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View Full Version : Can Mike Brown and the staff develop young offensive talent?



SoundBreaker
04-11-2009, 02:08 AM
I don't want this to be a damper on an incredible night, but watching Shannon Brown get playing time with the Lakers, and knock down some big threes tonight, me and my brother got to talking about how we haven't seen any young offensive talent groomed in the Mike Brown era.

My brother thinks it's because Mike Brown can't do it, and doesn't care to take the time to do it.

Young players that have gotten some nice playing time under coach Brown have normally been defensive minded players. Players like AV and DJack. Whereas we haven't seen progress from Boobie, Shannon's long gone, Sasha is buried in the bench and J.J. hasn't seen the same playing time Darnell has.


I told my brother that, Mike Brown is a defense first coach and he won't play you unless you defend and hustle. But we both agreed that at some point, as fans we'd hope to see some offensive growth in our young players.


Right now I don't think it's a major issue as we are in the midst of a dream season, but it's definitely something we should watch for in the coming years.

breanna
04-11-2009, 02:17 AM
I don't want this to be a damper on an incredible night, but watching Shannon Brown get playing time with the Lakers, and knock down some big threes tonight, me and my brother got to talking about how we haven't seen any young offensive talent groomed in the Mike Brown era.

My brother thinks it's because Mike Brown can't do it, and doesn't care to take the time to do it.

Young players that have gotten some nice playing time under coach Brown have normally been defensive minded players. Players like AV and DJack. Whereas we haven't seen progress from Boobie, Shannon's long gone, Sasha is buried in the bench and J.J. hasn't seen the same playing time Darnell has.


I told my brother that, Mike Brown is a defense first coach and he won't play you unless you defend and hustle. But we both agreed that at some point, as fans we'd hope to see some offensive growth in our young players.


Right now I don't think it's a major issue as we are in the midst of a dream season, but it's definitely something we should watch for in the coming years.

Then why doesn't TK play??:confused: That's just a joke.

Do I think MB can develop young offensive talent, yeah sure. Look at what he's done.

The Voice
04-11-2009, 02:19 AM
Have you ever heard of Boobie Gibson?

wuck
04-11-2009, 02:20 AM
Well, I think of LeBron as one young player who has gotten better under Brown's system...

Varejao has also gotten better each year.

Darnell is producing better than we thought he would.

The jury's still out on a player like JJ.

Injuries seem to get in the way of Gibson (not meant as an excuse for inconsistency).

Shannon Brown is not as consistently good as his performance suggested tonight, although he sure did look effective at times tonight.

Sasha and TK: hard to say exactly what is going on or going wrong. But there are only so many minutes on a team that's won 64 games.

You could also point to players the Cavs traded that haven't resulted to much anywhere else (Marty, Cedric, etc.).
---

If you look at this partial scorecard, the Cavs are batting 50% or so, with some things yet to be determined. Not too bad all things considered, even if some of the misses have really been frustrating.

Pioneer10
04-11-2009, 02:27 AM
Brown has to show more then one good game a month before saying that he's made it. He played well with Charlotte for a short period of time earlier in the year and they basically gave up on him. The big thing with Brown is not dunking or jumpshooting: it's everything in between that he has problems secondary to a poor handle and poor decision making. Against Portland tonight he basically just hit open 3's and didn't try to dribble. We'll see what happens when teams adjust to him and he has to put the ball on the floor.

Prophet Named X
04-11-2009, 02:28 AM
Shannon Brown DID NOT CARE TO IMPROVE. It's been said numerous times that he acted like he knew better than the coaches, and would constantly ignore them. It has taken two really strict coaches like Larry Brown and the Zen master to make Shannon Brown start to look like an effective player.

Sasha is a headcase. I'm just going to leave it at that. He loses confidence way too easily. He just doesn't have the mindset to be in the NBA.

I do believe that our coaches can help develop young talent. I really have no fears of that at all. But there's really one thing I think needs mentioning. A player has to put in the time to improve. A lot of players that don't develop simply just don't care. They think they are better than they really are, and never strive to improve.

Gimme Some Mo
04-11-2009, 02:34 AM
Have you ever heard of Boobie Gibson?

You just proved the OP's point. He is in his 3rd year and still can't dribble.

I don't think we do a good job developing our young players.

We are either not drafting them right, or we aren't developing them right. It has to be one of the two.

Jon
04-11-2009, 03:03 AM
We've spent quite a bit of time trying to develop Gibson's game, unfortunately it's been hampered by toe problems for the past two years.

You still see him trying to do the things the coaches want him to do, but just not with the success rate he'd have if he was every able to stay healthy.

The fact Shannon is already on his 4th team in just his 3rd season should tell you all you need to know.

Photon
04-11-2009, 03:07 AM
Coach has to give player proper role and enough playing time, everything else is up to player. That is their job, they get paid astronomical amounts to do that.

Cavatt
04-11-2009, 04:05 AM
I think Shannon Brown has just finally found a system he fits into better. There is little attention paid to him since he is a nobody, and they need to guard other guys. That would work on our team too, except he would never get any time because of his bad defense. He is breaking out now, and considering what we got for him, I don't care.

Boobie is a good defender. People talk about his fouling, but that is usually when he picks up someone else's man. He sticks to the ground, and MB says he is the best weakside defender. Brown let's him get beat up sometimes, but that is him letting him grow. Trust me, if he wasn't effective to some degree out there MB wouldn't play him.

MYoung23
04-11-2009, 04:21 AM
It is a legitimate question but Shannon Brown isnt the example.

I dont see any real teachers on the Cavaliers staff. Im skeptical of Chris Jent's real impact. John Kuester is supposed to be a guy that works with guards. They seem to have guys who can break down tape and be very detailed but many young players in the league need alot of individual instructions. The Magic have had Ewing and Clifford Ray for Dwight Howard. Ewing also worked with Yao Ming. The Lakers have Abdul-Jabbar teaching Bynum.

Looking at the Cavaliers Gibson works with John Lucas in the summer not the Cavaliers staff. Shannon Brown went to Tim Grgurich's camp and Hickson went last summer. Varejao didnt work with the Cavaliers last summer either. Pavlovic, regardless of any minor improvement, remains unreliable after almost 4 years with this staff. It makes you wonder if the young players on the Cavaliers will plateau quickly.

Look at the Lakers aside from Bynum who have a number of players drafted late in rounds. Vujacic, their Pavlovic, has become a regular rotation player. Luke Walton, a 2nd round pick is a regular rotation player with Farmer who was picked in the 20s. Ariza has gotten better since becoming a Laker.

It remains to be seen whether the Cavaliers can develop talent. They will need to when you take into account where they will drafting in the near future.

Jon
04-11-2009, 04:37 AM
You should read their boards about some of those players before trumpeting them up as great development projects...

For instance, Farmar, Vujacic, and Walton have all regressed greatly just from last year.

And how much better is Ariza? After all, offensively he contributed just as much for Orlando 2 years ago as he's doing for the Lakers this year, but he shot a much higher FG%.

It looks to me like there's a reason Shannon is getting playing time.

wuck
04-11-2009, 08:57 AM
The info on how the Cavs players are training over the summer is significant (one summer, this had to do with hold outs also) but I don't think we have enough time to judge the Ferry era yet.

For the Lakers, if you're going all the way back to Walton, then you have to include the disappointments of Brian Cook and Kareem Rush, who never did all that much. They also picked Von Wafer who never showed the stuff he's doing for the Rockets now. They also now have Sun Yue who contributes as much as Sasha Kaun.

In terms of Ferry's draft picks, you have two draft classes, and five players: Hickson, Jackson, Kaun, Brown, Gibson, and Ugboaja -- all picked in the 2nd half of the 1st round or in the 2nd round. Brown flopped. Gibson had a great rookie year, has disappointed since, but is part of the rotation (and will continue to be, if he is healthy in upcoming years). Ugboaja appears to be a throwaway late pick (one I never understood). The jury's still out on the 3 picks from this year. Too soon to really judge.

If we count young players Ferry traded for, then Sasha and Marty have disappointed, but Varejao has been a great success for a 2nd rounder. The guy shot some jumpers last summer, whether in Brazil or Cleveland.

The Cavs haven't proven they can develop these players yet but it is still pretty early to tell. If JJ has it going by age 21-22, then the answer will look different from today's perspective.

Sadly, if you want to pick a team that has gotten a lot out of late draft picks, the Cavs will be playing them tomorrow: Tony Allen (late 1st, regressed this year), Big Baby (2nd, improved), Kendrick Perkins (late 1st, improved), Leon Powe (2nd, rotation player), Gabe Pruitt (not a good year for him), Rondo (late 1st, acquired in trade before rookie season). Of course, all of them now have the luxury of playing beside 3 hall-of-famers, but they have certainly found places in the starting lineup or the rotation. But the Celtics are a notable exception, not the norm.

Portland is the other obvious case of young talent flourishing -- but three starters were picked in the top of the lottery, and 4 others in the mid-to-late second. When you seemingly have 8 draft picks every year, and you pick at the top of the board every year, it's easier. :)

I think the Celtics have overachieved in developing their young players, and the Blazers have done extremely well, but the Lakers and Cavs are somewhere in the middle, considering how few high draft picks they've had. Ferry has only been able to draft for 2 out of 4 years, and his highest pick was Hickson at #19.

sam_slam911
04-11-2009, 09:26 AM
Id love to get Kareem or someone like hat working with JJ like he has with Bynum and Ewing has with Dwight, but I dont see that happening.

jvpertz
04-11-2009, 09:44 AM
We should get Brad Daugherty for JJ. Brad was a very very skilled big man.

Lee
04-11-2009, 09:51 AM
I think this is a dumb argument. If our only proof ihe cant develop talent is Shannon Brown, then you have no evidence. Who would Brown get minutes over in our current rotation? Also, he is still a developing player and has played a year and a half away from Cleveland, I would hope he would be better than he was his rookie year and first half of his sophmore year. Thing is, he still has many holes in his game, and doesnt have the ball handling skills to play effective 2 guard in the nba. He has the skills of a sf and the body of a pg....not a good combo.

How many young players are riipping up the league once they leave the cavs? Dwayne Jones? Allred? Cedric Simmons? Luke Jackson?

Now, we have deveiloped gibson to be effective rotation player. Jackson is proving he might have a legit place in this league. JJ is yet to be seen, even sasha plays within the offense and the system now. Mo is young, and he became an all star here, which he nevere made in milwaulkee.

So your evidence is Shannon Brown? Seriously? Shannon Brown? In 15 games last year including 4 starts for the cavs he averaged 7 points on 37% shooting and looked lost on defense. Fast foward half of his career later and he has been dropped by a team and picked up by a Lakers team that needed cheap players for the back of the bench. He is averaging 4 points a game, but his shooting % is up. He has learned to take a better shot selection, but is still only averaging 2.9 pts a game with the Lakers and 4 points this season overall. I am not sure we can live without that production. Our starting sg from our eastern conference championship team from 2 years ago doesnt apear to even be in the rotation. Who does Shannon get minutes over on this team? He is a third year lottery guard averaging 2.9 points a game. I am sure MB stays up at night loosing sleep over not developing him, since the rest of league has done so well turning him into an allstar since he left the cavs a year and a half ago. :rolleyes:

MYoung23
04-11-2009, 11:20 AM
You should read their boards about some of those players before trumpeting them up as great development projects...

For instance, Farmar, Vujacic, and Walton have all regressed greatly just from last year.

And how much better is Ariza? After all, offensively he contributed just as much for Orlando 2 years ago as he's doing for the Lakers this year, but he shot a much higher FG%.

It looks to me like there's a reason Shannon is getting playing time.


Read the opinions of Laker fans? I'll pass.

Ariza, now, is a much better player than he was in Orlando and New York. Youd know that if you actually watched games.

MYoung23
04-11-2009, 11:21 AM
Maurice Williams is essentially the same guy from Milwaukee but in a role most suited for his talent.

Pioneer10
04-11-2009, 11:23 AM
82games looked at best drafting teams. It's not the same as player development as talent trumps development but I'm not sure how you separate out the two

http://www.82games.com/bestdraftingteams.htm

Cleveland ranks high but that's a lot to do leftovers from Embry's era. The team that really sticks out is the Bucks. They have been amazing in turning late picks into gamers: Redd, Mo, Sessions, Amon Ones, Bhah a Moute. Maybe Gilbert can hire away there scouting and development guys

Pioneer10
04-11-2009, 11:26 AM
Read the opinions of Laker fans? I'll pass.

Ariza, now, is a much better player than he was in Orlando and New York. Youd know that if you actually watched games.
He looked promising in Orlando though. I remember being surprised that Orlando let him go because he looked like he was going into develop into what he has when he finally starting getting PT with the Magic: defensive stalwart who is a great garbage guy on offense

Jon
04-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Sadly, if you want to pick a team that has gotten a lot out of late draft picks, the Cavs will be playing them tomorrow: Tony Allen (late 1st, regressed this year), Big Baby (2nd, improved), Kendrick Perkins (late 1st, improved), Leon Powe (2nd, rotation player), Gabe Pruitt (not a good year for him), Rondo (late 1st, acquired in trade before rookie season). Of course, all of them now have the luxury of playing beside 3 hall-of-famers, but they have certainly found places in the starting lineup or the rotation. But the Celtics are a notable exception, not the norm.

What's hard to sort out, though, is whether they simply drafted well, developed well, or some of both. Gerald Green was a player much like Shannon with a lot of raw talent who slipped in the draft, but his fate has been pretty much the same (kicking around the league trying to step-up his game and catch on). Green did have the benefit of joining a bad team and getting a ton of play time.

Anyway, I'm not sure if just bringing in an accomplished player is the solution. The person you bring in has to have a desire to work with players, sacrifice their time for players, and have an ability to teach and convey what they know. Albeit one benefit of the bringing in someone like Kareem or Ewing is that there's a better chance a young player will actually listen to a legend assuming they don't crush his ego (aka MJ and Kwame Brown). And on the flip-flip side you have to admire how much time and effort Chris Jent has put in to helping LeBron with his shooting - being there to practice with him when he wants and where he wants.

I also think most development occurs in the off-season rather than the regular season. Should the Cavs be in charge of that? Or is it actually better that players pick and choose from the best post-season programs available? Either way it takes a strong commitment from the player to want to improve and the team can't force the players to join these camps.

Lot of factors here ... and even the reason for results is quite muddied.

Jon
04-11-2009, 12:11 PM
Read the opinions of Laker fans? I'll pass.

Grass is greener syndrome.

99.9% of fans would say that even though Mo Williams has similar numbers to what he put in Milwaukee that he's improved greatly this year. How a player fits on a team, compliments a team, and helps that team win is what it's all about.

Anyway, if you're going to go by "watching games" and can't be bothered to check the numbers or read other opinions, you really should watch a lot closer. A lot of Lakers fans are rubbing their hands in anticipation that Shannon will lead to Jordan Farmar not having his option picked up this summer. Not exactly the development success you made him out to be.

wuck
04-11-2009, 12:21 PM
Ariza, now, is a much better player than he was in Orlando and New York.

Much better than in New York, no doubt.

But his 2006-2007 season in Orlando was just as good as this year on offense. Higher in points and much higher in FGA (he shot 53.9%!) while playing slightly fewer minutes. But injuries cost him 15 games. The Lakers basically traded for the same offensive player they got.

I agree that Ariza is a better player now overall, but not because LA has somehow developed his offensive talent where Orlando failed.

Rick Astley
04-11-2009, 12:27 PM
The answer to your question is Ettore Messina. Ha-ha! I kid.

wuck
04-11-2009, 12:29 PM
What's hard to sort out, though, is whether they simply drafted well, developed well, or some of both.
...
I also think most development occurs in the off-season rather than the regular season. Should the Cavs be in charge of that? Or is it actually better that players pick and choose from the best post-season programs available? Either way it takes a strong commitment from the player to want to improve and the team can't force the players to join these camps.

Lot of factors here ... and even the reason for results is quite muddied.

Totally agree with this, including the difficulty of unpacking how it all comes together. As for the Celtics: think it's a little bit of all of the above, plus they've had a lot of draft picks the last decade and their chances for potential success are higher. There is no denying their recent ability to get productive players from low picks, though.

In addition to players like Green and the ones that got away (trading Joe Johnson for Rodney Rogers...), we could look to Delonte West as an example of an Ainge draft pick who did not blossom for them in the way they hoped but clearly is a better player today than he was in 2004.

InBoobieWeTrust
04-11-2009, 12:37 PM
Honestly, it's too early to judge. Ferry didn't even have picks available to him to develop because of Paxson for awhile. Shannon Brown was a headcase and he's obviously a terrible example as people have pointed out. Boobie is an impact player, I don't care about your dribbling concerns, he's a spot-up shooter and he's great at it.

As W&G said, we have big developmental plans for JJ this summer, Darnell is obviously coming along nicely. We have two more picks coming this year. Late first and mid second rounders. We won't have a definitive answer to this question for at least 3 years. Way too premature to ask about this now.