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Taiter
05-29-2008, 06:13 PM
Dunno if anyone saw "All Bets Are Off" today, but Windhorst was on and said two basic things related to this topic: 1. The Cavs brass gets annoyed/angry when it is raised. 2. The core problem is that Lebron doesn't believe in any of the offenses Mike Brown has tried to install. It's not that Lebron is creating rancor in the huddle or making a scene, but he's breaking off plays and not executing the offense. He said that's why all the standing around occurs too. When you break off a play, it stops and all the other players don't know what to do.

I can't blame Lebron for this, either. It's on the COACH to get the players to buy in. I've seen the same thing in my own corporate IT job. If I'm working a process that I don't believe in, then no matter how much I try to follow it, something is going to be lacking. You knick at it around the edges, you procrastinate, you get a little lax, and eventually the process is abandoned or mutates beyond recognition. When you're in the battlefield, you tend to drop things that you don't find useful (whether you want to or not) and you retreat to what you do find useful. Now, what you find useful may be a limited palette (e.g. the ISO play), but the point is that Lebron is abandoning the offense for a reason.

It's obvious that the coaches have wildly succeeded in defensive buy-in. Per Windhorst, Lebron clearly believes in Brown's system on the D side. That's why Lebron talks about it all the time in interviews. That's why he's improved so much defensively. He also trusts in Brown's defensive adjustments.

So if it's been 3 years we're 0 for 3 with installing an offense that the franchise player believes in, then it's time to say "uncle" and get a quality asst in here. Let's go, Cavs front office. Quit messing around. How many more 75 point playoff performances do you need to see? :mad:

This imo is more critical than any player personnel changes we make this offseason. No offensive asst = no championship.

PIP
05-29-2008, 06:20 PM
An insubordinate KING JAMES is not good by any means.. This is unfortunate news to say the least...As his leadership skills takes a hit...

We found our problem... It's LeBron James..

hmmmm like they say: It's never the one you suspect :detective

Mac
05-29-2008, 06:32 PM
You couldn't tell?? It was obvious that is was Lebron...what kind of play is give me the ball at the top and let me go ISO.

cdt
05-29-2008, 06:36 PM
Trade LeBron it's the only way...lets get up there and get OJ Mayo :rolleyes:

MH3224
05-29-2008, 06:53 PM
What else was said on the show trades,free agents, etc.?

Taiter
05-29-2008, 06:57 PM
Organizational change anywhere is a tricky thing. I think it's one of the hardest things to do in a business environment. Most changes fail because the stuff being implemented isn't any good. However, you can have the best system in the world, one that's proven to work elsewhere, but if you can't get buy-in in your org it isn't going to work.

You can't blame the targets of the change when you're implementing change. That's a losers route for a leader, imo. People need to be sold before they buy-in and they have to see results to maintain that buyin. That's as true for our billion dollar franchise player as it is for the guy working at a factory or an IT shop.

Brown is 0 for 3 now on getting buyin on his offense. He still can't run a decent play out of a time out. It's time to go the assistant route.

BlueSeats626
05-29-2008, 07:02 PM
You couldn't tell?? It was obvious that is was Lebron...what kind of play is give me the ball at the top and let me go ISO.

Some people actually believe that Mike Brown tells Lebron to do that every play.

LeBron has been as big of a reason for the team's offensive stagnancy as any.

MH3224
05-29-2008, 07:04 PM
Some people actually believe that Mike Brown tells Lebron to do that every play.

LeBron has been as big of a reason for the team's offensive stagnancy as any.

I agree it also has to do with players and the coach. Mike has to make Lebron believe the offense will work, and also we have to have better players around because it doesnt seem like the offense is suited for the players we currently have.

3 Da Hard Way
05-29-2008, 07:10 PM
Windzy wouldnt exactly say what happen between Mike And Devin Brown at a practice:mad:

kblade
05-29-2008, 07:35 PM
hmmmm devin brown was prolly like this is some bullshit offense and im gonna go sit down because i know cleveland doesnt want me here next season and i dont want to be here the golf in cleveland sucks!

Jon
05-29-2008, 07:38 PM
Lack of anyone else on the team who can do anything with the ball is the main reason for the stagnancy. Most of all, lack of a quality PG.

3 Da Hard Way
05-29-2008, 07:39 PM
We could have God running point....If the plays arent good....Neither is the outcome....If he don't believe in his offense, Go get someones that he does believe in.

Karma
05-29-2008, 07:48 PM
This is going to be an interesting summer. Is it the system or the roster? Hopefully both get a facelift to a certain extent.

Smooth
05-29-2008, 08:09 PM
I definitely agree that their needs to be some type of offensive coach brought in next season, but how much could an offensive coach do with our roster, outside of LeBron? I mean really, let's not kid ourselves here... Our pieces around LeBron are pretty bad and I'd like to see how we would do with better pieces around him before saying that Mike Brown is the problem... He's definitely part of it, but the full blame doesn't rest on his shoulders... He can only do so much with what is given to him...

Karma
05-29-2008, 08:13 PM
Its a funny arguement that goes in circles.

Is it the roster?

Is it the coaching?

Do we need a point?

Do we need a 2nd scorer?

Do we need a big?

Do we need a new coach or just an assistant?

Which of the above is #1?

Does that #1 lead to solving all problems, or just expose another?

The George
05-29-2008, 08:19 PM
Some people actually believe that Mike Brown tells Lebron to do that every play.

LeBron has been as big of a reason for the team's offensive stagnancy as any.

LeBron is also the only reason we ever win a game period.

I don't blame LeBron...if he thinks the offense sucks or f he doesn't want to run a play for Larry Hughes or Wally Szcerbiak I dont blame him

If I were him I would get tired of that shit and say give me the damn ball and let me do it my damn self

Karma
05-29-2008, 08:25 PM
LeBron is also the only reason we ever win a game period.

I don't blame LeBron...if he thinks the offense sucks or f he doesn't want to run a play for Larry Hughes or Wally Szcerbiak I dont blame him

If I were him I would get tired of that shit and say give me the damn ball and let me do it my damn self

To also clear LeBron of any blame is also niave. Its hard to divide tha blame into accurate segments when there are many holes within the playing/coaching roster, but our superstar has some work to do when it comes to playing within a system.

Zubaz Redux
05-29-2008, 08:28 PM
Some people actually believe that Mike Brown tells Lebron to do that every play.

LeBron has been as big of a reason for the team's offensive stagnancy as any.

I don't think that anyone with any sense believes that Mike Brown tells LeBron to run the ISO play every time, so much as they believe he allows it to happen. This much cannot be disputed. And certainly any coach worth a damn has the ability to compel his players to run a given offense.

LeBron has proven himself capable of taking instruction and playing within a team concept on the defensive end. The question then becomes why would he feel the need to carry the burden alone at times on offense. Either the offense itself is ineffective garbage and LeBron knows it, or Coach Brown has constructed a brilliant offense and yet he is unable to make his players run it. The evidence points to a poorly structured offense, but Brown would be at fault under either scenario.

Simply put, it's time to get some coaching help on the offensive end. I hope the organization has the guts to get it done.

RchfldCavRaised
05-29-2008, 08:42 PM
When I cry MB is inept on offense, I am refering to whatever it is that good coaches do to have an effective offense... because MB hasnt had one yet.

Anything that happens on the court comes back to MB because he is the guy in the organization that has the power on a game to game basis to affect how well they play.

I bet that many here would rather have some of the Lakers support after Gasol, Bryant adn Odom???

Guess what, they all came in less heralded, with less potential than many of the supporting cast behind LeBron and Z (who is also not being maximized)

Sasha V, Walton, DFish, Turiaf, Farmar... they are all being put in a position to maximize the talents they have, and because of it, they look MUCH more valuable than supporting player that we have, who in my opinion are just as talented, and would be in another teams system, with a coach who truly understood that side of the ball.

In defense of Bron...

I distinctly remember when MB first got here, he himself said that this team would work on defense form sun up until sun down if thats what it took because thats what he felt was necessary to win in this league.

Little did we know...

So, during all that time when MB made defense his 80-90% focus, the players had to pick up the slack and carry the offense when the defense wasnt creating it for them.

If my wife focused solely on her career from day one, then after 2 years of fast food, she decides to start cooking everynight, I think I would be inclined to go grab the fast food the minute the smoke detector went off:chuckles:

The Voice
05-29-2008, 11:56 PM
When I cry MB is inept on offense, I am refering to whatever it is that good coaches do to have an effective offense... because MB hasnt had one yet.

Anything that happens on the court comes back to MB because he is the guy in the organization that has the power on a game to game basis to affect how well they play.

I bet that many here would rather have some of the Lakers support after Gasol, Bryant adn Odom???

Guess what, they all came in less heralded, with less potential than many of the supporting cast behind LeBron and Z (who is also not being maximized)

Sasha V, Walton, DFish, Turiaf, Farmar... they are all being put in a position to maximize the talents they have, and because of it, they look MUCH more valuable than supporting player that we have, who in my opinion are just as talented, and would be in another teams system, with a coach who truly understood that side of the ball.

In defense of Bron...

I distinctly remember when MB first got here, he himself said that this team would work on defense form sun up until sun down if thats what it took because thats what he felt was necessary to win in this league.

Little did we know...

So, during all that time when MB made defense his 80-90% focus, the players had to pick up the slack and carry the offense when the defense wasnt creating it for them.

If my wife focused solely on her career from day one, then after 2 years of fast food, she decides to start cooking everynight, I think I would be inclined to go grab the fast food the minute the smoke detector went off:chuckles:

Are you honestly saying that the Lakers supporting cast of Kobe, is worse then LeBrons?

If you are, you are on crack...

Jon
05-30-2008, 12:19 AM
Its a funny arguement that goes in circles.

Is it the roster?

Is it the coaching?

Do we need a point?

Do we need a 2nd scorer?

Do we need a big?

Do we need a new coach or just an assistant?

Which of the above is #1?

Does that #1 lead to solving all problems, or just expose another?


#1: A system
#2: Someone to run your system (typically a pg)
#3: Other personnel needed to run the system

#1 and #2 can be swapped

You could be the best offensive coach in the league or the worst and this simple formula would be the same.

There's no reason to blame LeBron. He's *trying* to win. He's doing what he's doing because he thinks it gives us our best chance.

MYoung23
05-30-2008, 01:22 AM
The Cavaliers averaged 102ppg the first 15 games of the season with Pavlovic missing training camp, Daniel Gibson starting and Larry Hughes missing 10 games basically.

They did because they pushed the ball in early offense, had shooters on the floor, got good shots and moved the ball.

James gets hurt game 16 and Mike Brown shuts down all those offensive changes like a virgin putting on a chastity belts. They became a walk it up, jumpshooting team that doesnt fit their personnel. Their shooters are supposed to be complimentary not the focus.

The more Mike Brown keeps putting his grubby little fingers on things the worse the Cavaliers wind up.

They were worse again this year in key statistical categories like eFG%. They were the worse 2pt shooting team in the NBA.

But, hey if you Brownites want to keep making excuses for the Maurice Carthon of basketball keep drinking the Kool-Aid or not wearing your sunglasses.

http://www.art.org/exhibitions/archives/2007/images/Elusive%20Evidence%20images/they_Live-obey.jpg
Mike Brown is a good offensive coach. OBEY.

Rick Astley
05-30-2008, 01:42 AM
That's creepy but point taken.

KI4MVP
05-30-2008, 07:33 AM
We could have God running point....If the plays arent good....Neither is the outcome....If he don't believe in his offense, Go get someones that he does believe in.

Who? He has D'Antoni on team usa and the longer that went on last year, the more TeamUSA ran the same offense of LeBron with the ball at the top - and it was VERY effective. The more they went to it, the better we played.

It has also been very effective in late game situations in the regular season here

http://www.82games.com/0708/07CLE13E.HTM

with us scoring at the rate of 117.0 points per 48 minutes while allowing just 85.6 points per 48 minutes.

The problem is, it wasn't nearly as effective in the playoffs this year

http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/07CLE8E.HTM

which is one reason we aren't still playing (the change in Andy being another reason) - we lost two games to boston that we normally win. Perhaps because defenses adjusted, perhaps because LeBron played too many minutes, perhaps because there wasn't the comfort level between teammates yet that we had before the trade as crunch time in last year's playoffs were a different story.

http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/06CLE8E.HTM

scoring 113.7 points per 48 minutes while allowing just 75.6

Green Lantern
05-30-2008, 08:09 AM
Our pieces around LeBron are pretty bad and I'd like to see how we would do with better pieces around him before saying that Mike Brown is the problem...

Actually even if the parts around James are sub-par..running plays will still help..screens/backdoors/pick-n-roll and whatever else U want to run will show BALL-MOVEMENT ..which the Cavs don't show hardly at all.

Wes
05-30-2008, 08:44 AM
You couldn't tell?? It was obvious that is was Lebron...what kind of play is give me the ball at the top and let me go ISO.

Actually, in Delonte West's post game interviews after he made his big 3-pointer against Washington, he was asked if that was the play that was called in the huddle and he said that Mike Brown told them to "give da ball to LeBron and git da heck out da way."

Now, I'm not saying that Mike Brown does this all of the time, but he felt comfortable doing it during crunch time of a tight playoff game.

For me, it comes down to this: You're the coach, so you're in charge. I don't care if it is LeBron James, or DaJuan Wagner. It is your job to get the players to run your system, and if they refuse, then you sit them down, even if your team sucks without them. Once a coach loses the respect of his players, even if it's just on one side of the ball, it's really hard to get it back.

The George
05-30-2008, 08:46 AM
To also clear LeBron of any blame is also niave. Its hard to divide tha blame into accurate segments when there are many holes within the playing/coaching roster, but our superstar has some work to do when it comes to playing within a system.



Get him a system that makes sense like....geez....heaven forbid....we actually push the ball up the floor

AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I know it's scary but maybe Mike just simply harps on the entire team to simply push the ball more often and I say our offense is automatically better

Is LeBron perfect? No of course not...But until he has a legit number two scorer next to him or until Mike changes our sets we are gonna be forced to have to watch Bronnie play 1 on 5

If I were leBron I wouldnt trust anyone on my team right now to create offense

B Mac
05-30-2008, 10:27 AM
Yes the beginning of this seasons offense was a thing of beauty and definately made for some exciting basketball, but our defense was a joke and it had to be fixed. The reason we dont run is because it just leads to easy buckets for the other team right back. Simple as that. Im 100% fine with us being a slow it down half court style team, because that's what wins playoff games. Obviously the offense needs some major work, but the fundamentals to me are solid.

Now, as for everyone saying its the supporting casts fault, I say BS. All of these guys have been playing bball their whole lives. At some point in their career these guys have learned how to set and use screens, and the guards how to make a pass into the post or to a cutter slashing to the basket. Even the worst NBA player knows how to do that. Do you honestly think having LeBron run off a couple solid screens and coming across to the low post where a guard delivers him the ball is something anyone on our team is incapable of? Hell, most of us talentless assclowns could do that.

That to me is not a question of talent, its a question of... why the hell arent we doing that? Setting screens, running around them, and having the ball delivered to you is not rocket science, but yet for some reason this team does not do it. We've seen over and over again if you get the ball into the post then good things happen, yet the only time we ever do that is in the first 5 minutes of the game, and the only guy we dump it down to is Z. I dont care if guys have no post moves, just simply getting the ball in the post gives defenses a different look and makes them react. That is simple basketball 101, yet again its something our team doesnt do. It has nothing to do with our bigs not being able to get good post position, or our guards not being able to deliver an entry past, we just dont do it. That was one of the things I really liked about Wally's game when he got here, was that he wasnt afraid to post up and see what came of it, and that was usually when he was at his best... but all too soon that aspect completely vanished, and he was turned into nothing more than a spot up shooter.... Why? Was it Wally that stopped doing that, or was it the coaching staff, or was it LeBron?

My point is, we have guys that are fully capable of performing basic basketball moves, no matter how much we make fun of guys, they can do it. It's just a question of why arent we? All of these guys have been the best player on their team at some point in their lives, so they know how to play ball, its just that something is clearly wrong. Bringing in the best scorer in the world wont help if the trend continues. Enough is enough, its time to fix it.

Spectre
05-30-2008, 10:41 AM
Part of the mark of a good coach is realizing when help is needed.

Brown has tried to coach an offense for three years now and has failed to build up anything substantial or consistent. When you have one of the best players in the league who is a rare offensive weapon, even with a mediocre supporting cast, you sure as heck should rank better than 24th in scoring after 3 years of work.

This situation reminds me a lot of Bill Belichick's. The man had always been able to coach a defense but was too bull-headed when he was in Cleveland to let someone handle the offense and we never became anything as a result. Then, when he went to New England, he swallowed his pride, hired Weis and voila. Brown has done wonders for our defense but it's his achilles heel that's keeping us back.

IMO, there's no reason for Ferry or Brown to get mad when someone suggests an offensive assistant. The emperor has no clothes, Mike Brown can't coach an offense, and everyone in Cleveland knows it (including them I'd imagine... or I at least hope so). It's about time Brown and Ferry sucked it up, brought in some help and watched the team soar.

I'm sure it's a pride issue, but I'll say this much in those regards - I'd rather hold up the championship trophy with an assistant by my side than sit at home in June by myself watching someone else do it.

Jon
05-30-2008, 10:58 AM
Actually even if the parts around James are sub-par..running plays will still help..screens/backdoors/pick-n-roll and whatever else U want to run will show BALL-MOVEMENT ..which the Cavs don't show hardly at all.

They do... it just didn't lead to anything against a solid defensive club like the Celtics.

Against the Wiz and their junk defense? It worked well at times because they were constantly overloading and tilting the floor towards James.

An offense that (a) does things the defense cannot counter or (b) does not anticipate is an effective offense. The problem is that (a) depends on the superiority of your players and (b) on the cluelessness of the defense.

So yeah, Delonte was effective when Boston let him go left. Z was a terror when Boston left him open for jumpers or left him alone in single-coverage in the post. But give them credit. They're not idiots. They didn't keep repeating the same mistakes.

We still took them to the brink because OUR DEFENSE made them look even worse and Allen and Pierce struggled ... unfortunately we had our own health issues with Ben, Andy, Gibson, Sasha and who knows how much Z and LeBron were effected by their back spasms?

Jon
05-30-2008, 11:28 AM
Why? Was it Wally that stopped doing that, or was it the coaching staff, or was it LeBron?

Why? Because he was putting up 12 shots in the 1st quarter alone and missing most of them. Yeah, he was getting open, getting inside .. AND THEN BLOWING THE SHOT.

His teammates had to shut him out of the offense because he was ineffective - but yeah - he was terrific at getting open.

We got the ball inside to Andy and Ben, and they were terrible for the most part.

Paul Pierce was even playing off LeBron in order to cover the entry pass to Z. Once they started paying more attention to Z his post game was shut down.

IMO, it's all about having offensive balance. Having a scheme and running plays doesn't matter unless you have the personnel that allow you to go from a position of strength that forces the defense to react that leads you to an even stronger position. Boston does this, almost to a fault where they're accused of over-passing; but we don't have the balance.

So Pierce can play off LeBron because he couldn't hit his jumper. Likewise you can run all the pick and rolls you want but if the guy rolling to the hoop can't finish, or the guy with ball can't deliver a pass under pressure it only hurts the offense.

When you're not improving the situation by running plays, all you're doing is burning up energy, risking turnovers, and ultimately still have to rely on LeBron to create something but with less time on the clock.

Taiter
05-30-2008, 11:52 PM
Boy, I wonder, if we'd hired that offensive asst last year, would we be going to the Finals against a team I think this Cavs team can beat? I'd say yes, and despite a flawed lineup.

cav jvl
05-31-2008, 12:55 AM
Hitting open shots helps

Jon
05-31-2008, 03:21 AM
Boy, I wonder, if we'd hired that offensive asst last year, would we be going to the Finals against a team I think this Cavs team can beat? I'd say yes, and despite a flawed lineup.

You're probably thinking if we just had a little more offensive efficiency it would have put us over the top, but it doesn't necessarily work that way.

The team was broken up at the trade deadline and had to be stitched back together. Mike Brown of course focused on getting the defense up to snuff, and of course the offense suffered. If they had instead focused on bringing the offense up to snuff, it's likely the defense would have suffered.

Heck, just look at the Piston's getting knocked out again. They had Larry Brown's defensive system and then added Saunder's offensive system. Their defense has never been as good and their offense ultimately sputters against superior defenses.

KI4MVP
05-31-2008, 09:31 AM
The Cavaliers averaged 102ppg the first 15 games of the season with Pavlovic missing training camp, Daniel Gibson starting and Larry Hughes missing 10 games basically.

They did because they pushed the ball in early offense, had shooters on the floor, got good shots and moved the ball.

And our record was just 9-6 and we had already lost 4 games where we scored over 100 points, something that only happened 4 times ALL SEASON the year before. And 9-6 was only after we won the last 3 games with scores of 111-108, 111-106 and 109-104.

The offense looked so good early because that was the focus of training camp. The result was our defense took a major hit, thus the focus returned back to defense and by the playoffs we were back to playing defense at an elite level. The Piston's didn't defense the celtics as well as we did.

In game 7 we scored 92 points on 45% shooting, including 52 in the second half. That should have been enough to win a playoff game and advance. The problem was we couldn't stop Pierce and we let PJ Brown out hustle us on about 3 fourth quarter plays.

Also, the immediate drop in scoring after that 9-6 start wasn't because we suddenly abandoned our offense, it was because the team simply couldn't score with LeBron out as with Larry also out, LeBron was our only playmaker. They both come back and we immediately win 118-105.

King James MVP
05-31-2008, 10:05 AM
Jordan ignored his offensive schemes all the time in the late 80's, and it wasn't until Pippen and Grant blossomed that MJ really started to believe in the triangle. Even in their first championship season in '91, it was said that Jordan broke out of the offense about half the time, especially in late game situations. LeBron has been handling the ball 30 feet from the basket pretty much his whole career, and he needs guys he can trust to get him the ball in better scoring positions to truly be successful. That falls more on the coach and front office than LeBron himself, IMO.

Splitz
05-31-2008, 10:35 AM
You're probably thinking if we just had a little more offensive efficiency it would have put us over the top, but it doesn't necessarily work that way.

The team was broken up at the trade deadline and had to be stitched back together. Mike Brown of course focused on getting the defense up to snuff, and of course the offense suffered. If they had instead focused on bringing the offense up to snuff, it's likely the defense would have suffered.

Heck, just look at the Piston's getting knocked out again. They had Larry Brown's defensive system and then added Saunder's offensive system. Their defense has never been as good and their offense ultimately sputters against superior defenses.

How many seasons is it going to take you to concede to the fact that Mike Brown NEVER gets the offense up to snuff. The trade deadline never made a damn difference. We added offensive firepower and we still faltered. Wally had to force the action because I'm sure he has never played in such an elementary offense before with no discipline. It is pretty telling when a guy who makes his career as a shooter even struggles on your squad. Logic would dictate that a team with such a defense magnet as Lebron would get guys open in the right position. There was no attempt at an offensive system for the third year in a row. You act like improvements on both sides of the court are mutually exclusive. A good coach can get both off the ground and running. The Pistons faltered because they are hobbled, still have no superstar to take over, are a year older, and have to deal with a cancer like Rasheed.

RchfldCavRaised
05-31-2008, 01:29 PM
Wally had to force the action because I'm sure he has never played in such an elementary offense before with no discipline. It is pretty telling when a guy who makes his career as a shooter even struggles on your squad. Logic would dictate that a team with such a defense magnet as Lebron would get guys open in the right position.

And this, ladies and gentleman, is the single reason why we havent seen FAs and vets dying to jump on the LBJ train to the championship.

Maximus
05-31-2008, 02:24 PM
Wally had to force the action because I'm sure he has never played in such an elementary offense before with no discipline. It is pretty telling when a guy who makes his career as a shooter even struggles on your squad. Logic would dictate that a team with such a defense magnet as Lebron would get guys open in the right position.

Whoa, let's not re-write history. I don't dispute we have issues on the offensive end. BUT, Wally's problem was he just couldn't hit shots. Plain and simple, he had WIDE OPEN looks and fired bricks majority of the time. It wasn't the offense or him having to force things that was a problem, for whatever reason, HE WAS THE PROBLEM.

NarlCavs
05-31-2008, 02:58 PM
I still don't know why Wally missed so many shots. He has been a quality shooter his whole career and had been shooting well all season in Seattle before coming to the Cavs.
The question is why did that happen and why did things change after coming to Cleveland? Was it a slump, the system, coaching, his teammates?

I do know the Cavs have very little rhythm and flow offensively. Some players need that to perform effectively and efficiently.

CzBoobie
05-31-2008, 03:14 PM
It's just Cleveland...

Splitz
05-31-2008, 03:19 PM
Whoa, let's not re-write history. I don't dispute we have issues on the offensive end. BUT, Wally's problem was he just couldn't hit shots. Plain and simple, he had WIDE OPEN looks and fired bricks majority of the time. It wasn't the offense or him having to force things that was a problem, for whatever reason, HE WAS THE PROBLEM.

Ok, well it could be an exageration to a certain extent but case after case of shooters coming here and struggling has me searching for the cause. Was the spacing the problem? Lack of dribble penetration from anyone other than Lebron? Lack of ball movement around the perimeter? (I think so). A lot of what I saw from Wally was pressing, getting the ball out of position, and trying to do too much. I don't know what caused him to press out of any of the factors that I previously mentioned but something caused a change when he came here.

Dirk Gently
05-31-2008, 04:19 PM
I'm not sure what it came out after injuries and the trade and everything, but I know that during the all star break, the Cavs had something like 2 of the top 5 three point shooters in the league. Certainly the cavs offense hasn't effected Boobie, as he has consistently been one of the best shooters in the league. I really don't understand the mystery some people claim about shooters getting worse in Cleveland.

Damon Jones and D-Yell got worse, but that was compared to career years for them in contract years. They were also getting older and getting less playing time on Cleveland than they did on their previous teams. Damon Jones is still an efficient 3 point shooter and still one of the best in the league (he just doesn't get much playing time because he doesn't play any defense). Many players performance starts to go down when they get older, or after a contract year, there's no mystery there.

So it comes down to Wally, who performed worse in Cleveland. And it was obvious to anyone watching that he was forcing things, and aiming the ball. That led to confidence problems and only made the problem worse. A better offensive coach might have helped, but the coaching certainly didn't do anything to make him miss those open shots. It was all psychological and self induced.

Smooth
05-31-2008, 05:20 PM
Here's to hoping Flip Saunders is fired and comes home!

HIP-HIP HOORAY!

:woohoo: :cheers: :fingersx: :spin: :woot:

Benny08302
05-31-2008, 05:22 PM
I do think there's something weird about how shooters come to Cleveland and forget how to shoot... bremer, wally, marshall... i don't know if they get out of their comfort zone (always getting the ball late on the shot clock after standing around..., maybe?[I really don't know, that isn't sarcasm])

that being said, I wouldn't mind flip saunders sittign next to coach mike next year

Jon
05-31-2008, 08:57 PM
The thing is, shooters are supposed to get better when they have someone creating wide open shots for them. Gibson and Damon are at their best when LeBron keeps hitting them in the same spot - they find the range and the ball starts going down - but when the D isn't selling out trying to defend LeBron everything gets trickier.

IMO LeBron's ability to read defenses and react on the fly is a great strength in his game, but it's also a weakness because it allows the defense to dictate how we try to score. We can't build an offensive rhythm when we can't dictate what our offense is going to do. That's why we can't just fill the floor with shooters. We either need a PG run a more traditional offense -or- we need multi-talented players who can take advantage of the attention LeBron draws to break down the D.

So if we could get Billups and Hamilton to accompany Saunders to Cleveland ... I think we'd set.

Man Called X
06-01-2008, 01:06 AM
Here's to hoping Flip Saunders is fired and comes home!

HIP-HIP HOORAY!

:woohoo: :cheers: :fingersx: :spin: :woot:

Why in the hell would I want anything to do with a coach who CANNOT get past the Conference Finals?

Numbers Guy
06-01-2008, 01:30 AM
**** Flip.. Hire Mark Jackson!
:spin:

Wheaties
06-01-2008, 01:57 AM
The thing is, shooters are supposed to get better when they have someone creating wide open shots for them. Gibson and Damon are at their best when LeBron keeps hitting them in the same spot - they find the range and the ball starts going down - but when the D isn't selling out trying to defend LeBron everything gets trickier.

IMO LeBron's ability to read defenses and react on the fly is a great strength in his game, but it's also a weakness because it allows the defense to dictate how we try to score. We can't build an offensive rhythm when we can't dictate what our offense is going to do. That's why we can't just fill the floor with shooters. We either need a PG run a more traditional offense -or- we need multi-talented players who can take advantage of the attention LeBron draws to break down the D.

So if we could get Billups and Hamilton to accompany Saunders to Cleveland ... I think we'd set.

Really good point... there was one point in the boston series where he faking drives, but they were not leaving the shooters and we were left with a shot with .00987 to go on the 24 second clock or something

I do understand why Paul Silas started him at the point position when he first started though... his quarterbacking ability is better than a lot of starting point guards right now


I would say at the very least we need a wing with driving ability... they say Larry Hughes (the national pundits say this crap but they just read cliff notes.. and cram study)... anyhow they say Larry wasin't a good fit for Lebron because the are both "slashers"... yeah right' Larry didn't drive hardly enough. That is what made me so sick watching him... jumper after jumper and alot of time clanks.. but if there is somebody breaking down the defense from the other side then it really opens things up for everybody....

pippen and jordan were both "slashers" ... (not to harp on that tired Batman and Robin analogy)


...anyhow im really pulling for them to land CDR, if they dont move up... that guy seems to have the scoring ability and intangibles... and basketball IQ

If u get the right player (intangibles are key... like Daniel Gibson and Rodney Stuckey then they actually can impact the team early on)

theSwayze
06-01-2008, 02:05 AM
[QUOTE=Taiter;251732]Organizational change anywhere is a tricky thing. I think it's one of the hardest things to do in a business environment. Most changes fail because the stuff being implemented isn't any good. However, you can have the best system in the world, one that's proven to work elsewhere, but if you can't get buy-in in your org it isn't going to work.

You can't blame the targets of the change when you're implementing change. That's a losers route for a leader, imo. People need to be sold before they buy-in and they have to see results to maintain that buyin. That's as true for our billion dollar franchise player as it is for the guy working at a factory or an IT shop.


CAN I GET AN AMEN FROM THE CONGREGATION!!!!!
I SAID CAN I GET AN AMEN FROM THE CONGREGATION!!!
:yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay:
:yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay:
:yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay:
:yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay:


TAITER TAITER PLS COME SAVE MY IT FROM ITSELF!!!

I think I need to copy paste that to my VP

Smooth
06-01-2008, 02:34 PM
Why in the hell would I want anything to do with a coach who CANNOT get past the Conference Finals?

He won't be the head coach here so I don't see why that should be a problem... All I want is his offense and overall experience... Mike Brown has proven he can get past the ECF's and with a good offensive mind next to him, I think it'll be a lot easier for him... And with a good defensive mind next to Flip and taking the load off his shoulders, I think it'll be a lot easier for him too... It's a win-win situation... Although I'm sure we're not the only ones that will want him and I bet he'll get some looks for a head coaching job somewhere, probably in Phoenix...

aaronr
06-01-2008, 02:44 PM
I'd love to see Flip as Brown's assistant but there's a snowball's chance in hell of that transpiring either because Brown isn't secure enough mentally to let a potential replacement get that close to the team or because Flip wouldn't want to step down to assistant at this stage of his career. Of course, if Danny and Flip had an understanding sotto voce ...

Blue Bomber
06-02-2008, 03:08 AM
It's really weird that the only shooter to successfully keep his shot after coming to Cleveland is Boobie. Most likely because our system is the only NBA offensive system that he's known. The veterans like 'Yell, Wally, Damon etc. can just never get into a groove for an extended period of time. It scares me thinking about a possible trade for Mike Miller or Michael Redd, when they would only be brought into our broken offense and forced to only be more expensive versions of 'Yell/Wally/Damon and their spot-up shooting ways. :(

Rick Astley
06-02-2008, 05:57 AM
I believe it was debunked that Redd is just a spot-up shooter.

http://www.realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?p=251782

http://blog.cleveland.com/cavaliers_corner/2008/05/michael_redd_not_just_a_spotup.html

Taiter
06-25-2008, 02:56 PM
I haven't been following team news closely of late, but is there any further info on whether the Cavs are seeking an ass't coach who can help install a real offense? Or is it sounding like it's not gonna happen? I still think this decision is at least on par with the roster moves.

DeeThree
06-25-2008, 02:59 PM
I haven't been following team news closely of late, but is there any further info on whether the Cavs are seeking an ass't coach who can help install a real offense? Or is it sounding like it's not gonna happen? I still think this decision is at least on par with the roster moves.

Doubt it, Mike Brown doesn't want to give up any power...

World B ThAreee
06-25-2008, 03:27 PM
Nothing like keeping all of your power until someone takes it all from you.

The Oi
06-25-2008, 03:53 PM
I'm getting more and more pessimistic about this team as the days go on.

Splitz
06-25-2008, 04:56 PM
Since Ferry is seemingly not going to force an offensive coordinator of sorts on Mike Brown due to this control issue then it leads me to believe that Danny thinks we are one or two solid pieces away from having a good offense despite that. If this is the case then his recent interview about not pursuing trades actively seems very bogus. If indeed he is of the mindset that a Michael Redd would instantly catapult this offense then he better get on it. If he is unable to pull off a move like this and we are stuck with the same roster than I will lead an all out revolution of cavs fans with pitch forks to stand outside his door. If we have the same team plus a rookie or two then we better pursue an offensive mind to utilize what we've got because Mike has had time and failed offensively in that regard. Then there is the argument that our offensive philosophy will cause anyone that we add to the roster to have the worst year of his career.

Jon
06-25-2008, 05:22 PM
Every attempt to implement a new offense has been sabotaged and short circuited - primarily by Larry Hughes and his injuries, but also by Eric Snow running out of gas, Gibson not being ready to step-in and start, and Wesley/Devin Brown/Damon Jones not being the answer.

If we can actually come out of training camp with a coherent offense and keep the starting lineup together ... the offense will improve significantly even if we make no deals and don't implement a new system.

Redz West is Best
06-25-2008, 05:24 PM
Lack of anyone else on the team who can do anything with the ball is the main reason for the stagnancy. Most of all, lack of a quality PG.

how does this fit into the equation of the post? If Lebron is breaking off plays then that either means he has the ball or that the guy who is supposed to get the ball (Lebron) isn't running the play to get himself the ball. How is that anything to do with the Point Guard?

How many times last half season did we see Delonte, Boobie, etc wait for the play to happen and then after about 5-7 seconds of not seeing the play being run, decide to make a move on the defender. Sometimes I thought it was them not being aggressive but this discussion just makes me believe that the Point was merely trying to run the play and then because the play was broken, had to improvise.

Can I give a negative thanks?

Redz West is Best
06-25-2008, 05:25 PM
The thing is, shooters are supposed to get better when they have someone creating wide open shots for them. Gibson and Damon are at their best when LeBron keeps hitting them in the same spot - they find the range and the ball starts going down - but when the D isn't selling out trying to defend LeBron everything gets trickier.

IMO LeBron's ability to read defenses and react on the fly is a great strength in his game, but it's also a weakness because it allows the defense to dictate how we try to score. We can't build an offensive rhythm when we can't dictate what our offense is going to do. That's why we can't just fill the floor with shooters. We either need a PG run a more traditional offense -or- we need multi-talented players who can take advantage of the attention LeBron draws to break down the D.

So if we could get Billups and Hamilton to accompany Saunders to Cleveland ... I think we'd set.


Not all shooters are good at shooting wide open. Some rather just need to be in rhythm whether they are being guarded closely or not.

jason436
06-25-2008, 05:26 PM
There was a stretch of what a couple games where we were healthy and the offensive was looking better. Of course then the injuries hit.

Redz West is Best
06-25-2008, 05:27 PM
There was a stretch of what a couple games where we were healthy and the offensive was looking better. Of course then the injuries hit.

I agree. I want to see this team healthy and see what happens.

Jon
06-25-2008, 05:45 PM
Not all shooters are good at shooting wide open. Some rather just need to be in rhythm whether they are being guarded closely or not.

Running plays that get shooters in position where they like to shoot and getting them the ball at a time and in the spot where they like to start their motion is what POINT GUARDS are supposed to do.

Jon
06-25-2008, 05:54 PM
how does this fit into the equation of the post? If Lebron is breaking off plays then that either means he has the ball or that the guy who is supposed to get the ball (Lebron) isn't running the play to get himself the ball. How is that anything to do with the Point Guard?

How many times last half season did we see Delonte, Boobie, etc wait for the play to happen and then after about 5-7 seconds of not seeing the play being run, decide to make a move on the defender. Sometimes I thought it was them not being aggressive but this discussion just makes me believe that the Point was merely trying to run the play and then because the play was broken, had to improvise.

Can I give a negative thanks?

Our offense this season was pretty simple: Drive and Kick, make the Hockey Pass, Ball movement, and player movement.

West and Gibson aren't supposed to be "waiting for the play to happen". They're supposed to be "driving and kicking". Far too often they just pushed the ball off to someone else who did nothing with it.

Of course LeBron broke off the "play" .. the "play" wasn't achieving anything because West, Gibson, Sasha, Wally, etc, couldn't break down their defender. At times when West was aggressive everything worked better, but Boston's D adjusted. Go figure.