PDA

View Full Version : Five observations: LeBron getting rest, Wally getting back in groove



Thunder
10-14-2008, 05:05 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/insider/columns/story?page=CavaliersObservations-081014&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2ftrainingcamp08%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fpa ge%3dCavaliersObservations-081014

Sorry to mislead you, but it's ESPN Insider by Brian Windhorst. Can any one post the entire article?

Wally World
10-14-2008, 05:54 PM
yeah...We will finally see good old Wally World!!!!

Mdog1
10-14-2008, 06:58 PM
I hope this is the Wally of old putting up 15 ppg.

Mdog1
10-14-2008, 07:08 PM
Can an insider please post the article here? Rep for the first one :)

Sir Charles Barkley
10-14-2008, 08:51 PM
just look on realgm or hoopsworld for it

Karma
10-14-2008, 09:01 PM
I believe it should read Wally getting Ray Allen back in his groove. Wally just isn't a starter at the 2 guard. Too slow. There may be the occasional matchup he can handle, but for the most part he'll be a hinderance.

clarkmac0
10-14-2008, 09:28 PM
1. The Cavs and LeBron have learned from 2006
If there was anything resembling a slump in LeBron James' career, it was the first few months of the 2006-07 season. Coming off a demanding summer in the Far East with Team USA at the World Championships, James seemed to suffer a hangover. He still had plenty of good performances but he routinely dealt with low-energy nights and often appeared to be out of gas in fourth quarters of close games. He found a second wind after the All-Star break but his numbers dipped in every category and he was left off the All-NBA First Team.

Now he is coming off another such summer after playing in the Olympics. This camp, coach Mike Brown has cut back on the length and intensity of his preseason practices and held only one contact workout during two-a-days. James was held out of almost all contact work in the first 10 days of camp and Brown has vowed to keep his minutes under 40 per game in the early going, which has never happened in James' career.

Cavs Camp

The Cavs didn't make themselves over during the offseason. Still, LeBron likes his team's title chances. And for good reason. Brian Windhorst

• Hollinger: Cavs thin behind James
2. The front line is a little worrisome
The Cavs still boast what they believe is one of the best frontcourt rotations in the East with former All-Stars Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Ben Wallace and versatile backup Anderson Varejao. However, Ilgauskas discovered after last season that he has a degenerative disk in his lower back and spent three weeks in Vancouver in the offseason working with a specialist on how to deal with the issue.

Wallace, who is now 34, had back issues last season and is having some more problems with it in camp. Varejao skipped playing for Brazil over the summer to try to heal a lingering ankle injury that he admits still isn't 100 percent.

The Cavs had to give up the rock-solid reserve Joe Smith to get Mo Williams and now have journeyman Lorenzen Wright and unproven rookies J.J. Hickson and Darnell Jackson as backups. If things don't go perfectly, this could turn from a strength into a weakness very quickly.

3. Wally Szczerbiak's shooting touch
When the Cavs picked up Szczerbiak at the trade deadline from the Sonics he was in the midst of quietly having a strong season. He was averaging 13.1 points and shooting 46 percent as Seattle's sixth man. But he immediately became a starter for the Cavs and didn't seem to adjust well. He averaged just 8.2 points and shot just 36 percent despite getting numerous wide-open looks as defenses clamped down on James. He never admitted the pressure of going from the worst team in the league to a starter on a contender got to him, but it certainly looked like it.

So far in camp he's been much more at ease and his jumper is more consistent. He also may return to a more comfortable role of coming off the bench. He needs a good season; he's in the final year of his contract.

4. Daniel Gibson's maturation
Over the summer, Gibson fired his agent and he handled his own contract talks, a heavy undertaking for a 22-year-old. Eventually he agreed to a five-year, $21 million deal. He also lost some of that baby-face look and reshaped his body, working over the summer on developing his core muscles so he'd be able to absorb hits better.

He noticed last season that teams weren't leaving him open on the perimeter as much, though he still shot 44 percent on 3-pointers and averaged 11 points a game. In the past he didn't trust going into the paint because of his size and an ankle injury that limited him both offensively and defensively. Now he "feels tighter" and more durable and the ankle has been fixed by a surgeon. He's hoping to show a more complete game in his third season.

5. Darnell Jackson's toughness
He's just a rookie, but after four years at Kansas, Jackson and James are almost the same age. He's also a former high school football star. All of it shows. Though respectful, he hasn't backed down once to the veterans even when Wallace started hitting him with elbows in practice to test him or he was required to put on diapers in the locker room as a hazing ritual.

Coach Mike Brown has raved about him day after day in practice and called him one of the best screen setters he's ever coached. He's an undersized power forward at 6-foot-8 and he likely won't see much playing time early on, but there is no questioning the impression he's leaving. Every year there is a second-round pick who surprises and the Cavs are hopeful they've found a blue-collar banger, which they backed up by giving Jackson a three-year contract.

samtheman67
10-14-2008, 09:50 PM
I believe it should read Wally getting Ray Allen back in his groove. Wally just isn't a starter at the 2 guard. Too slow. There may be the occasional matchup he can handle, but for the most part he'll be a hinderance.

What happened in the playoffs Karma? what you're saying has no fact backing up, Im sorry but get off sasha's high horse. Sasha's had 4 terrible years and 1 decent half of a year.

Sir Charles Barkley
10-14-2008, 10:09 PM
What happened in the playoffs Karma? what you're saying has no fact backing up, Im sorry but get off sasha's high horse. Sasha's had 4 terrible years and 1 decent half of a year.

well wally didnt really have to do much. ray was just plain missin all of his shots. he was in a slump, just like lebron was

samtheman67
10-14-2008, 10:21 PM
Great players don't go thru slumps they face great defense.. Basketballs not like baseball .. At least not in my belief. You can shot terribly for a couple games but in the end top players score, unless the defense is consistantly top notch. I.E see Kobe and Lebron vs the Celtics. Also see the cavs defense vs the celtics and how the shitty lakers d played the celtics..

RchfldCavRaised
10-14-2008, 10:45 PM
I believe it should read Wally getting Ray Allen back in his groove. Wally just isn't a starter at the 2 guard. Too slow. There may be the occasional matchup he can handle, but for the most part he'll be a hinderance.

I agree here. Wally singlehandedly helped Ray Allen get ready for teh regular season tonight. They can shut Ray down for the rest of the Preseason and just let him torch Wally on Opening night if Wally starts then.

I dont understand why people are holding out so much hope for Wally at teh 2.

HE IS NOT A 2 GUARD. he should only play 2 out of desperation. He is a career SF. He lacks speed to keep up with 40 year old Ray Allen even.

Please, let the dream go. Wally at teh 2 next to Mo at the 2 equals the worst defensive back court outside of whoever starts next to Steve Nash.

samtheman67
10-14-2008, 10:48 PM
I agree here. Wally singlehandedly helped Ray Allen get ready for teh regular season tonight. They can shut Ray down for the rest of the Preseason and just let him torch Wally on Opening night if Wally starts then.

I dont understand why people are holding out so much hope for Wally at teh 2.

HE IS NOT A 2 GUARD. he should only play 2 out of desperation. He is a career SF. He lacks speed to keep up with 40 year old Ray Allen even.

Please, let the dream go. Wally at teh 2 next to Mo at the 2 equals the worst defensive back court outside of whoever starts next to Steve Nash.
I agree with wally being a natural SF.. but in our defensive system he can pass.. whereas Sasha is just terrible at everything..

In a dream world I'd like a 2 guard who isn't a midget .. Dwest
Isn't a slower natural 3 .. Wally
Isn't plain terrible at everything.. Sasha

Karma
10-14-2008, 10:54 PM
What happened in the playoffs Karma? what you're saying has no fact backing up, Im sorry but get off sasha's high horse. Sasha's had 4 terrible years and 1 decent half of a year.

What the hell did my post have to do with Sasha?

I said Wally is too slow to play the two guard. Paired with Mo, it is a horrible defensive pairing. This isn't the Wally of the Timberwolves. I just dont want him starting at the two.

Didn't realise Ray missing wide open J's was nothing to do with Wally. He works hard, but that only gets you so far.

Again, this had nothing to do with Sasha.

Cavatt
10-14-2008, 11:12 PM
I thought wally looked great. He was keeping up pretty good with a Ray Allen that is healthy and has something to Prove. I am not sure if anyone noticed, but wally really destroyed Ray Allen in our series in the playoffs. In this game, it was a 3 point contest between, Wally and Allen. Allen def won the speed challenge, but Wally can keep up that good 3pt % he had tonight. Allen can't keep up that speed over so many games.

samtheman67
10-14-2008, 11:19 PM
What the hell did my post have to do with Sasha?

I said Wally is too slow to play the two guard. Paired with Mo, it is a horrible defensive pairing. This isn't the Wally of the Timberwolves. I just dont want him starting at the two.

Didn't realise Ray missing wide open J's was nothing to do with Wally. He works hard, but that only gets you so far.

Again, this had nothing to do with Sasha.

You can argue for whatever reason ray allen did shitty, but ok. So what happened to caron butler vs wally? I'm not saying wallys ron artest but we did terrific defensively throughout the playoffs with wally starting..

edit: and by you saying you dont want wally starting you are implying you want sasha pavlosuck

B Mac
10-15-2008, 01:21 AM
Take Ray Allen out of the conversation... Do you really want Wally matching up against the other SG's in the league, who actually have some speed? It takes defense to win, and Wally for as much as we are all rooting for him, is too slow to be an adequate defender at the 2. I dont see how that can be argued really.

roozy
10-15-2008, 01:22 AM
Wally is horrible.... It is horrifying to see this obsession over him starting at the 2. A Mo and Wally back court would be disgusting.

MalTalm
10-15-2008, 01:52 AM
Wally is amazing.... It is inspiring to see this obsession over him starting at the 2. A Mo and Wally back court would be unstoppable.

Fixed. :)

Pioneer10
10-15-2008, 02:06 AM
Take Ray Allen out of the conversation... Do you really want Wally matching up against the other SG's in the league, who actually have some speed? It takes defense to win, and Wally for as much as we are all rooting for him, is too slow to be an adequate defender at the 2. I dont see how that can be argued really.
Not that I'm in favor of it (outside of my support for this idea in the Boston series) but we could play Lebron at the 2 and Wally at the 3 if Wally actually really puts up good numbers on offense. You'd don't necessarily want Lebron chasing around quick 2's either (foul trouble, wasted energy, etc.) but if all goes really well he theoretically won't have to do nearly as much on offense with Mo and Wally in the same lineup

samtheman67
10-15-2008, 04:19 AM
Not that I'm in favor of it (outside of my support for this idea in the Boston series) but we could play Lebron at the 2 and Wally at the 3 if Wally actually really puts up good numbers on offense. You'd don't necessarily want Lebron chasing around quick 2's either (foul trouble, wasted energy, etc.) but if all goes really well he theoretically won't have to do nearly as much on offense with Mo and Wally in the same lineup

Thats what I was thinking.. Lebron can guard any 2 in the league, and the amount of star SFs and SGs are pretty interchangable

Karma
10-15-2008, 04:48 AM
Thats what I was thinking.. Lebron can guard any 2 in the league, and the amount of star SFs and SGs are pretty interchangable

This makes no sense at all. Basically you are saying to LeBron "Hey you just go out there for 82 games and the playoffs and defend every single teams best swingman so we can accomodate an ageing shooter who who can fill it up here and there. Dont be concerned that you'll have nothing in the tank in the 4th after chasing around shooting guards, because never fear Wally is here".

Ridiculous.

I just dont want Wally at the 2 period. If its not Sasha, so be it. Put Delonte there.

The thought of moving LeBron for Wally is just absurd.

Bob Loblaw
10-15-2008, 07:07 AM
I wouldn't worry - once West and Pavs are back, Wally won't see much time at the 2.

Wally World
10-15-2008, 08:30 AM
Yeah....This team should bring Mo and Wally of the bench and start Sasha so they will have 12%fg.....You guys look like you never played basketball in your life...What should Wally do????Fighting with Ray and maybe risk to be injured...Common.....

Lee
10-15-2008, 10:05 AM
Not that I'm in favor of it (outside of my support for this idea in the Boston series) but we could play Lebron at the 2 and Wally at the 3 if Wally actually really puts up good numbers on offense. You'd don't necessarily want Lebron chasing around quick 2's either (foul trouble, wasted energy, etc.) but if all goes really well he theoretically won't have to do nearly as much on offense with Mo and Wally in the same lineup

Problem is back to giving to much defensive pressure to LBJ for the whole game. No star guards the oppositions best wing player the whole game. Mj didnt do, Kobe doesnt do it, and neither should Lebron be forced to do it. I know this sounds weird, but wally did a more effective job guarding KG than Ray Allen...maybe him getting 10-15 mins a pf isnt as crazy as we all thought. His heart is always there, and heart goes along way in defending bigs.

Deezus
10-15-2008, 12:15 PM
Wally's role on this team:
1.) Scoring at the 2 or 3 position off the bench (20-25 mins a night)

2.) Use his expiring contract to fetch us a top perimeter defender or scoring big man at the trade deadline

3.) Provide the team with hair gel and style tips.

...Plain and simple

Cavatt
10-15-2008, 01:10 PM
Yeah I don't know. Spreading the floor with Wally at the 4 could be a good idea. We have got to open up the paint against the Celtics. Their defense is so good our fg% goes to crap. We need to make 3's and get in the paint. They close in so there all these bodies clogging the lane. If you can even draw 1 of the 3 guys down there out with Wally and boobie or delonte on the wings, then Mo and Lebron may be able to penetrate. We just can't beat them with Lebron's jump shot.

samtheman67
10-15-2008, 03:24 PM
This makes no sense at all. Basically you are saying to LeBron "Hey you just go out there for 82 games and the playoffs and defend every single teams best swingman so we can accomodate an ageing shooter who who can fill it up here and there. Dont be concerned that you'll have nothing in the tank in the 4th after chasing around shooting guards, because never fear Wally is here".

Ridiculous.

I just dont want Wally at the 2 period. If its not Sasha, so be it. Put Delonte there.

The thought of moving LeBron for Wally is just absurd.

MB likes tall backcourts so seeing a mo delonte backcourt would be very odd, and you sorta misunderstood my statement in the previous point. I meant that the SF and SG positions both have tons of stars so its not like LeBron gets off easy defending the SF everynight rather than the SG. So in theory if we moved him the 2 he wouldn't expend anymore energy then the 3

Karma
10-15-2008, 03:37 PM
MB likes tall backcourts so seeing a mo delonte backcourt would be very odd, and you sorta misunderstood my statement in the previous point. I meant that the SF and SG positions both have tons of stars so its not like LeBron gets off easy defending the SF everynight rather than the SG. So in theory if we moved him the 2 he wouldn't expend anymore energy then the 3

The problem remains though. With Mo, Wally and LeBron on the perimeter, James is easily our best defender. Coach has got 2 choices. First one being LeBron defends the best perimeter player and our defense remains sound. However we have a superstar with no energy down the stretch. Or we stick with Wally at the two, and despite his efforts he will get abused more times then not.

This is why I have favoured Sasha. He is that tall guard who can defend. His offense last season wasn't up to scratch. That was last season though. I'm looking at this with everyone back to square one. Wally isn't gonna get quicker. West isn't gonna grow 3 inches and put on 20 pound. Sasha may get back to where he was.

I dont mind if we go with West at the 2. It seems a much better option then either Wally, Gibson or Kinsey, and it certainly has some benefits over starting Pavlovic as well.

There will be times that Wally at the 2 isn't a problem, but those circumstances are few and far between. Play him off the bench where he can play both forrward spot pending on the game situation. He still has some gas in the tank that we are mad not to tap into. But starting the two guard just exposes us massively.

samtheman67
10-15-2008, 03:42 PM
The problem remains though. With Mo, Wally and LeBron on the perimeter, James is easily our best defender. Coach has got 2 choices. First one being LeBron defends the best perimeter player and our defense remains sound. However we have a superstar with no energy down the stretch. Or we stick with Wally at the two, and despite his efforts he will get abused more times then not.

This is why I have favoured Sasha. He is that tall guard who can defend. His offense last season wasn't up to scratch. That was last season though. I'm looking at this with everyone back to square one. Wally isn't gonna get quicker. West isn't gonna grow 3 inches and put on 20 pound. Sasha may get back to where he was.

I dont mind if we go with West at the 2. It seems a much better option then either Wally, Gibson or Kinsey, and it certainly has some benefits over starting Pavlovic as well.

There will be times that Wally at the 2 isn't a problem, but those circumstances are few and far between. Play him off the bench where he can play both forrward spot pending on the game situation. He still has some gas in the tank that we are mad not to tap into. But starting the two guard just exposes us massively.
Then we are obviously in a large predicament, one guard is too slow, one is too small, and one you don't know what you're going to get ..

Jon
10-15-2008, 04:15 PM
I believe it should read Wally getting Ray Allen back in his groove. Wally just isn't a starter at the 2 guard. Too slow. There may be the occasional matchup he can handle, but for the most part he'll be a hinderance.

Yeah, I was hoping we'd see super-defending-ultra-Wally, but can't say I was counting on it.

Ray-Ray definitely seemed to feel he had something to prove after his lousy performance in the playoff series.

We left Wally out on an island against Allen during the 1st quarter, and he sank! :chuckles:

Jon
10-15-2008, 04:24 PM
Yeah....This team should bring Mo and Wally of the bench and start Sasha so they will have 12%fg.....You guys look like you never played basketball in your life...What should Wally do????Fighting with Ray and maybe risk to be injured...Common.....

Hey Wally World, did you know that Sasha's FG% last season was higher last season than Wally's FG% with the Cavs?

btw, what do you have against Sasha? Is it a Serbia-Montenegro .vs. Serbia thing? I'd think you'd be a lot more supportive of someone from your nation, unless I'm missing something.

Pioneer10
10-15-2008, 04:28 PM
Problem is back to giving to much defensive pressure to LBJ for the whole game. No star guards the oppositions best wing player the whole game. Mj didnt do, Kobe doesnt do it, and neither should Lebron be forced to do it. I know this sounds weird, but wally did a more effective job guarding KG than Ray Allen...maybe him getting 10-15 mins a pf isnt as crazy as we all thought. His heart is always there, and heart goes along way in defending bigs.
I don't understand this whole game argument. We have plenty of perimeter players, not necessarily good ones but plenty of mediocre ones whose pluses/minuses don't match (Wally can shoot but is slow, Delonte is perfect but he's small, Sasha got the perfect body but plays offense like Drew Gooden used to play defense). Anyone whose seen me post knows Wally is not my favorite player but playing Lebron at the 2 for 15-20 minutes a game makes a lot more sense in some ways then him playing PF if Wally actually returns to his earlt 2000's form. Certainly Lebron is built to play PF but his physical advantages are huge also compared to most SG's and his offensive game is more like a SG.

The big thing is we have tons of flexibility if not quality and a lineup of Z/AV/Wally/Lebron/Mo would be intriguing both on offense and defense for a certain amount of time at least. This of course also means we should not also try Lebron at 4 for a certain amount of time: for the first time in a long time the Cavs can create matchup problems for other teams for a change

Wally World
10-15-2008, 04:31 PM
Hey Wally World, did you know that Sasha's FG% last season was higher last season than Wally's FG% with the Cavs?

btw, what do you have against Sasha? Is it a Serbia-Montenegro .vs. Serbia thing? I'd think you'd be a lot more supportive of someone from your nation, unless I'm missing something.



You are not missing nothing.....Sasha is Serbian like me,not Serbian & Montenegro,that country does not exist....We have now Serbia and Montenegro...2 different countries....Wally is going to find his shooting form so he will shoot 50%fg this year....About Sasha i dont know...Maybe 30%....He cant make any jumper.....

Jon
10-15-2008, 04:34 PM
Then explain. Why are you so sure Wally is going to return to form, but you don't think your own countryman who's much younger and hasn't even entered his prime yet can deliver 45% and 40% like he did the season before last?

Karma
10-15-2008, 04:39 PM
The big thing is we have tons of flexibility if not quality and a lineup of Z/AV/Wally/Lebron/Mo would be intriguing both on offense and defense for a certain amount of time at least. This of course also means we should not also try Lebron at 4 for a certain amount of time: for the first time in a long time the Cavs can create matchup problems for other teams for a change

Offensively that looks like a sound lineup. But we will just get abused defensively in my opinion and overwork LeBron. Teams will attack our perimeter defense and likely have good success. Its not like Z will be able to cover the penetration then be able to retreat to his man to stop an easy bucket. Play this squad for tidbits, but the opposition will have their best players out there when LeBron, Z and Mo are on the floor, so we are in for a rough time.

Wally certainly has a role, but I dont see much of it at guard. Remember we have Gibson, Williams and West who will be playing good minutes at guard so to me this certainly should squeeze out Wally.

samtheman67
10-15-2008, 05:39 PM
What happens if Mo turns into a good defender like every other player that has ever been in the mike brown system aside from drew gooden and dj?

samtheman67
10-15-2008, 05:41 PM
I don't understand this whole game argument. We have plenty of guards, not necessarily good guards but plenty of mediocre ones whose pluses/minuses don't match (Wally can shoot but is slow, Delonte is perfect but he's small, Sasha got the perfect body but plays offense like Drew Gooden used to play defense). Anyone whose seen me post knows Wally is not my favorite player but playing Lebron at the 2 for 15-20 minutes a game makes a lot more sense in some ways then him playing PF if Wally actually returns to his earlt 2000's form. Certainly Lebron is built to play PF but his physical advantages are huge also compared to most SG's and his offensive game is more like a SG.

The big thing is we have tons of flexibility if not quality and a lineup of Z/AV/Wally/Lebron/Mo would be intriguing both on offense and defense for a certain amount of time at least. This of course also means we should not also try Lebron at 4 for a certain amount of time: for the first time in a long time the Cavs can create matchup problems for other teams for a change

His offensive game is exactly like a 2.. perimeter based slashing etc, no post up game.. I don't know if any of you have watched Lebron but hes 23 and never gets tired.. In the playoffs the last couple years hes played insane minutes, defending some of the best scorers in the NBA and still does not tire.

Thunder
10-15-2008, 05:55 PM
Start Jawad at the 2! He's athletic, strong, and quick. HE CAN GUARD ANY 2 IN THE LEAGUE, MARK MY WORDS!!!

And when we need offense, we can switch him over to the PF/C and put in Delonte/Gibson/Wally at SG OMG!

Karma
10-15-2008, 05:59 PM
His offensive game is exactly like a 2.. perimeter based slashing etc, no post up game.. I don't know if any of you have watched Lebron but hes 23 and never gets tired.. In the playoffs the last couple years hes played insane minutes, defending some of the best scorers in the NBA and still does not tire.

LeBron has even admitted that he needs to drop his minutes down so he can have enrgy down the stretch. Starting Wally just leads to more stress on LeBron and even more strain on his overused body. Yes he is young and can handle big minutes, but it will come back to haunt us. I cannot fathom a reason anyone wants LeBron to work even harder then he already is.

Personally I just like Wally as a goto guy in the 2nd unit when LeBron is out and when we decide to go "smaller" with LeBron and Wally at the forward spots. If we need to boost our scoring, then yeah bring him in for more minutes. To me he is redundant at the 2 guard with Mo, Gibson, West and Sasha on the roster. I'm not trying to run him out of town, just merely wanting him to play a role that suits the team.

Pioneer10
10-15-2008, 06:00 PM
Offensively that looks like a sound lineup. But we will just get abused defensively in my opinion and overwork LeBron. Teams will attack our perimeter defense and likely have good success. Its not like Z will be able to cover the penetration then be able to retreat to his man to stop an easy bucket. Play this squad for tidbits, but the opposition will have their best players out there when LeBron, Z and Mo are on the floor, so we are in for a rough time.

Wally certainly has a role, but I dont see much of it at guard. Remember we have Gibson, Williams and West who will be playing good minutes at guard so to me this certainly should squeeze out Wally.
I agree with the concern about not wanting to overwork Lebron but wasn't getting another offensive guard supposed to also decrease Lebron's overall minutes?

In terms of defense I don't think we're as exposed on defense as you're making it out to be. Wally from what I saw last year was a decent defender against 3's: he didn't make too many dumb errors in terms of team defense and he was solid in man to man as long as the opponent didn't have a huge footspeed edge (he actually had decent defensive +/- and opp PER numbers for what's that worth). That why playing him at the 3 where opponents will be bigger and slower makes sense.

It will only be at the point with Mo where our perimeter defense will be really exposed with lebron at the 2. Lebron is a freak of nature in that he can guard basically any 2 even though he is build like a PF. Cut down his overall minutes and this lineup can be at least tried for maybe not the whole game but for signficant chunks of time.

*this post of course comes with the caveat that Wally doesn't play like crap on offense which he did last year with us

One final point: Wally has a better post up game then Lebron. Offensively this could really be a stong lineup with two playmakers in Lebron and Mo setting up Z and/or Wally either in the pick and roll or downlow

samtheman67
10-15-2008, 06:00 PM
He can't create for himself... Wally works better with lebron and mo who are natural passers, we all saw how wally on the second unit worked. In the playoffs however we saw glimpses of the wally of old hitting shots created by lebron and west

Karma
10-15-2008, 06:06 PM
He can't create for himself... Wally works better with lebron and mo.

Give Wally some credit now.....

He is more then just a spot up shooter. You play him with West, Boobie and Andy and I think he can keep that unit rolling. Wally needs the ball to be effective. Playing with Mo, LeBron and Z that isn't going to happen.

Karma
10-15-2008, 06:10 PM
I agree with the concern about not wanting to overwork Lebron but wasn't getting another offensive guard supposed to also decrease Lebron's overall minutes?

In terms of defense I don't think we're as exposed on defense as you're making it out to be. Wally from what I saw last year was a decent defender against 3's: he didn't make too many dumb errors in terms of team defense and he was solid in man to man as long as the opponent didn't have a huge footspeed edge (he actually had decent defensive +/- and opp PER numbers for what's that worth). That why playing him at the 3 where opponents will be bigger and slower makes sense.

It will only be at the point with Mo where our perimeter defense will be really exposed with lebron at the 2. Lebron is a freak of nature in that he can guard basically any 2 even though he is build like a PF. Cut down his overall minutes and this lineup can be at least tried for maybe not the whole game but for signficant chunks of time.

*this post of course comes with the caveat that Wally doesn't play like crap on offense which he did last year with us

One final point: Wally has a better post up game then Lebron. Offensively this could really be a stong lineup with two playmakers in Lebron and Mo setting up Z and/or Wally either in the pick and roll or downlow

Thats all fair enough Pioneer. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I want a more athletic 2 guard.

Wally World
10-15-2008, 06:11 PM
Then explain. Why are you so sure Wally is going to return to form, but you don't think your own countryman who's much younger and hasn't even entered his prime yet can deliver 45% and 40% like he did the season before last?

Listen man....I know wally's soul because i am watching him last 8 years...HE is the proven scorer,if Cavs need him they will get him....A few screens or good dish out and he will average 15ppg with 50%fg.....He is that type of player and now he is comfortable in Cleveland...Sasha is not so good player because he cant make jumpers,he cant make good assists,his driving always finish with missed layup or blocked shoot....You will see that in regular season....Wally always had injury problems in preseason so i know that he will try to save his health....But when season start he will show what he can do....I can bet that Sasha cant average more than 5ppg and maybe 40%fg....Wally World is the complete player,former all star and starter during his career,15 ppg and 50%fg throw his whole career...Give me some good Sasha's number???????

samtheman67
10-15-2008, 06:26 PM
Give Wally some credit now.....

He is more then just a spot up shooter. You play him with West, Boobie and Andy and I think he can keep that unit rolling. Wally needs the ball to be effective. Playing with Mo, LeBron and Z that isn't going to happen.

I disagree with you there Karma. I believe wally needs SHOTS to be effective, not so much the ball to dribble or create. Remember the chicago game where lebron passed to wally for the dagger, or the preseason game a couple days ago where mo no looked to wally? Thats what wallys best at spotupshooting, so to have him on the second team where no one can really create ( Heres to hoping gibson / west learn ) wont work well IMO.

Jon
10-15-2008, 07:37 PM
HE is the proven scorer,if Cavs need him they will get him

We needed him after the trade ... we didn't get him. What we have is an aging shooter who's knees are shot and doesn't move well. It's almost too clear in my mind the play in the Celts series when Wally got the ball with a seemingly clear path to the rim, but suddenly he started moving in what seemed like slow motion, the defense caught up, and never made it. Of course a jump-shooter relies on his legs. Can Wally make his shots as his knees continue to fall apart? Can he adjust? Can he learn to shoot flat footed if necessary? Can he stand up to the minutes he'd have to play as a starter?


Give me some good Sasha's number???????

1 year ago Sasha was coming off a season where he shot 45% from 2pt, and 40% from 3pt. He had a +7.6 +/- when he was on the court and +6.4 net. The guys he defended were held to a very low PER of 12.5 as Sasha played a major part in a very good perimeter D. The Cavs as a team shot 1.4% better and opponents shot 1.9% worse when Sasha was on the floor. He produced about the same at either SG or SF. Sasha will be just 25 years old in November and as I said before hasn't sniffed his prime. He was an important part of a team that went to the NBA Finals, but suffered a wasted season last year. Wally's had a few of those too.

fwiw, there's something to be said for putting Wally and Delonte on the 2nd unit in that they're very familiar working together. Wally also had a very good season for Seattle coming off their bench. It's a lot easier to find him favorable defensive matchups against another team's second team.

Mdog1
10-15-2008, 08:45 PM
We needed him after the trade ... we didn't get him. What we have is an aging shooter who's knees are shot and doesn't move well. It's almost too clear in my mind the play in the Celts series when Wally got the ball with a seemingly clear path to the rim, but suddenly he started moving in what seemed like slow motion, the defense caught up, and never made it. Of course a jump-shooter relies on his legs. Can Wally make his shots as his knees continue to fall apart? Can he adjust? Can he learn to shoot flat footed if necessary? Can he stand up to the minutes he'd have to play as a starter?



1 year ago Sasha was coming off a season where he shot 45% from 2pt, and 40% from 3pt. He had a +7.6 +/- when he was on the court and +6.4 net. The guys he defended were held to a very low PER of 12.5 as Sasha played a major part in a very good perimeter D. The Cavs as a team shot 1.4% better and opponents shot 1.9% worse when Sasha was on the floor. He produced about the same at either SG or SF. Sasha will be just 25 years old in November and as I said before hasn't sniffed his prime. He was an important part of a team that went to the NBA Finals, but suffered a wasted season last year. Wally's had a few of those too.

fwiw, there's something to be said for putting Wally and Delonte on the 2nd unit in that they're very familiar working together. Wally also had a very good season for Seattle coming off their bench. It's a lot easier to find him favorable defensive matchups against another team's second team.

Sasha will start because he is the better defender, no doubt about that. Wally is great off of the bench and that is where I want him. Delonte is the player I would like to start, not Sasha and not Wally, but as stated Sasha is the better defender and will start.

Pioneer10
10-15-2008, 11:09 PM
Thats all fair enough Pioneer. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I want a more athletic 2 guard.
Larry Hughes is available :chuckles:

BTW, my first choice is West

Douglar
10-15-2008, 11:25 PM
Here's what a Bulls fan is saying about Hughes--

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/BDL-s-2008-09-NBA-Season-Preview-Chicago-Bulls?urn=nba,114989


No team can be expected to compete in the NBA with Larry Hughes (shooting 9 of 31 in the preseason, 29 percent) playing any more than two or three minutes per game. I mean that. He’s toast.

samtheman67
10-15-2008, 11:47 PM
We needed him after the trade ... we didn't get him. What we have is an aging shooter who's knees are shot and doesn't move well. It's almost too clear in my mind the play in the Celts series when Wally got the ball with a seemingly clear path to the rim, but suddenly he started moving in what seemed like slow motion, the defense caught up, and never made it. Of course a jump-shooter relies on his legs. Can Wally make his shots as his knees continue to fall apart? Can he adjust? Can he learn to shoot flat footed if necessary? Can he stand up to the minutes he'd have to play as a starter?



1 year ago Sasha was coming off a season where he shot 45% from 2pt, and 40% from 3pt. He had a +7.6 +/- when he was on the court and +6.4 net. The guys he defended were held to a very low PER of 12.5 as Sasha played a major part in a very good perimeter D. The Cavs as a team shot 1.4% better and opponents shot 1.9% worse when Sasha was on the floor. He produced about the same at either SG or SF. Sasha will be just 25 years old in November and as I said before hasn't sniffed his prime. He was an important part of a team that went to the NBA Finals, but suffered a wasted season last year. Wally's had a few of those too.

fwiw, there's something to be said for putting Wally and Delonte on the 2nd unit in that they're very familiar working together. Wally also had a very good season for Seattle coming off their bench. It's a lot easier to find him favorable defensive matchups against another team's second team.
For someone who has had 4.5/5 mediocre season's the juries still out on Sasha in my eyes. All I want is for this team to win the champ, but I don't see sasha playing a big role in that.. yet.

Jon
10-16-2008, 01:49 AM
For someone who has had 4.5/5 mediocre season's the juries still out on Sasha in my eyes. All I want is for this team to win the champ, but I don't see sasha playing a big role in that.. yet.

I'm not that fond of any of our SG choices, but it's a pick your poison situation.

If Sasha can find his shot and play solid D, IMO, he's got the spot. At least until the trading deadline.

Wally World
10-16-2008, 05:24 AM
We needed him after the trade ... we didn't get him. What we have is an aging shooter who's knees are shot and doesn't move well. It's almost too clear in my mind the play in the Celts series when Wally got the ball with a seemingly clear path to the rim, but suddenly he started moving in what seemed like slow motion, the defense caught up, and never made it. Of course a jump-shooter relies on his legs. Can Wally make his shots as his knees continue to fall apart? Can he adjust? Can he learn to shoot flat footed if necessary? Can he stand up to the minutes he'd have to play as a starter?



1 year ago Sasha was coming off a season where he shot 45% from 2pt, and 40% from 3pt. He had a +7.6 +/- when he was on the court and +6.4 net. The guys he defended were held to a very low PER of 12.5 as Sasha played a major part in a very good perimeter D. The Cavs as a team shot 1.4% better and opponents shot 1.9% worse when Sasha was on the floor. He produced about the same at either SG or SF. Sasha will be just 25 years old in November and as I said before hasn't sniffed his prime. He was an important part of a team that went to the NBA Finals, but suffered a wasted season last year. Wally's had a few of those too.

fwiw, there's something to be said for putting Wally and Delonte on the 2nd unit in that they're very familiar working together. Wally also had a very good season for Seattle coming off their bench. It's a lot easier to find him favorable defensive matchups against another team's second team.



I know about Sasha's 2006-07 season....But that will not happen again...He is like many players in NBA who had one good season and thats it....Man,Wally had 8 and a half good seasons....Thats the difference.....I dont care will he start or come off the bench because he will have a good season and shoot will finally be in Cleveland....I just said,this team cant go deep with Sasha playing big minutes....Also,you said about wally and delonte,yes i like them both coming off the bench because they are good buddies and will help each other,but man Wally and Mo can kill all teams...Believe me,just take a look against Celtics(october 10th),when mo come inside and then dish out....Wally can score 30 points in that situations but sasha cant....Thats the problem with the starting sg....

Cavatt
10-16-2008, 11:27 AM
Totally Wally World. I remember a game where Wally scored 20+ points. My memory doesn't go back that far with Sasha. Wally is slower, but he is smart enough to position himself correctly. I honestly think he played good D at the end of last year. I think he is gone at the deadline, but I don't think we let him go without getting a more traditional SG.

Lee
10-16-2008, 12:04 PM
I think sasha will and should start, but his inconcistancy scares me. Luckily we have enough depth for his bad days to limmit his minutes.

But as the great Forest Gump said. "Sasha is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your going to get."

http://www.lezkeepitreal.com/wp-content/uploads/Forest_20Gump.jpg


Funny thing is, that is the same look that Sasha gives when he is playing. That is going to be my new nickname for Sasha......Sasha Gump. He might make some great plays, but his head isnt always in the game. :chuckles:

Ren
10-16-2008, 12:18 PM
I am more in favor of Wally playing PF then SG..

Rick Astley
10-16-2008, 12:19 PM
Oh I know what I will get, Lee. A box full of chocolaty disappointment. :mad:


Banging your head into a 22" LCD monitor has never been so delicious! :mad:

Jon
10-16-2008, 12:25 PM
Totally Wally World. I remember a game where Wally scored 20+ points. My memory doesn't go back that far with Sasha. Wally is slower, but he is smart enough to position himself correctly. I honestly think he played good D at the end of last year. I think he is gone at the deadline, but I don't think we let him go without getting a more traditional SG.

On March 13, 2008 .Sasha scored 24pts vs. Washington.

Wally scored 20+ pts for us only once, that was 26pts on 5/2 .vs. Washington in the playoffs.

Not so hot considering Wally is a high volume shooter and took (and missed) a lot more shots, whereas Sasha is happy to fade in to the background.

Redz West is Best
10-16-2008, 12:26 PM
He can't create for himself... Wally works better with lebron and mo who are natural passers, we all saw how wally on the second unit worked. In the playoffs however we saw glimpses of the wally of old hitting shots created by lebron and west

Woah, Mo is not a natural passer. He has always been a scoring guy in a point guards body. He has put it upon himself to be a better passer but that isn't his first instinct.

Wally has a quick release but he is a ball hog at times. If he could concentrate on not forcing too many shots especially when trying to create for himself, he would be a true asset. His defense isn't that bad against SF & PF's (its not good don't get me wrong). Having Wally in the game with Mo will force Lebron to guard the best perimeter player which the coaching staff is trying not to do.

Its in the best interest of the Cavs over the long haul of the regular season to have Pavs break out of his suck shell and start or have Delonte West start. If Delonte has to start at the two then I can see himself getting injured since he plays super aggressive when he is guarding someone bigger than him. Its great in spurts but not ideal.

We need Pavs at the 2 to just eat up minutes wearing them down, and then bring West in to exploit the other team with his energy. Teams usually like to do this with their scorers/energy guys and it has worked for many championship teams.

PIP
10-16-2008, 12:30 PM
If I may interject...

Personally, what I think the Cavs should do with Sasha is open up the door in the back of the plane, and shove him out as their flying over a large body of water..

Problem solved.

Maximus
10-16-2008, 12:36 PM
Wally's back is flaring up a bit. It will be interesting to see if he plays tonight.

After taking it easy on them early on, MB has been pushing these guys very hard of late....probably too hard.

Mdog1
10-16-2008, 12:39 PM
If I may interject...

Personally, what I think the Cavs should do with Sasha is open up the door in the back of the plane, and shove him out as their flying over a large body of water..

Problem solved.

Good one Pip. Sasha will show us two things this year. 1) he sucks and should never be trusted to shoot the last second shot. and 2) he will show us how to utalize his contract in combination with Wally's to ge3t us a star PF. That is about all I can see Sasha doing this year, sure he may get 4 ppg like BW but that is just not good enough.

rabman_gold
10-16-2008, 12:47 PM
The memories of "The Good Sheppard" still invades my thoughts when I consider that solution for Sasha... Scary thought...

As for Mike pushing the guys, it's almost like he has to or they'll stop playing the appropriate defense needed to win championships. Perhaps it's a little too hard for them, but we saw where they were going in the first couple of practices, not very far. I'm sure that Mike will try to fix this once the team improves.

I can't wait until our team goes through the first couple of weeks without a single injury... That will prove to be a great asset, as the memories of January and February of 2008 will recall.

Lee
10-16-2008, 12:59 PM
If I may interject...

Personally, what I think the Cavs should do with Sasha is open up the door in the back of the plane, and shove him out as their flying over a large body of water..

Problem solved.

Not sure if he wouldnt have more value on the plane as a flotation device. Obviously with that large cranium of his being empty he would be very boyant.

Still like to see if he can return to form as a starter, but I do understand your point.

MYoung23
10-16-2008, 12:59 PM
On a game-to-game basis over the course of the regular season Szczerbiak has a couple of defensive issues wherever he plays.

The first is that he lacks recovery speed. The Cavaliers have a help and recover defensive system. Szczerbiak lacks the foot speed to get back out to shooters effectively. We saw that during season when he primarily played SF.

In the playoffs although he played SG offensive he guarded Caron Butler. He did well on Butler because of effort and Butler's health problems even though Butler steadily played better as that season went on. The Cavaliers were ready to give help on Butler but didn't for much of that series.

Against Boston Szczerbiak got a lot of help. Szczerbiak worked his tail off trying get over screens they set for Ray Allen but one of the Cavaliers defensive goals against Boston was take away alot of the what Allen does coming off screens. Allen didnt get alot of free looks or was able to turn the corner on curls.

Whomever starts for the Cavaliers at SG will have to guard his position for much of the game. This is straight out of Mike Brown's mouth. The Cavaliers will continue to have James matchup with the best offensive wings later in games.

So what will Szczerbiak have to deal with as a SG on the Cavaliers? He will on a nightly basis have to get over screens teams set for SGs like Ray Allen and Richard Hamilton and be able to hold on his own when gets iso'd against guys like Vince Carter, Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford. I highly doubt with Szczerbiak lack of footspeed and lateral movement he will able to accomplish this game in and game out.

Ideally, Pavlovic has the physical tools and skill set to be what Mike Brown wants. But, we all know Pavlovic's severe limitations in basketball IQ, consistency, confidence and productivity on offense.

Jon
10-16-2008, 02:00 PM
We need Pavs at the 2 to just eat up minutes wearing them down, and then bring West in to exploit the other team with his energy.

Good points, and just to nail it ... the other benefit is that we don't have to run plays for Sasha. He doesn't need to have the ball in his hands. He doesn't need a high volume of shots. So what that does is it allows more shots for Mo, LeBron, and Z; and then when the second unit comes in there'll be more shots for guys like Wally, Gibson, and Delonte.

sam_slam911
10-16-2008, 02:18 PM
Wewll so far Sashas lost the starrting spot. He'll have to play real well in the next few preseason games to get it.

NarlCavs
10-16-2008, 02:46 PM
There's no perfect choice to start at SG. Although I'm no longer a huge Sasha fan he does make sense as the starter. What he can bring fits better with the starters and in the backcourt with Williams. It also sets up the rotation better with better balance and players whose games compliment one another's. West brings more of a PG game off the bench to pair with Gibson or Wally and Wally can come in and provide either another big G or play SF minutes behind LeBron.

I'm not really sure where Sasha got a reputation as some great defensive player. He's average, nothing more. If the effort and smart play are there then he'll be ok.

Something I've brought up before is the question of what happened to Wally's game since coming to the Cavs? He's been a solid shooter and scorer throughout his career and even with the Sonics last season. That seemed to go away as soon as he came to the Cavs. I just don't know how that could all disappear overnight. To me it raises questions about the Cavs style of play, system and how Wally is used in it or what he's allowed to do within it.

Karma
10-17-2008, 12:01 AM
Wewll so far Sashas lost the starrting spot. He'll have to play real well in the next few preseason games to get it.

How is that?

He played the first game and started. Pretty much coach had him at the top of his list. He then got injured and Wally gets the starts. Wally goes out there and shows us why he shouldn't be playing guard. Wally then hurts his back. Gibson starts and shows he is a good guard from the bench, not neccessarily starting.

West and Sasha to me are the only options. West the better player, Sasha the better fit.

Redz West is Best
10-17-2008, 02:52 PM
I agree Karma.. West the better player, Sasha the better fit. Kinda like (on a higher level) Ginobili the better player, Finley the better fit.

Lee
10-17-2008, 03:00 PM
I agree Karma.. West the better player, Sasha the better fit. Kinda like (on a higher level) Ginobili the better player, Finley the better fit.

Well put, good example. I think west can be a poor mans Ginobili....with better defense. I just think the west gibson combo off the bench could be to valuable to mess with starting one of the 2. Ofcourse, I personally want to see av start this year. WIth his new found jumper and energy he would be a better choice for the starting line-up.

rabman_gold
10-17-2008, 06:02 PM
Well put, good example. I think west can be a poor mans Ginobili....with better defense. I just think the west gibson combo off the bench could be to valuable to mess with starting one of the 2. Of course, I personally want to see av start this year. With his new found jumper and energy he would be a better choice for the starting line-up.

I'm not exactly sure, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just a tiny bit contradictory what what was said above you? I would think that with Andy being the better player, it would be appropriate for Ben to start. It at least motivates Wallace to play better and Andy proves his effectiveness with his energy to jump start the team if need be.

At least that's what I thought could happen until further notice...

Lee
10-17-2008, 07:37 PM
I'm not exactly sure, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just a tiny bit contradictory what what was said above you? I would think that with Andy being the better player, it would be appropriate for Ben to start. It at least motivates Wallace to play better and Andy proves his effectiveness with his energy to jump start the team if need be.

At least that's what I thought could happen until further notice...

Not really, I love av's energy from the bench, but simular players like a rodman have proven to be very effective in a starting lineup. The reason on want to keep west on the bench is for rotation. I just rather see west handling the 2nd unit than gibson. The reason you cant start gibson is because of his inability to guard sg, much less sf. Ofcourse I think gibson could guard smaller sg, like a ray allen, but it would cause pressure on LBJ. At this point I dont think Wallace has the physical ability to start night in and night out. He became a locker room distraction, but alot of that from what I can tell is expextations of the team and fans. Here we dont expect any offense out of him, and he could slip into later career or retirement with more grace like a matumbo.

West and Gibson arent aging, well technically we all are getting older, but you know what I mean. I have a ton of repsect for Wallace, but the time has come for him to realize his own physical limitations. He would still be important part of the rotations. Further, with wally, west, and gibson coming in off the bench, our 2nd unit would already have enough offense to maintain the leads. Av just makes more sence to me as a starter, with pavs in there to defend and hit an open jumper. Pavs can shoot, he has proven that. If we limmit his touches, he will be an effective starter. Not unlike pointed out before, a bruce bowen or micheal finley at this point in his career.

Benedict_Boozer
10-17-2008, 08:06 PM
He's been a solid shooter and scorer throughout his career and even with the Sonics last season. That seemed to go away as soon as he came to the Cavs. I just don't know how that could all disappear overnight. To me it raises questions about the Cavs style of play, system and how Wally is used in it or what he's allowed to do within it.

I've wondered this as well. It's not just Wally, we've seen it over and over again.

Perhaps LBJ's ball dominant style doesn't mesh well with spot up shooters. Because it's not like Wally and his predecessors aren't getting WIDE OPEN shots. But then you see guys like Gibson/Z who thrive off those same types of looks? So who knows.

Lee
10-17-2008, 08:16 PM
I've wondered this as well. It's not just Wally, we've seen it over and over again.

Perhaps LBJ's ball dominant style doesn't mesh well with spot up shooters. Because it's not like Wally and his predecessors aren't getting WIDE OPEN shots. But then you see guys like Gibson/Z who thrive off those same types of looks? So who knows.

Thats just not true, its grass is greener phenominon. Most shooters have done well here. DJ shot over his career averages here, D Brown shot around his career averages, West came over and shot around his career averages, Newble shot around his career averages, Wesley couldnt make a lay up, so not sure his shootiing counts, Hughes was never a shooter, even hot Donny shot well his first 2 years here, until he turned 93 y/o. Wally was here for a limmited time, was having a baby across the country, and was thrown into a new situation. The 2 times I have seen him play this preseason his stroke looks pure as ever. Ofcourse, his knees look even more shot this year than they did last. Sad thing is, a healthy younger wally would have been perfect for our sg, but thats not his fault, father time can be a mother, lol

MYoung23
10-17-2008, 09:08 PM
Thats just not true, its grass is greener phenominon. Most shooters have done well here. DJ shot over his career averages here, D Brown shot around his career averages, West came over and shot around his career averages, Newble shot around his career averages, Wesley couldnt make a lay up, so not sure his shootiing counts, Hughes was never a shooter, even hot Donny shot well his first 2 years here, until he turned 93 y/o. Wally was here for a limmited time, was having a baby across the country, and was thrown into a new situation. The 2 times I have seen him play this preseason his stroke looks pure as ever. Ofcourse, his knees look even more shot this year than they did last. Sad thing is, a healthy younger wally would have been perfect for our sg, but thats not his fault, father time can be a mother, lol

Im going to have to disagree.

Several players have had big dropoffs in FG% and/or 3ptFG% the year after joining the Cavaliers.

Devin Brown's shooting numbers dropped from the previous year. The same goes for Donyell Marshall, JR Bremer, Damon Jones, Jiri Welsch and now Szczerbiak.

CBBI
10-17-2008, 09:13 PM
Im going to have to disagree.

Several players have had big dropoffs in FG% and/or 3ptFG% the year after joining the Cavaliers.

Devin Brown's shooting numbers dropped from the previous year. The same goes for Donyell Marshall, JR Bremer, Damon Jones, Jiri Welsch and now Szczerbiak.

Don't forget Lucious Harris.

sam_slam911
10-17-2008, 09:16 PM
Wally should actually be able to provide somme real scoring power off the bench, at least until the trade deadline. I dont think hes ever been the absolute best spot up shooter in the world, he likes to kinda shoot off the dribble, create his own shot. Not like off an ankle braker like AI or nothin, but just off his own dribble.

In the second unit he should have a bit more freedom to do that. But again, unless there arent any great offers out there near the trade deadline (and theres a real good chance there will be) Wallys gonna end this season in a different jersey.

Cavatt
10-17-2008, 10:14 PM
I think maybe Lebron's play is a little rhythm breaking. He gets you a wide open shot very often, but you get very little time with the ball besides that. It may not be all Lebron tho, it could be the system. The ball movement has been really poor for awhile, passes only come to you if you are wide open and you need to shoot now. That thing Windhurst wrote about the ball movement against San Antonio is the thing I have been waiting for for awhile. The amazing assist ratio in the last game is really what we need. If we are going to grind out games with good defense against other defensive teams(Rockets, Spurs, and Celtics), we need to get more easy shots and ball movement is the way to do it.

rabman_gold
10-17-2008, 10:28 PM
Not really, I love av's energy from the bench, but similar players like a rodman have proven to be very effective in a starting lineup. The reason on want to keep west on the bench is for rotation. I just rather see west handling the 2nd unit than gibson. The reason you cant start gibson is because of his inability to guard sg, much less sf. Of course I think gibson could guard smaller sg, like a ray allen, but it would cause pressure on LBJ. At this point I don't think Wallace has the physical ability to start night in and night out. He became a locker room distraction, but a lot of that from what I can tell is expectations of the team and fans. Here we don't expect any offense out of him, and he could slip into later career or retirement with more grace like a mutumbo.

West and Gibson aren't aging, well technically we all are getting older, but you know what I mean. I have a ton of respect for Wallace, but the time has come for him to realize his own physical limitations. He would still be important part of the rotations. Further, with wally, west, and gibson coming in off the bench, our 2nd unit would already have enough offense to maintain the leads. Av just makes more sense to me as a starter, with pavs in there to defend and hit an open jumper. Pavs can shoot, he has proven that. If we limit his touches, he will be an effective starter. Not unlike pointed out before, a bruce bowen or michael finley at this point in his career.

I completely get what you're saying, Lee3370. It's obviously understandable that with Wallace deteriorating so quickly now, he's more effective producing in the limited role off the bench.

I can't argue that point, but I guess it seems that ol' Benny may be even more effective by starting out the first 5 minutes of the game. Usually with fire in his eyes, too. Do we lose that once we replace him with Varejao? I have no frickin' idea. The reason for his "distractions" may very well be due to the expectations. But Brian Windhorst also said that it was one of those personality quirks, so it could be that too. And besides, the starting lineups won't change who plays at the end of games and during the critical stretches. Yes, it would be nice to go off a run and blow the opponent out, but how it's maintained is still important too.

Also, in a sense, Andy and Ben's games reflect each other much more in size and defense than Sasha's, Wally's, and West's (even though one's a Brazilian Jumping Bean and another's a Afro-Braids-Muscleman). They're easier to exchange in any situation, since both still don't have too much offense that's proven besides some jump shots and slam dunks once in a while.

Ben doesn't need to play that much and starting won't change that, except psychologically (where he wants to fight someone early on rather than waiting and waiting and waiting...). Once he realizes that starting doesn't become easier anymore, then he'll accept his bench role, but it doesn't seem he's that interested in doing so yet (but what would I know? I didn't ask him...).

Another thing to note is that maybe it's not good to bring him off the bench because of the 2nd unit. You could say that Ben should be in the starting lineup because we have enough offense to maintain the lead. Boobie and West can try to run an offense, but it's better suited for Wallace to lose his man to LeBron and Mo, who will always make sure Ben gets it to the hoop for a (mostly) easy slam. Boobie still hasn't perfected those passes and neither him or Delonte attracts too much of a double team because they don't warrant it. That means there's single coverage and we don't get too much of a benefit from it. Andy at least can start making jump shots which will cause match-up problems by forcing big men away from the hoop...

And an energy player is really good, but could run out of gas quickly if not used responsibly. I've seen it happen when we played the last game of the season against the Hawks a few years back. He was great (17, 18), but was deflated by the third quarter and fourth quarter of the game. With a higher burst of energy, he'll be running off on all cylinders and make the opponents lives a nightmare in short stretches with technical fouls and offensive fouls. And besides, he gets fired up from coming OFF the bench, compared to Wallace fired up from STARTING.

I should add that this is just an opinion, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about what I said... I guess I'm just trying to think about how effective a player like Wallace or Varejao is in a certain situation, just like the same case is for Sasha, Wally, and West.

Jon
10-18-2008, 11:41 AM
Im going to have to disagree.

Several players have had big dropoffs in FG% and/or 3ptFG% the year after joining the Cavaliers.

Devin Brown's shooting numbers dropped from the previous year. The same goes for Donyell Marshall, JR Bremer, Damon Jones, Jiri Welsch and now Szczerbiak.

I do think there's generally been a drop off when we've brought in shooters because they're not being used how they're used to being used, but on the flip side ... can you think of anyone who's left Cleveland and hasn't fallen off a cliff?

At best Hughes was equally streaky and lousy for both the Bulls and Cavs (fyi: espn reports that he's injured his knuckle). Ira didn't even get to shoot in Seattle or LA after playing 1/2 decently for us. Gooden shot a little better in Chicago, but was still below his career average. But these guys aren't even "shooters".

Damon of course found out his new team doesn't want him and last I knew hasn't found a new job.

So while I think our non-structured offense is a factor, it's also a fact that most of the people we've run through here ... stink.

Douglar
10-18-2008, 12:03 PM
can you think of anyone who's left Cleveland and hasn't fallen off a cliff?

In the last 4 years? Boozer. Drew Gooden. Diop. Kapono. Kelenna Azuibuike, but he wasn't here during the season so I don't know if he counts. Flip Murray didn't completely drop off right ways.

Lee
10-18-2008, 12:15 PM
Im going to have to disagree.

Several players have had big dropoffs in FG% and/or 3ptFG% the year after joining the Cavaliers.

Devin Brown's shooting numbers dropped from the previous year. The same goes for Donyell Marshall, JR Bremer, Damon Jones, Jiri Welsch and now Szczerbiak.

Brenner and welsch were both a long time ago, different coaches, different front office, so no point bothering arguing thme or looking up numbers. Both Donyell and Jones shot career averages here. What it proves is that you shouldnt pay top dollar for players who are free agents coming off career years, proves nothing about them coming here and shooting worse. They came here and shot their career average....Hughes came here and did almost career average numbers all the way across the board. Ferry has learned the hard way, but he learned. Free agents will revert back to their career averages, not the previous year highs in a contract year. Also means I expect Wally to shoot much better, as he was no where near his career averages. Thats the wally I expect to see, but his defensive inabilities will most likely keep him in a reserve role and situational player.

Cavatt
10-18-2008, 01:42 PM
Brenner and welsch were both a long time ago, different coaches, different front office, so no point bothering arguing thme or looking up numbers. Both Donyell and Jones shot career averages here. What it proves is that you shouldnt pay top dollar for players who are free agents coming off career years, proves nothing about them coming here and shooting worse. They came here and shot their career average....Hughes came here and did almost career average numbers all the way across the board. Ferry has learned the hard way, but he learned. Free agents will revert back to their career averages, not the previous year highs in a contract year. Also means I expect Wally to shoot much better, as he was no where near his career averages. Thats the wally I expect to see, but his defensive inabilities will most likely keep him in a reserve role and situational player.

Are you Worried about Mo then? We didn't negotiate the contract, but he just came off a career year that saw a big jump in production. He is looking pretty good in these preseason games, but the possibility he already saw his best year is always there.

Lee
10-18-2008, 03:35 PM
I completely get what you're saying, Lee3370. It's obviously understandable that with Wallace deteriorating so quickly now, he's more effective producing in the limited role off the bench.

I can't argue that point, but I guess it seems that ol' Benny may be even more effective by starting out the first 5 minutes of the game. Usually with fire in his eyes, too. Do we lose that once we replace him with Varejao? I have no frickin' idea. The reason for his "distractions" may very well be due to the expectations. But Brian Windhorst also said that it was one of those personality quirks, so it could be that too. And besides, the starting lineups won't change who plays at the end of games and during the critical stretches. Yes, it would be nice to go off a run and blow the opponent out, but how it's maintained is still important too.

Also, in a sense, Andy and Ben's games reflect each other much more in size and defense than Sasha's, Wally's, and West's (even though one's a Brazilian Jumping Bean and another's a Afro-Braids-Muscleman). They're easier to exchange in any situation, since both still don't have too much offense that's proven besides some jump shots and slam dunks once in a while.

Ben doesn't need to play that much and starting won't change that, except psychologically (where he wants to fight someone early on rather than waiting and waiting and waiting...). Once he realizes that starting doesn't become easier anymore, then he'll accept his bench role, but it doesn't seem he's that interested in doing so yet (but what would I know? I didn't ask him...).

Another thing to note is that maybe it's not good to bring him off the bench because of the 2nd unit. You could say that Ben should be in the starting lineup because we have enough offense to maintain the lead. Boobie and West can try to run an offense, but it's better suited for Wallace to lose his man to LeBron and Mo, who will always make sure Ben gets it to the hoop for a (mostly) easy slam. Boobie still hasn't perfected those passes and neither him or Delonte attracts too much of a double team because they don't warrant it. That means there's single coverage and we don't get too much of a benefit from it. Andy at least can start making jump shots which will cause match-up problems by forcing big men away from the hoop...

And an energy player is really good, but could run out of gas quickly if not used responsibly. I've seen it happen when we played the last game of the season against the Hawks a few years back. He was great (17, 18), but was deflated by the third quarter and fourth quarter of the game. With a higher burst of energy, he'll be running off on all cylinders and make the opponents lives a nightmare in short stretches with technical fouls and offensive fouls. And besides, he gets fired up from coming OFF the bench, compared to Wallace fired up from STARTING.

I should add that this is just an opinion, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about what I said... I guess I'm just trying to think about how effective a player like Wallace or Varejao is in a certain situation, just like the same case is for Sasha, Wally, and West.


Right now our second unit seems to be hickson, west, boobie, and wally....that is a decent amount of fire power. I expect we will go 10 deep when healthy, and a second unit is not realy substituting 5 players off the bench, but we have alot of scoring in that unit. Ben I just think would be most effective off the bench...that being said, I really dont know the personalities coach has to deal with, and starting ben isnt a bad thing. I am just stating how I would do our rotation. I have never like MB's rotation personally, but a guess when I get the head coaching gig then I will get to make up the rotation. :chuckles:

Hey, I respect your opinion, seems valid to me. In the end, as long as we have LBJ starting, we will always have a chance to win. In 20 years people will (not cavs fans, but general fans) will start to realize just how amazing he was. The legend of MJ has grown since his playing days....and i suspect the same will be true for LBJ.

Lee
10-18-2008, 03:39 PM
Are you Worried about Mo then? We didn't negotiate the contract, but he just came off a career year that saw a big jump in production. He is looking pretty good in these preseason games, but the possibility he already saw his best year is always there.

Actually, I am a bit worried about mo's shooting and scoring...He is coming off as you pointed out career years and a change of scenery might knock him back a bit. One thing about mo is he provides a 2nd person that pushes it up court and gets to the foul line. This is not something we really ever had, so that aspect of his game will be great. But I just dont know he is the pure shooter that really can average 40% from three point land 2 years in a row. Another thing i noticed is he doesnt finish as well as i thought he did. If he doesnt get fouled when going to the hole, he doesnt seem to be able to score. But, in the end, he will be a great addition...just wish we could have gotten deron williams, lol

Jon
10-18-2008, 05:13 PM
In the last 4 years? Boozer. Drew Gooden. Diop. Kapono. Kelenna Azuibuike, but he wasn't here during the season so I don't know if he counts. Flip Murray didn't completely drop off right ways.

We didn't mean to lose Boozer :(

Kapono and Azuibuike we gave up on far too early due to lack of roster space.

Diop needed to be out of a job so he could get his head screwed back on.

Gooden isn't a shooter, but yes, he didn't fall off ... pretty much stayed the same and seemed to enjoy having more of the offense run through him while piling up terrible +/- numbers.

Flip is probably the best example, and again yes he didn't fall off a cliff, but until his short stint with Indiana he hadn't come close to putting up numbers like he did for the Cavs (in a short stint). Maybe Flip should only be signed to 20 game contracts?

Kapono is an interesting case though, in that as he made the move from Miami to Toronto he continued to shoot well - but yet Toronto seemed disappointed in him and his minutes and FGA were both down. Were they expecting him to be a good defender or something?

Mdog1
10-18-2008, 06:03 PM
We didn't mean to lose Boozer :(

Kapono and Azuibuike we gave up on far too early due to lack of roster space.

Diop needed to be out of a job so he could get his head screwed back on.

Gooden isn't a shooter, but yes, he didn't fall off ... pretty much stayed the same and seemed to enjoy having more of the offense run through him while piling up terrible +/- numbers.

Flip is probably the best example, and again yes he didn't fall off a cliff, but until his short stint with Indiana he hadn't come close to putting up numbers like he did for the Cavs (in a short stint). Maybe Flip should only be signed to 20 game contracts?

Kapono is an interesting case though, in that as he made the move from Miami to Toronto he continued to shoot well - but yet Toronto seemed disappointed in him and his minutes and FGA were both down. Were they expecting him to be a good defender or something?


No they weren't but he just didn't have the room to play the type of ball he is used to. Jamario started, and i'm pretty sure Khupm came off the bench so he was the odd man out.