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aaronr
07-15-2006, 06:39 PM
Sitting on the beach in Anguilla, where I'm surprised to find an internet connection, so here's a question I've wanted to pose for a few days. Whose the better point guard for the Cavs, Banks, Duhon or West? Forget about how we acquire a point guard to replace Snow. I just want to know what you all think about the merits and demerits of the three as replacements for Snow. Thanks.

jason436
07-15-2006, 06:46 PM
Considering just the players I think West is the best fit. He's a good defender, good shooter and he has some experience starting for the Celtics at PG. He's not Steve Nash, but he has some PG skills, so putting him with Lebron and Larry should only help him.

My Next pick would be Banks. I know he isn't proven but he's quick and he can play defense. I'm sticking by the idea that if we can get a quick PG that can pressure the oppositions PG then Lebron and Larry and going to get some easy steals and easy baskets.

I liked Duhon coming out of college but I've read rumors of possible back surgery with him so I don't want to take the chance on him. I know you said to leave out how we'd acquire him but that fact that we'd have to trade with the Bulls, probably Gooden, to get him makes me like the idea even less.

cdt
07-15-2006, 06:54 PM
I'm saying Banks. He has an NBA Body, I'd prefer a bigger PG like himself. 6'2" 200 lbs..West 6'4" 180 I'm question West's long term durablity. 82 games and the playoffs, I beleive Banks would hold up much better.

Banks we can sign for Free on our own terms, and West we get Boston's contract with him which is up soon so another Free Agent to worry about. We have to deal Gooden for West and we can get Banks on the cheap.

The George
07-15-2006, 07:12 PM
West
Banks
Duhon

jason436
07-15-2006, 07:14 PM
I'm really starting to like the idea of adding Banks. Everything would be contigent on each other but I like the idea of trading Drew, Sash, and Damon to the Suns for K. Thomas, J. Jones and a first round pick. Previously I liked bringing in Barbosa but I think Banks defense would be a good fit here. Thomas could start at PF if Varejao isn't ready, and then when he is Thomas could back up PF and C. Jones would provide help off the bench at SF, and to get him some more minute we could match Lebron up against the oppositions PF, he's more then strong enough and it would be a match up nightmare for the other team.

Pioneer10
07-15-2006, 07:21 PM
West seems to be the perfect fit: good jumpshooter, good defender, and you know he can score while still deferiing to a big gun.

After that I would put Banks next ahead of Duhon simply because of Duhon's back injury.

Any of the three I would be happy to have

Karma
07-15-2006, 07:24 PM
1. West - Has the speed and size to continue being a solid defender. Decent playmaker who can play off the ball. Solid shooter. Basically his skillset compliments our other starters quite well. He basically walked in and stepped straight past Banks in Boston's rotation.

2. Duhon - Good ball handler who doesn't require alot of possessions. Perfect player to instigate the offense but allow the other perimeter players to dominate. Had a solid combination with Curry which should translate well with Ilgauskas. Has good size and quickness to guard the speedy points of the NBA.

3. Banks - Has the quicks and body to be a decent defender. Solid scorer inside off penetration. Hasn't shown that he can be a true point guard, or work off the ball.

The George
07-15-2006, 07:27 PM
Duhon would be ok to me but my problem is that we would have to deal Gooden to them to get him and I think at that point we offically make them the favorites to win the East

duhon and Sweetney for Gooden is a joke and chicago would be a darn near perfect team

Doctor K
07-15-2006, 07:31 PM
West
Banks
Duhon

West- The best in terms of overall skillset for what we need... He's a solid shooter, passer, and defender.

Banks- He's somone i've wanted for a little while now... I think he has the biggest upside of all 3 of the PG's in question... He's excellent in the full court trap and has the speed to defend anyone at his position... He's the best finisher and scorer of the 3, and he's also the quickest and the best in the open court.

Duhon- I'm not a fan...He's a career backup IMO and is the worst overall player out of the 3 (again, IMO).. Back problems should be a red flag within this organization... He's a solid on ball defender and robably the purest PG of all 3..

Karma
07-15-2006, 07:32 PM
If Chicago really do push for a move for Gooden, we can play hard ball and demand Nocioni with Duhon!

Doctor K
07-15-2006, 07:35 PM
If Chicago really do push for a move for Gooden, we can play hard ball and demand Nocioni with Duhon!That deal might go down if we get the right Pax on the phone..:thumbup:

Karma
07-15-2006, 07:41 PM
That deal might go down if we get the right Pax on the phone..:thumbup:
LMAO. I'm sure Pax would still find a way to **** us up!

cdt
07-15-2006, 07:52 PM
Nocioni is gritty, I like em.

For me it's..

Banks
West
Duhon

With Hughes missing 20 games a year on average durability is high on my checklist. Banks is built like a Mac truck and has a lot of upside. Therefor he is my first choice.

WitnessLBJ
07-15-2006, 07:55 PM
I don't think we can get Nocioni even straight up for Gooden to be honest. I would take West, Banks, Duhon in that order.

Kypus
07-15-2006, 08:42 PM
West- widest toolset and highest potential IMO. Can hit the 3, the deep 2, and passes well. Plus who else gives a shotblocking presence at the 1? :drool:
Banks
Duhon

WitnessLBJ
07-15-2006, 08:53 PM
^ West the best shot blocking point in the League

Smooth
07-15-2006, 09:01 PM
West
Duhon
Banks

1). West - Like posters have said above, he has the best possible skillset for the Cavs.. He is a pretty good defender, can shoot the ball, and doesn't need the ball to be effective.. He is also is pretty quick and doesn't turn the ball over much.. But the thing that worries me is his rail-thin body.. He really hasn't been able to stay healthy through a full season yet, and has already had a broken a finger and a thumb.. Something that is all to familiar with us, considering we have Larry Hughes.

2). Duhon - If it weren't for his back surgery, I would probably list Duhon as the #1 player available for the PG spot.. The thing I like best is his high-basketball IQ and ability to run a team.. Something that we desperately need at the PG spot; a guy who can control the team.. He aslo has a pretty good A/TO ratio which is always good... While he isn't the dead-eye 3PT shooter, he certainly isn't bad.. He is a career 36% shooter, and has shown improvement each season, which is encouraging..

And finally his defense.. Something he is the best in when considering all of these PG's... He can guard the quicker PG's and can guard the bigger guards at the same time..

The only problem is how do we acquire him? If we send Gooden, we give the Bulls their biggest need... Something I don't want to do... It would probably have to come in a 3-way trade or another player on our roster that appeals to them.

3) Banks - Probably one of the biggest reasons why I rank Banks so low is because of his unproveness.. He really hasn't proven anything, and the only time he did was in the last 2 months of a non-playoff team... While he did put up stats, I just don't know if he can sustain that for a full season..

On offense he is probably the 2nd best... He can get to the hole and finish, but he really isn't much of an outside shooter... Something that we really need with having LJ and LH... I also don't like his A/TO ratio... But, I think that is due to lack of PT and expierence... Although, his inability to run an offense worries me..

On defense he is probably the 2nd best behind Duhon... While I know he is good at pressuing the ball, I don't he is the man-to-man defender that Duhon is... He does solve the problem of the ability to guard quicker guards..

Overall he is certainly a good option... But the one area he has a edge in is that he can stay healthy consistently...


I wouldn't mind any of them... Just as long we have an upgrade next year.

CleveRocks
07-15-2006, 09:44 PM
West
Banks
Duhon (only because of the back surgery..)

NarlCavs
07-15-2006, 11:08 PM
1. West
2. Banks
3. Duhon

West is a great for for the Cavs. He's just the type of G who can play with and play off LeBron and Hughes. He also brings nice size and quickness to the backcourt.

Banks does have potential but is still kind of a risk. The biggest problem with him is that he isn't the greatest perimeter shooter. He's ok but doesn't hit many 3's and his good FG% is mostly due to drives and short range shots. The Cavs PG will get a lot of open spot up jumpers. I do like Banks but only at a reasonable contract.

Duhon seems to be more of a backup to me. He does hit 3's but isn't that great a perimeter shooter. His back surgery should be a worry.

To me West is easily the best fit.

Wine and Gold
07-15-2006, 11:13 PM
It's clearly West at the top of that heap. To me, it not really a horse race for the number one slot of those three.

Coming in #2 would be Banks, but that's really only due to back problems with Duhon. With Hughes fragility in the backcourt, adding what could be another fragile piece to our backcourt mix could leave us vulnerable.

So, even though...injury aside I'd likely rank Duhon ahead of Banks ..the back problem is not one that can be discounted. And the difference in ability between the two is really negligible..to be honest.

Little Seizer
07-16-2006, 12:15 AM
I think Duhon is highly over-rated on our board.

He's soooooo inconsistent.

LyXo
07-16-2006, 03:40 AM
Duhon should be the #1 choice for our team.... he's the player we've been crying for since Snow got here: the McInnis + Snow, the Jones + Snow... pretty much an Eric Snow that is younger, quicker, and can shoot.

The #1 reason why I stopped campaigning for him was his back problems. That sounds recurring... something that we should stay away from, and also something that you don't trade Drew Gooden for... unless you get additional talent on top of that.. I'd gladly take Luol Deng or Andres Nocioni off them with Duhon in a trade for Gooden.

West is also a great option... It seems that we should be able to trade for him, for Gooden... salary is probably the #1 issue... nobody's going to pay him 6 years, 60 million.

Banks is distant 3rd for me... I'd be satisfied that we tried to do something (only if we traded Damon Jones)... but still clamoring because despite his "run" with Minnesota, he didn't get close to standing up to Delonte West, nor do anything meaningful except for shining in a team headed for distaster....

Glen Infante
07-16-2006, 06:04 AM
I've always been a big fan of Delonte West. I like his overall game, decent in every catagory.

If we somehow found a way to bring West to Cleveland, I may have a new favorite Cavalier.

The George
07-16-2006, 11:55 AM
it looks like Drew will be our way to land Delonte and filler

I bwt anything that Doc rivers is right in Danny Aniges ear telling him to go get Drew....Rivers has always spoken very highly of him anytime ive seen him tlk about him

Jon
07-16-2006, 12:02 PM
And I bet Aingle is saying, great idea! Now try to convince Ferry to take back Raef and/or Veal...

The George
07-16-2006, 12:07 PM
Raef is playing for Portland now buddy......Veal well if we take him I will be upset....that guy is terrible

CBBI
07-16-2006, 12:14 PM
I'd take Scalabrine in a second to land West. i have no problem with that guy sitting on our bench for the next 4 years as long as we have West who IS that good.

Jon
07-16-2006, 12:17 PM
Well allright, I just checked HoopsHype. Ratliff and Wally are the only significant tradeable salaries they seem to have, but they're too big for us to take back unless we throw in a bunch more. Veal is too small, and West is even smaller ... only worth 1M. Any trade proposal is made a mess by the likely BYC status of Gooden.

The George
07-16-2006, 12:25 PM
ya I am not a BYC expert but if Boston wants to give Drew what he wants then we will have to take Ratliff back

Ratliff....12 mill
West.....2mill

Gooden..9mill
Jones....4mill

those salaries match up

Little Seizer
07-16-2006, 12:40 PM
Im not doubting anyone but...

Do we have any reason to believe that the Cavs ARE in fact pursuing West?

Have there been rumors?

Jon
07-16-2006, 01:02 PM
Thanks to the BYC, Drew's value is closer to 5 mil to us, but Boston needs to clear the full 9M (or whatever they agree to pay him). We'd have to take back less money, and the slop would have to be taken up via the salary match rule, a trade exception, cap space, etc.

Smooth
07-16-2006, 03:20 PM
West is also a great option...


You better take into consideration that he can't stay healthy:

'05-06 = 71 games
'04-05 = 39 games

Here is quick list of his injuries:

19-Apr-06: Missed the last 5 games of the regular season (calf injury).
12-Apr-06: Calf injury, day-to-day.
12-Mar-06: Missed 3 games (groin).
07-Mar-06: Groin, day-to-day.
28-Nov-05: Missed 2 games (hip injury).
25-Nov-05: Hip injury, day-to-day.
21-Jan-05: Missed 26 games (hand injury).
01-Dec-04: Hand injury, injured list.
29-Nov-04: Hand injury, day-to-day.
26-Nov-04: Missed 10 games (thumb injury).
01-Nov-04: Thumb injury, injured list.

Looks to me like he has trouble keeping everything together... Thumb, hand, hip, groin, calf.. That's a lot of things to worry about.. Especially with us already having our own injury boy in LH.. Not to mention, just like LH, Delonte has a rail-thin body (6'4 180)... And don't overlook the fact, West has little muscle, which impacts his durability and hurts him in strength match-ups against bigger guards..

ootbttnlagitnbasf
07-16-2006, 03:56 PM
duhon had his back surgery this summer. supposedly, he is recovering and in good shape. the bulls are not worried about his ability to perform physically.

the gooden thing about duhon is that his team wins. in college. in the nba.

how many of our players can say that they've made the playoffs every year in the nba?

classic
07-17-2006, 06:56 PM
You better take into consideration that he can't stay healthy:

'05-06 = 71 games
'04-05 = 39 games

Here is quick list of his injuries:

19-Apr-06: Missed the last 5 games of the regular season (calf injury).
12-Apr-06: Calf injury, day-to-day.
12-Mar-06: Missed 3 games (groin).
07-Mar-06: Groin, day-to-day.
28-Nov-05: Missed 2 games (hip injury).
25-Nov-05: Hip injury, day-to-day.
21-Jan-05: Missed 26 games (hand injury).
01-Dec-04: Hand injury, injured list.
29-Nov-04: Hand injury, day-to-day.
26-Nov-04: Missed 10 games (thumb injury).
01-Nov-04: Thumb injury, injured list.

Looks to me like he has trouble keeping everything together... Thumb, hand, hip, groin, calf.. That's a lot of things to worry about.. Especially with us already having our own injury boy in LH.. Not to mention, just like LH, Delonte has a rail-thin body (6'4 180)... And don't overlook the fact, West has little muscle, which impacts his durability and hurts him in strength match-ups against bigger guards..

I know I've been pushing for getting West if we HAVE to trade Drew, but Larry and West do have the similar "frail" build. It's a concern.

Even with that I still have to rate them in this order:

1. West
2. Duhon
3. Banks

Banks is appealing simply because if we are "willing to spend the money" we don't have to give anyone up.

I like West for his overall defense(although he really doesn't stop some dribble penetration from smaller guards), and his pure shooting.

Duhon actually is the best defender. His jumper still makes me nervous. I know it's better than it was, but I can't help it, I just don't have alot of faith in it.

The problem with Duhon is that we just can't trade Drew to the Bulls, we just can't. So I have to just take Duhon off the list.

If we are willing to pay Drew, then I hope we try to get Banks.

If we are not willing to pay Drew, I still think West and Lorenzen Wright(if possible) at PF, not center, would actually make the team better. Wright can guard the PF spot. He just is a bit light to guard the center spot. He wouldn't be an offensive non guard like AV. So if Drew leaves, I'd be ok with West and Wright.

ChicagoCavFan
07-17-2006, 07:00 PM
Welcome classic, if you're the same dude from the cavs.com boards.

The comparison in discussion between here and there is night and day.

The George
07-17-2006, 07:03 PM
you aint lyin Chicago....i cant even look at that sitwe anymore...its as bad as ESPN boards


I understand the concern about West's defensive abilities but is he a much much better than Jones and he is better defending quick guards than Snow.....plus he can shoot so I think you gotta give some to get some and he would be a huge upgrade over what we have

Smooth
07-17-2006, 07:11 PM
Welcome classic, if you're the same dude from the cavs.com boards.

The comparison in discussion between here and there is night and day.

It's the same classic...

Your right about it being night and day.

There needs to be a literacy test before you can sign up for the board.. Half of them think what is spelled "wat" and the other half don't know how to use "are" & "our"... :chuckles: I think it's the fact all of them are currently in 5th grade and below..

Although there are some very knowledgeable posters on there..

classic
07-17-2006, 07:26 PM
you aint lyin Chicago....i cant even look at that sitwe anymore...its as bad as ESPN boards


I understand the concern about West's defensive abilities but is he a much much better than Jones and he is better defending quick guards than Snow.....plus he can shoot so I think you gotta give some to get some and he would be a huge upgrade over what we have

Yeah the same guy. I just spent about 30 minutes editing posts, and honestly I couldn't edit anymore. I didn't have time to post anything because I had to edit so much.

Well I did get in a Balkman Joke.

Oddly enough, I don't think that guy is that bad.

Some of the posting on Cavs.com has gone down a bit.

We're working on improving it. There will be some things done that will make it more organized in the near future, but I just wanted to see what people here thought about some of the same topics that were posted on Cavs.com.

It seems to me so far you can actually post an opinion on here a bit more easily without people clamoring to defend some players that simply don't merit defending anymore. And by defending I mean swearing, and some fairly irrational arguements.

I still moderate for Cavs.com and am going to spend most of my time on there, but I do like this site.

There are going to be some improvements with respect to some of the postings though. I mean I've tried to keep things a bit more organized but the VOLUME of posting is astonishing. All the mods are really putting in alot of effort.

I haven't checked out the hoopshype forums, and I just basically use the realgm.com forums for reference.

I am pretty busy. I'd like to blog for chmura sports and make more comments here but organizing Cavs.com takes alot of time.

classic
07-17-2006, 07:33 PM
There needs to be a literacy test before you can sign up for the board


I know.

I honestly want to go into some of the "titles" of threads and just correct the spelling of the titles themselves.

I don't know what happend....

Basically Cavs.com is very public, and just has such a high user volume it is hard to control most of the time.

The George
07-17-2006, 10:55 PM
I used to post over there all of the time until I found RCF....quality over quantity for me

best team site in the business

ChicagoCavFan
07-17-2006, 11:09 PM
(note: sorry to hijack the thread...)

Didn't realize you were a mod over there...haven't checked that mod list in a while. It is a major undertaking - the main site is a draw for kids of all ages, and it leads right to the forums, where craziness can ensue. Seems the more net-saavy people can find this place.

I still check over there every day during the season, even nowadays to get some other opinion on topics. But these days I'm more of a reader, with checking on the 2 Browns sites I frequent, and the Indians scout board. Geez - living away from Cleveland, I need my sports scoop. How else do I get it? Maybe hbomber20 can deliver to Chicago? :)

Doctor K
07-17-2006, 11:12 PM
Welcome classic... I'm LePIP but everyone calls me LePIP :chuckles:

WitnessLBJ
07-17-2006, 11:49 PM
lol pip

aaronr
07-18-2006, 07:22 AM
Thanks for all of the perspective. I guess after perusing this thread I'd opt for Duhon assuming his back is ok. The following ranks him as the best point guard defender in the league: http://www.82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm. His quickness certainly is apparent when you watch him, so I think he'd cut down on the penetrations from the perimeter that bedevil Z and the other front-line defenders. Plus, he's been well coached and he's an inexpensive option for a couple years if he doesn't work out. That said, I'd take either of the other two if Duhon couldn't be acquired. No Mo Snow, No Mo Snow, No Mo Snow.

Karma
07-18-2006, 07:30 AM
Duhon is the superior defender and playmaker of the three. Being a point guard that should be highlighted. He has a friendly contract, but how we get him will be interesting. I'm not frightened to send Drew there like others, so we will see.

cav jvl
07-18-2006, 08:08 AM
West is the best out of that group, but I think a sign and trade of Gooden should bring us a much better player than those three. Remember, as frustrating as it is to watch Drew at times, he is still a young athletic big with good numbers, good attitude and lots of upside.

Style
07-18-2006, 09:27 AM
West is the best out of that group, but I think a sign and trade of Gooden should bring us a much better player than those three. Remember, as frustrating as it is to watch Drew at times, he is still a young athletic big with good numbers, good attitude and lots of upside.
That is my hope; however very few on this site have the patience to wait for a deal to develop. It's good that Ferry is our GM, and not some of you RCFers who would make a move just because you're bored.

LyXo
07-18-2006, 10:06 AM
At this point, I know what Gooden will do should he go to the Bulls. Everyone will rave that he'll be a 20/10 guy.. He'll certainly have his 25 point, 14 rebound nights. But then he'll have his 14 point, 6 rebound nights, 6 point, 8 rebound nights.... and Skiles will find this out and it will add to his frustration. He'll end up somewhere around 17 ppg, 8 rpg. Not to mention the fact that he won't be pulling down many boards with Ben Wallace next to him.

However, if we do trade Gooden to the Bulls, we must get something more of value in return. Andres Nocioni, or Luol Deng thrown in the deal along with Duhon. Then my interest will be more solid. Since Drew is playing the 4, then I would imagine they'd be more inclined to trade away one of these 3/4's.

bomber
07-18-2006, 10:09 AM
(note: sorry to hijack the thread...)

Didn't realize you were a mod over there...haven't checked that mod list in a while. It is a major undertaking - the main site is a draw for kids of all ages, and it leads right to the forums, where craziness can ensue. Seems the more net-saavy people can find this place.

I still check over there every day during the season, even nowadays to get some other opinion on topics. But these days I'm more of a reader, with checking on the 2 Browns sites I frequent, and the Indians scout board. Geez - living away from Cleveland, I need my sports scoop. How else do I get it? Maybe hbomber20 can deliver to Chicago? :)
for my man Chicago, consider it done. I'll star pedalin soon, see ya thursday. lol

ChicagoCavFan
07-18-2006, 10:16 AM
My gosh, if we can get Nocioni from the Bulls, I will run down Michigan Ave with my birds in the air. I love this guys game - absolutely love it. IMO, he can be the piece that can send us to the top seed in the East. I would even consider resigning Drew and giving them AV for Noc straight up. That's how much I like him.

And lol bomber - was wondering if you'd catch that...

LyXo
07-18-2006, 10:21 AM
My gosh, if we can get Nocioni from the Bulls, I will run down Michigan Ave with my birds in the air. I love this guys game - absolutely love it. IMO, he can be the piece that can send us to the top seed in the East. I would even consider resigning Drew and giving them AV for Noc straight up. That's how much I like him.

And lol bomber - was wondering if you'd catch that...

You give Stupid to the Bulls. You don't give Varejao to them.

World B ThAreee
07-18-2006, 10:56 AM
Actually, as much as I love AV's game (and how well it fills a need for the Cavs), I'd almost rather see him in Chicago instead of Gooden. I can't see the Bulls wanting another energetic big with NO O, though. They want Gooden, and if we trade him there we'd better get Nocioni and Duhon. Leave Sweetney there...

Does anyone know how those salaries would work? Would the rumored Jones to Houston deal help in that regard?

NarlCavs
07-18-2006, 03:02 PM
I would not trade with the Bulls and give them Gooden. The Cavs biggest division rival in the coming years will be Chicago and I wouldn't do anything that could help them. Gooden could be a good fit with the Bulls because he would be surrounded by good defenders and could focus on what he does best.
I also don't like the rumors of getting Duhon and Sweetney in return. Duhon is an ok player but he's more of a career backup to me and I only see him as a minor upgrade, if any real upgrade at all. Sweetney is an undersized fat PF who I doubt would see many minutes in Cleveland.
The Bulls wouldn't give up players like Gordon and Nocioni.

I still think Delonte West's overall game and skills are a great fit with the Cavs and with the Cavs main players. He's athletic, is a solid defender, has decent PG skills despite being a combo G, and is a pretty good perimeter shooter (the best among the trio of he, Duhon and Banks). West's game fits much better with the Cavs and their style and players than it does in Boston.
The Cavs and Celtics seem to be a great match for a trade. It would be great if the Gooden negotiations continue going poorly if a sign and trade with them can be completed.

Smooth
07-18-2006, 03:06 PM
I still think Delonte West's overall game and skills are a great fit with the Cavs and with the Cavs main players. He's athletic, is a solid defender, has decent PG skills despite being a combo G, and is a pretty good perimeter shooter (the best among the trio of he, Duhon and Banks). West's game fits much better with the Cavs and their style and players than it does in Boston.


I agree that West would be a good fit here... But you have to be aware of his injury plagued seasons, and rail-thin body.. We already have both of those qualities in one of our players, but do we want it in another?

I know West is a good shooter, and is a serviceable defender, but he does have trouble agaisnt the more physical type guards..

Mac
07-18-2006, 04:46 PM
We are in love with trading a starting, legit, good, young PF for other teams bench guards.

NarlCavs
07-18-2006, 05:49 PM
Mac, I hear what you're saying but if Gooden and his agent continue with their outrageous contract demands than the Cavs need to get some value for him rather than lose him for nothing.
If the Cavs can get a good young G who could be here long term in a sign and trade than that would be a good thing.

I also think that even if Gooden is resigned that he will be traded at some point in the future.

cav jvl
07-19-2006, 12:53 AM
Maybe Ferry was targeting all these guys along with the older guys like Wesley and Cassell until he saw what S. Brown could do in Vegas. Seems everybody was quite impressed.