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CleveRocks
01-17-2007, 09:42 AM
Inspired by various reports that Kidd might be available.

I know most of you will say we don't have the pieces, and perhaps we don't, but the Nets are out of it They are moving. They are losing Vince next year and their remaining star has jjust come out of the closet. SO

How about Larry Hughes, Eric Snow, and AV for Jason Kidd, Mikki Moore and Antione Wright. It works salary wise.

I know we are talking glass man hughes here, but he fits the nets sans Kidd at least as well as he fits us. The Nets have a real future point guard in Marcus Williams, and with Snow as a back up, they will be fine. They also get a real future center in AV. The nets retain a scoring power three.

I know Jason Kidd is aging and may have questionable knees. But he has been there and done that in the playoffs, and he can certainly run an offense. Kidd has two more years on his contract which would expire just as LeBron gets re-upped, and by that time Gibson should be in full swing. You might say that is too disruptive on the core since Snow and Hughes are both starters, but the fact is that Snow should not be starting and Larry has not really been starting most of the season. In effect we would be playing with a lot of the line up we already play with. Wright is an improvement over Pavs to play the five minutes that lebron isn't playing.

Our line up might be:

Jones/Gibson/Wesley
Kidd/Jones/Pavs
James/Wright/Pavs
Gooden/Marshall/Pollard
Z/Moore/Pollard

If we could manage a trade of expiring contracts for a decent 2/3 back up (Maggette?), we would be pretty tough. I would think a decent 2/3 would be easier to find than a starting point guard.

Color me crazy, but I hope the front office looks at this one.

cdt
01-17-2007, 09:44 AM
Never in a million years...if J-Kidd goes anywhere it'll probably be home to the Lakers..

CleveRocks
01-17-2007, 09:49 AM
The guy is in New Jersey for heaven's sake. Cleveland would be an upgrade.

Benny08302
01-17-2007, 09:59 AM
I'm sure if Kidd is available, Danny Ferry would be doing everything he can to acquire him. Kidd makes every one he plays with better... imagine LeBron with a point guard who could get him 2-3 easy baskets a game...

Lord knows what the Nets want or the Cavs have, I'd imagine Hughes/Gibson/Brown/Varejao would all have to be involved, as well as the expiring deals (Pollard, Wesley, Pavs).

Part of me thinks that the Nets are a prime team to blow up and rebuild, with their vets, their problems and the move. However, they are in the Atlantic... so if they have a decent two weeks, they'll be ahead in the division. Not saying it isn't possible, but if they were in another division, where they'd actually have to be good to make the playoffs, it'd be much more likely.

CornerThree
01-17-2007, 10:04 AM
3 rotation players for one is usually a good deal. Especially when they are NBDL'ers like Moore. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: What's the matter, this shit got locked on realgm, and now it's coming over here?

LyXo
01-17-2007, 10:52 AM
I don't think that we'll necessarily be interested in Jason Kidd, if he were available.

Of course it has been proven this season that he still has skills, he still is a triple double threat and still is a dominant PG in terms of setting people up and generating offense. He surprised many by continuing to be in good shape and top form despite critics labeling him injury prone with bad knees.

But his contract still extends, what... 3 years, with 60 million in salary due? He's about to be 34... He could break down at any point (just as easily as he'll succeed for the remainder of his contract). Is it a risk we're willing to take?

And, that deal is proposterous. Snow, Hughes, AV for Kidd, Moore, and whatshisface? It may seem good from our perspective, but do you really think that New Jersey would like another huge addition to their already overgluttoned, overpayed wing core? That also happens to be injury prone? No way.

Any deal for Kidd will likely deplete us of a frontcourt (that's where they want help), and also have to include some draft picks. Not going to happen under Ferry's watch. We will not end up with Donyell Marshall as our starting center. Or Mikki Moore, or Jason Collins for that matter.

Sure, Kidd would look good in a Cavs uniform next to LeBron. However, like EVERY other good player out there, teams will NOT accept our garbage for their quality players.


I doubt Kidd is on the block, we should be more interested in Vince Carter. Ilgauskas will garner their interest, and although he's been quite the anchor here, going smaller by adding superstar talent could be beneficial. It's a huge bomb to throw on the team, but could end up being extremely successful in the short term. It also gives us financial flexibility because Carter's contract could end next season if he chooses, or in a couple if he decides to stay.

CleveRocks
01-17-2007, 01:21 PM
OK Lyxo
lets start with whether or not Kidd can be had.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spberg175055735jan17,0,3654086.column?coll=ny-sports-print

And there are other reports.

ASSUMING Kidd can be had for the sake of discussion.

1) You speak with a forked tongue. In one line, you describe Kidd as
He's about to be 34... He could break down at any point
and a few lines later you say NJ would never take Hughes because

That (Hughes) also happens to be injury prone? No way. They are both health risks. Kidd is fighting father time and Larry just his own frailty.

2) About New Jerseys over paid wing core. By trading out Kidd, the Nets save 10 million dollars over the three years. Vince can option for another year, but has made noise about moving closer to home (wherever that is). The Nets have shopped him too, without success. That leaves R Jefferson, who will be very tough to trade with his recent outing. In the end The Nets wind up with two star quality players in RJeff and Hughes, to anchor a team with guys like Marcus Williams coming along, and with AV, they would be competitve in the sucka$$ division they are part of. In the mean time they could start Williams, Hughes,Carter, RJeff and AV and run like phoenix. They might make the playoffs, and they certainly would be entertaining to watch. (= butts is seats)

3) I don't see this as having to involve draft picks (which we don't have) or our front court beyond AV. Mikki Moore is servicable as a back up to Z. I don't see us able to move Tuna, with him playing off this year, but Gooden, Tuna, Z and Moore is good enough for me (assuming we fix the point guard problem)


4) I am surprised no one attacked the trade on its most obvious problem, which is that Snow and Larry are supposed to be our best defenders. Given Browns Defense first philosophy, and the progress we have made as a defensive unit, I would think someone would have pointed that one out. instead I got a lot of "Gee, New Jersey would want more than we can give and they wouls rape us" BS.
5) Whether or not NJ would do the deal depends on where their GM is going and on how JK feels about being traded. If he wants another shot at a ring, where better to go than here? (I don't want to hear about LA, what do they trade, Smush Parker? anybody for Kwame Brown?). Houston maybe, but what do you get from them? The high dollar trio is not getting it done, and the GM knows that much. So how do you break it up and position for a fast rebuild in Brooklyn?

Anyway, I understand if you don't like the trade. I am OK with constructive criticism, just don't make up a lot of crap and lay it out there.

TruBuckeye22
01-17-2007, 02:24 PM
uhm what if Kidd's wife drops a bug on him and then sells vital Cavs info to the Bulls or Pisstons?

LyXo
01-17-2007, 03:51 PM
Well, CleveRocks, it appears that your post is a deliberate attempt to insult mine... but you're seemingly looking at it cross-eyed considering you're digging your own little holes into my words and spinning the truth.


ASSUMING Kidd can be had for the sake of discussion.

1) You speak with a forked tongue. In one line, you describe Kidd as


He's about to be 34... He could break down at any point


First of all, you misquoted me, doing your best impression of FOX News. I said, Kidd could break down at any point.. which may or not be a fair statement, so I ADDED, in parentheses:


(just as easily as he'll succeed for the remainder of his contract). Is it a risk we're willing to take?

I posed a question, if we were willing to take this risk of him being at the peak of his career, only to go downhill. To me, he seems a stopgap option, something worthwhile for (if the trade somehow goes through) the remainder of this season, and maybe next season as well. It is a good risk if we are pressed to win a championship NOW... but from the past moves of the front office, we seem to be forging chemistry and staying the course with our core group of players we brought in.


That (Hughes) also happens to be injury prone? No way.

What I said...


And, that deal is proposterous. Snow, Hughes, AV for Kidd, Moore, and whatshisface? It may seem good from our perspective, but do you really think that New Jersey would like another huge addition to their already overgluttoned, overpayed wing core? That also happens to be injury prone? No way.

I do apologize for being a bit ambiguous. I was referring to Carter being injury prone... being on and off the court in Toronto with ankle and knee problems, and now with back issues (T-mac has done quite well in the past...). Who knows, he could even start sulking again if his playmaker disappears.
Jefferson has been struggling this year with a nagging ankle injury (but playing through it).
Even with that, I should have done a bit more research, as both have been relatively healthy in the past few seasons, only missing a handful of games (Jefferson did rupture a ligament in his wrist missing 50 games, but more of a freak injury.) But knee, ankle, and back problems have always shown to be reoccuring, and it always seems to be a

Still, adding Hughes to that deuce of big contracts... I don't think that's the best move... whether you agree with me or not.

And considering they can't compete in a "sucka$$" division when the only one truly performing is their superstar PG... do they get rid of that? And will they get better if they trade their best player, one of the best playmakers in the NBA?

What NJN prefers is certainly not known to us, so any opinion on that matter is merely that.. an opinion. You think they'd be competitive by throwing their rookie at the PG reigns, stuff Jefferson at PF and AV at C, and start running. I think they'd prefer to fill the low post gap they've been missing by trying to acquire Z... or maybe Gooden. Both opinions, with our own reasons to back them up.


3) I don't see this as having to involve draft picks (which we don't have) or our front court beyond AV. Mikki Moore is servicable as a back up to Z. I don't see us able to move Tuna, with him playing off this year, but Gooden, Tuna, Z and Moore is good enough for me (assuming we fix the point guard problem)

From what I have seen in the past, trades for superstar calibur players... they seem to have involved future picks in the deals, because obtaining players of equal value is nearly impossible.

Allen Iverson... 2 first rounders
Vince Carter... 2 first rounders
even Kenyon Martin... 3 first rounders!
and Joe Johnson... 2 first rounders...
Shaquille O'Neal.. 1 first rounder (with Odom & Caron Butler)

I just sense some sort of "trend" when you trade these types of players. I don't think Kidd is any different.


4) I am surprised no one attacked the trade on its most obvious problem, which is that Snow and Larry are supposed to be our best defenders. Given Browns Defense first philosophy, and the progress we have made as a defensive unit, I would think someone would have pointed that one out. instead I got a lot of "Gee, New Jersey would want more than we can give and they wouls rape us" BS.

Why? Defenders gone? Considering Mr. Kidd's past and your adamant defense of him... he's a pretty darn good defender, one of the best at his position. My, just in the past 2 games he has shut down opposition PG's (Gordon and TJ Ford), as he has in his career. So, I don't see why it should be a problem, as he instantly becomes the best defender on the squad. The problem does lie at our shooting guard... who will start?



In the end, I really don't see us making a move for Kidd.. it doesn't seem like it's in the front office's plans to make a big shakeup. We're appeared to be headed in the right course right now... a small move here and there might be apparent, but nothing big and drastic, because we don't have anyone disgruntled, we don't have any news drama... we don't have the true reason to make such a significant move.

NarlCavs
01-17-2007, 05:44 PM
The Cavs don't have the pieces to be able to trade for any major players. It's too bad but it's a fact.

Cavs also don't have the draft picks that are needed to make most of these types of trades.
They really can only look at smaller trades now and only going after players who can be signed for MLE level contracts during the free agency period.

ctownhommie
01-17-2007, 07:21 PM
I keep hearing that the Cavs dont have the pieces to make a BIG deal work...I dont believe it!

The Nets and Kings are falling apart. Be patient Danny. The Perfect Storm could happen.

Hughes,Snow,SBrown for Bibby
or
Hughes,Gooden,SBrown for Kidd

WitnessLBJ
01-17-2007, 07:49 PM
Hughes,Gooden,SBrown for Kidd

Show me where to sign

Coyote
01-18-2007, 03:02 AM
I'd rather give up a lot and take a chance on Bibby than Kidd. JKidd's obviously the better of the two, but he's much older and the door is closing. Unless the plan is to pray for his health and hope he can groom Gibson.

I have to admit, though, I see Sacto as being less motivated to move Bibby than the Nets to move Kidd. They are weak on the interior, so we'd all but have to send Gooden (esp. for salaries), or maybe we could get them to smoke a lot of **** and take Marshall. Bibby's magic number is $13.5 mil, I think.

Snow, Gooden, Sasha?
Snow, Gooden, GIBSON?
Straight up Hughes for Bibby? Then we're back to having complete junk at the 2.

I haven't double-checked the salaries...too tired. Cheers.

*sigh*

CleveRocks
01-18-2007, 06:10 AM
Hey Lyxo,

I am not insulting anyone's post. I certainly don't want to turn this into a JonVA he said she said..

Your second post is a much more thorough explaination of your position. It boils down to whether or not you buy the premise that the nets are going to have to tear down before they rebuild, and that is known only to Mr. Thorn.

I agree that the trend is to trade for picks. And that is one thing we do not have. But there are worse deals being done (Indianapolis for example).

For the sake of discussion, you asked if the Nets get better by trading Kidd, and my answer is yes, if the get Hughes and AV in the deal. They aren't very good now, so improvement is not all that difficult. We can't just dismiss Marcus Williams as some rookie. He is averaging 6 points and 3 assists in just 16 minutes. Without question, if he were a Cav he would be starting, but he is backing up Jason Kidd. The nets production problems are down low, at power forward and center. AV is better than what they have in both positions.

I totally agree with you that hughes is a sell job to the nets. He is not an ideal fit on todays team. But it seems obvious to me that the Nets are not viable as todays team. You have three stars that can't win. If I were to describe the ideal nets trade for Kidd it would be an expiring but expensive Big, a young dual position big and a first rounder in next years draft. Seattle and Memphis are the only two teams which might be abel two stitch that together that might be a lot better with a good poiint, and I think both teams are more likely to sit tight and see what they get in the draft.

Anyway you are likely right that we won't get it done. We will see.

cav jvl
01-18-2007, 08:17 AM
Kidd would be a great addition. PG would be a strenth and would bridge to Gibson. But we can't mortgage the whole future by giving up too many young players, He IS on the old side now. Also don't be so quick to trade Gooden. With a real PG, he could be really good.

Benny08302
01-18-2007, 09:36 AM
I've been against the Cavs making a trade just to make a trade. I'd rather not give up Gibson or Brown (even though he hasn't played). Those two (and Andy) are really the only guys teams are going to want that the Cavs can realistically part with (considering age and contracts). [I forgot Gooden, his contract makes him very tradeable]

Do I trade one of those guys for Corey Maggette? No. (Don't get me wrong, Maggette is nice, but is he really a wing player you want with LeBron? Maggette is a bulldog who hits the post and drive the lane, drawing fouls. He's good and he's probably a small upgrade over Hughes. But he's not much of a shooter. The Cavs, with (LeBron and Z) need guys who can knock down the open 15-24 footers easy. Guys who can simply shoot; if they can't drive or slash that well, I don't really care. They need guys who are money when left open. Maggette, Earl Watson... those guys are upgrades, don't get me wrong, but they aren't exactly the pieces you give up a lot to get.)

But Jason Kidd? In a heartbeat. (And I know, he's not exactly a sweet shooter from the outside either). Assuming they still have LeBron and Z after the deal (I can't imagine the Nets trading for Ilgauskas's contract), adding Kidd would boost the offense dramatically. He's a Hall of Famer, a triple double threat every night, plays strong defense (Eric Snow levels) and makes his teammates better. Plus he's been to the Finals (twice).

Both Z and LeBron would improve by simply getting a couple easier baskets a game. LeBron would actually get to play with another HoF'er and the Cavs would have veteran running the point who teams actually have to pay attention to. Plus, he'll give the team a boost, shake things up and give them some swagger and confidence.

Mr Wilson
01-18-2007, 09:51 AM
we need jason kidd, he is old but has a great ass cess to the game.

chiefwahoo
01-18-2007, 09:53 AM
we need jason kidd, he is old but has a great ass cess to the game.

:eek:

Mr Wilson
01-18-2007, 10:10 AM
my bad, i did not mean it like that.

chiefwahoo
01-18-2007, 10:11 AM
my bad, i did not mean it like that.

I know, just messing with you. Welcome to RCF. :welcome:

Benny08302
01-18-2007, 06:27 PM
Heh, Windhorst slaps down (http://blogs.ohio.com/cavaliers_blog/2007/01/whoa_whoa_whoa.html) the Kidd talk:


Please stop running whatever trade machine you use or speculating about Jason Kidd. Yes, there's been some reports the Nets would be willing to trade him. Of course they would, he's owed a crazy amount of money and he's nearing the end of his career. Would he help the Cavs? Are you kidding? The guy is a Hall of Famer, of course he would. But until you can answer me this question, I have absolutely no use hearing or reading any more trade nonsense: Why would the Nets make a trade to improve the Cavs? Next.

cavs_playa23
01-18-2007, 06:56 PM
Heh, Windhorst slaps down (http://blogs.ohio.com/cavaliers_blog/2007/01/whoa_whoa_whoa.html) the Kidd talk:


Great find...here's another quote from the end of the blog

"--After the game Wednesday Mike Brown was as fired up as I've seen him in a year and a half. Closest I can remember was in Dallas last season after the Cavs blew big leads to the Heat and Mavs on the same road trip. But that was understandable, those teams were the best in the league. Not the same with the Blazers. Anyway, Mike was going on about how the team ought to be embarrassed and ashamed and all that, it was good stuff. I went into the locker room a few minutes later and many Cavs were just laughing and carrying on. Guess they didn't feel the same way. So, they're not worrying about it, why should you, right?"

The end is very dis-heartening (sp?)

Deadlock
01-18-2007, 11:46 PM
Channel 5 just reported that Ferry has contacted the Nets for Kidd.

Not sure what to think as of yet. He would be AMAZING to have but how much would we have to lose?

B Mac
01-19-2007, 12:30 AM
Channel 5? Huh. Well if it was 43 then I wouldnt have given it a second thought, but I at least know that channel 5 tries to make their reports realistic, and not like a tabloid.

Im quite sure that Ferry contacted the Nets about Kidd. Im also quite sure that every other GM in the league contacted the Nets about Kidd. Finally Im also quite sure that Ferry hung up the phone knowing that there was no way we could give up what the Nets were asking for Kidd.

Maximus
01-19-2007, 12:50 AM
Zero chance of a trade for Kidd....unless it involves Lebron.

WitnessLBJ
01-19-2007, 06:05 AM
You guys have no idea what Kidd would do to this team....

Kidd and Lebron are instant title contenders....Kidd made Kenyon Martin an all star for crying out loud and is just as good or better defender than Hughes..

MarkPrice25
01-19-2007, 07:03 AM
We'll get Kidd via trade the day after Ira Newble goes for 25 off the bench and Eric Snow posts a triple double.

Maximus
01-19-2007, 10:34 AM
You guys have no idea what Kidd would do to this team....

I don't think you have any idea what it would take to get him here for two years. Stars are extremely expensive. It would take 1 or 2 first rounders AND we don't have one this summer. This which means me must draft in 2 years and the earliest NJ could cash in would be in 3 years. It would also take a couple of our best players and probably one of our rookies...so there will be some holes, no depth, and little opportunity to ever improve in the draft.

NJ will only be motivated to move Kidd for a perfect trade...that's something we can't provide without completely stripping our team.

TOM
01-19-2007, 04:08 PM
Fellow Cavs fans, our offensive struggles have gone on long enough. I am fed up with it. We desperately need a point guard that can play. New Jersey is interested in dealing Jason Kidd and I think that Danny Ferry should get the deal done immediately. What I propose is that we trade Snow and Ilgauskas for him. Andy can start at center then. He is a much better center than Z anyway and he makes much less money. Z can't run, jump, rebound or defend at all. Andy does all of these things very well. Kidd's presence would open up our offense significantly and allow Lebron to be a finisher instead of a point forward. Let me hear what you guys think. We are on the verge of a dynasty here if we could just get the point guard that we need. We will never have a chance of aquiring a point guard any better than Kidd. Strike while the iron is hot I say !!!!

PIP
01-19-2007, 04:14 PM
We are not on the verge of a dynasty.... Our SG is broke, our depth is poor, we have older vets locked into unmovable contracts, and we have a JV offense..

We're on that same dynasty plan the mid 90's Hawks, Pacers, Blazers were on... 45-55 wins, 2nd round exits...

cavs_playa23
01-19-2007, 04:17 PM
Fellow Cavs fans, our offensive struggles have gone on long enough. I am fed up with it. We desperately need a point guard that can play. New Jersey is interested in dealing Jason Kidd and I think that Danny Ferry should get the deal done immediately. What I propose is that we trade Snow and Ilgauskas for him. Andy can start at center then. He is a much better center than Z anyway and he makes much less money. Z can't run, jump, rebound or defend at all. Andy does all of these things very well. Kidd's presence would open up our offense significantly and allow Lebron to be a finisher instead of a point forward. Let me hear what you guys think. We are on the verge of a dynasty here if we could just get the point guard that we need. We will never have a chance of aquiring a point guard any better than Kidd. Strike while the iron is hot I say !!!!

you plan on getting him how?

Karma
01-19-2007, 04:46 PM
I think he is expecting to fill that post which is full of bogus claims with fantasy trades. I look forward to it.