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RchfldCavRaised
01-28-2007, 05:08 AM
Hello All!

I have been a silent spectator for quite some time now, just sitting and learning the rules of posting alas Shannon Brown style, and now I have been activated and given some spot minutes to contribute to a championship board of HOF caliber fans.
In short and without the trimmings, I am new here and do not wish to step on anyones’ toes, so I come in peace as a life long Cavalier Fan.

I have a question for all those feel as I do. (Feeling as I do referring to while I respect Larry Hughes for what he does best, I see that his strengths are only a smoother laid back version of Lebron’s strengths and do not offer any contrast comparible to some of the more historic dynamic duo’s or great teammates who feed off of the differences in each others game.)
Anyway, the question is…
I see JR Smith’s game as the perfect offensive compliment to Lebron on the floor. Now it is easy to say in retrospect, now that he is blowing up and showing that all he needed was a change in scenery and a chance to play in order to break out, but this year he is playing with a skill set which would be so deadly paired with Lebron. Clearly, his value is rapidly inclining since he has been given the opportunity to play in a system which suits his talents, so in the predicament this team is in, contract wise, he is seemingly untouchable right now.

If any of you were GMs who took on the task of finding the next wingman who could have that JR Smith impact next to Lebron, but is buried on someones bench for some reason or the other, who would you set your sights on before this trade deadline just waiting for Danny Ferry to come snatch up and give the opportunity to skyrocket into productivity bliss and superstardom? (That was my Bill Walton moment. I think he is hilarious by the way, by no means brilliant but I love his change of pace commentating)

I have a small list with the first few being not so unknown but on the cheap as it is anyway…

Gerald Green, BOS
Kirk Snyder, HOU
Rasual Butler, NO
Dahntay Jones, MEM
Martell Webster, POR
James Jones, PHX

Anyway I love this site! Hope my posts and feedback help maintain the integrity of the realest CAV Fan board

Kypus
01-28-2007, 07:32 AM
I take Gerald Green over any of these guys, he has better defensive tools than JR Smith (who is a cancer anyway IMO).

Jon
01-28-2007, 10:28 AM
I would think you'd want someone who's good without the ball, good coming off screens and making shots, and also a plus defender. Someone like Richard Hamilton? Except even he's not perfect as his 3pt% has regressed back to career norms this season (32.5%).

But I'm of the opinion that LeBron and Larry can adapt their games to each other. Jordan and Pippen didn't have a problem co-existing even though they had similiar skills. Larry's biggest weakness has been his efficiency as a shooter, and while his 2PT% is still poor, his 3PT% has been solid. And while he's better with the ball in his hands, he's not bad off the ball.

Versatility is strength, not a weakness IMO. It's just a matter of how it's used.

jason436
01-28-2007, 11:16 AM
I think Larry's three point percentage would be better if he was a little more selective. Larry shooting an open three isn't a bad shot but Larry shooting a contested three is not a good shot for him. When the guy closes out on him is when he needs to use his quickness and get to the hoop or get by the guy and use his pull up jumper from about the foul line.

Jon
01-28-2007, 11:20 AM
As his ankle improves, you'll see that.

The George
01-28-2007, 12:13 PM
welcome to the board buddy

yes I wanted JR awhile back and I really dont see how he is that much of a cancer

Gerald Green will be a big time player in a year or two no way the Celts give up on him....the rest of the list would def be guys I wouldnt mind having

RchfldCavRaised
01-28-2007, 02:39 PM
Thx for the welcome everyone!

Add Raja Bell to that list as well by the way as he is thoroughly outplaying Larry Hughes on both ends of the court tonight. in a role that Larry should emulate as opposed to the game he has brought tonight, which is kill offensive rhythm with ill timed outsde shots and subsequently feeding PHX run game.

Kypus
01-28-2007, 02:59 PM
yes I wanted JR awhile back and I really dont see how he is that much of a cancer
George Karl's alpha-dog coaching style tends to push that to the background. I don't know if Mike Brown would be able to keep him in line. We haven't had any true "bad apples" on the team yet, so it's hard to say. But I wouldn't want to risk it, JR being friends with Lebron and all.

Kypus
01-28-2007, 02:59 PM
yes I wanted JR awhile back and I really dont see how he is that much of a cancer
George Karl's alpha-dog coaching style tends to push that to the background. I don't know if Mike Brown would be able to keep him in line. We haven't had any true "bad apples" on the team yet, so it's hard to say. But I wouldn't want to risk it, JR being friends with Lebron and all.

Doctor K
01-28-2007, 03:09 PM
We have to get rid of Hughes... he doesn't have a role on this team..

He's not a 2nd option, he can't shoot, he can't finish, he turns the ball over in crucial times, and he can't stay healthy..

Even if we have to take a talent hit in return, we have to do it..

My favorite line from Cavs fans: "We're stuck with Larry, we can't get equal value for him"

Sure we can, I bet the Lakers would straight up offer Aaron Mckie for him right now ??????

cdt
01-28-2007, 03:11 PM
I'd do that trade...the guys crippled...we'd be + 10 mill in salary the next few years with money to spend on AV...

1B4IGO
01-28-2007, 03:45 PM
I'd take McKie but the guy on the list that I'd really want is Martell Webster, though I don't think Portland would give him up. Another guy to throw in the mix is Mo Peterson. He is supposedly on the block.

RchfldCavRaised
01-28-2007, 03:49 PM
And a result of watching Larry play for the Suns tonight while wearing a Cav uniform, is that we saw NO SASHA all night!

A game like tonight where defense was a afterthought would be a perfect time to use Sasha's offensive game. For all we know, we might have that swingman waiting to get the oppurtunity to play already in Cleveland wearing #3.

What I saw from Lebron today early on was the unwillingness to settle for outside jumpers, and when he does that his game is very deadly. But as PHX adjusted and doubled his drive, his ability to dish off of that extra attention was negated when Larry was on the floor with him at the same time because Larry needs to drive and get to the line to truly get his game going. Asking Larry to come out and knock down jumpers without getting himself in the flow of the game is like asking Shaq to become a ft specialist.

Once again I like Larry's game, but it clearly does not mesh with Lebron and he does not feed off of the offensive momentum when Lebron has it going. Larry looked somewhat effective when Lebron sat out that PHI game, and he would only be used to his potential, while slashing and creating offense just like Lebron does.

The only problem with that formula, is that our offense is only allowed to have one ball on the court at a time. So, when Lebron has it going, Larry is relegated to spot up long distance shooter and vice versa. I dont think this starting five will ever truly look offensively fluid or play as a group to their offensive potential until the floor is balanced out.

Did I mention how much I liked Raja Bell out there today? The way he feeds off of the other players and more than holds his own on D, I actually like him more than Barbosa in a complimentary role.

Kypus
01-28-2007, 03:51 PM
Half of Larry's minutes should have gone to Sasha. What was Brown thinking...you can't speed up a recovery by playing heavy minutes on it.

Doctor K
01-28-2007, 03:52 PM
I'll take Brent Barry....

RchfldCavRaised
01-28-2007, 03:53 PM
Your right Flight, Mo Pete would mesh very well with Lebron. It is obvious that he does not match their new style of play as much as Anthony Parker or even the other Graham kid does in Toronto. With Colangelo's fixation on internationals and Toronto's youth not making draft picks a high priority for them, I would come up with a Sasha and vet stabilizer for Mo Pete deal.

LyXo
01-28-2007, 04:03 PM
Cleveland Trade Breakdown

Outgoing
Larry Hughes
6-5 SG from St. Louis
15.0 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 3.3 apg in 36.2 minutes
Scot Pollard
6-11 C from Kansas
0.1 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 0.0 apg in 2.8 minutes
Aleksandar Pavlovic
6-7 SF from Serbia-Montenegro (Foreign)
4.8 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 0.8 apg in 14.6 minutes

Incoming
Rasho Nesterovic
7-0 C from Slovenia (Foreign)
5.9 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 0.8 apg in 21.0 minutes
Morris Peterson
6-7 SF from Michigan State
10.7 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 0.9 apg in 24.0 minutes
Jose Calderon
6-3 PG from Spain (Foreign)
8.0 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 4.5 apg in 20.3 minutes

Change in team outlook: +4.7 ppg, +4.1 rpg, and +2.1 apg.


Successful Scenario
Due to Cleveland and Toronto being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Cleveland and Toronto had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Toronto gets a solid rotation player in Hughes to plug in the hole left by Mo Pete. Can contribute to the uptempo offense by adding stealing potential, slashing ability, and passing. Get another young shooter to fit the offense in Sasha. A small contract, servicable big to replace Nesterovic's large contract.

Lose Calderon, but have Hughes to make up in that area.

Cleveland gets a pass first PG. Cleveland gets a shooter at the wing opposite LeBron. Gets a defensive big to backup Z.

Can't see Toronto doing this though...

RchfldCavRaised
01-28-2007, 04:09 PM
Actually, if anyone around the league would take a chance on Lawrence, I think it would be Colangelo as evidenced by his risk taking with TJ Ford. He saw that Villanueva was a duplicate of Bosh and he went and plugged in a team need in a matter of weeks on the job...(attn: Ferry)

I honestly think that Toronto would be a perfect fit for Larry's game, and we would be filling not one but three glaring weaknesses on this team. i'll take on Rasho's tab compared to Larry's.

cdt
01-28-2007, 04:30 PM
I wouldn't trade Larry for a guy who could leave after the season...

1B4IGO
01-28-2007, 05:13 PM
I'd trade Larry for a guy that could leave if only to free up cap space. Larry just isn't a good fit on this team. He benefited playing with Gilbert and the rest of the Wizards and had his best season in his contract year.

If Toronto would do that deal I'd pull the trigger if I'm Ferry.

NarlCavs
01-28-2007, 05:22 PM
I'm in favor of the original idea of this thread in looking for a young player who wouldn't cost a ton to acquire and has the chance to be a long term piece for the Cavs. With limited draft picks and limited payroll space the Cavs need to explore all options and be open to taking some low risk chances.

I know there were a bunch of us here in favor of trying to acquire JR Smith when he was still with the Hornets.

One name I'd add to that list is Rashad McCants of the T-Wolves. He's currently recovering from major knee surgery so that could lower the cost of acquiring him. Minn. also has depth in the backcourt so there might not be as much of a role for him there now. McCants has good all around scoring ability and nice athleticism and quickness.

Just another name to throw out who could come cheap and pay off down the road.

1B4IGO
01-28-2007, 05:31 PM
Wow I forgot about McCants. I live down here in NC and my sons are huge Tarheel fans. Rashad has a great game and I remember watching a few T-Wolves games last year and Garnett really liked the kid and thought he had game. That would be a great additiion.

RchfldCavRaised
01-28-2007, 05:43 PM
I am a Tarheel bball fan to the teeth and I cant believe I forgot McCants. Talk about a guy who would have done himself some justice to stay in school for another year.

Flight not to get off subject, but what ever happened to my man Joe Forte?

But in response to McCants, he definitely has the build but I have always questioned his drive alas VC. Maybe he and Lebron can learn to take over games together with time.

Krolik1157
01-28-2007, 05:45 PM
As I mentioned in my game thread post, I'm not going to say anything about Larry for a month-I'm giving him one last chance to prove himself, as I do think he is a talented basketball player who can work well on this team. That being said, here is my "wish list" of people I'd rather have than Larry. They must have these characteristics:

1. Outside Shooting: LeBron (and someday Boobie) provide open looks. When teams bunch up, someone needs to knock the shots down.

2. Defense: We're winning despite the fact that we are DEEPLY flawed, and that's because of our defense. The person we bring in doesn't need to be a stopper, but they have to be able to play solid defense on the team's best perimeter scorer, since LeBron doesn't, as he needs to conserve his energy and isn't exactly a stopper anyways, although he's not terrible.

3. Offensive flowablity: He needs to be comfortable working without the ball, know when to keep the ball moving, and create looks for other players.

4. Attitude: He can't need to be the man, because he's not going to be.

Larry has all 4 of those things, in varying degrees, but he sorely lacks #5, which is:

5. Consistency: He has to stay healthy, and when healthy, provide 15-20 points (a reliable second option) and be able to shoot at a decent percentage, even if his outside shot isn't going down at first. (This is why I don't support getting a young, unproven guy: they're not consistent, and we need consistency some kind of badly right now. Also, they cost a lot more, talent-wise, than players with similar numbers past 24 or so-teams HATE giving up young guys.)

My "Wish List," in order: (All these players are from non-contending teams: we're not going to get any of them anyways, but I like my scenarios to have just a dash of reality, like "24".)
1. Joe Johnson (Great on 1, 5, and 3, decent on 2, questionable on 4)
2. Shane Battier (Great on 1, 2, 3, and 4, not there on 5)
3. Ray Allen (Great on 1 and 5, Decent on 3 and 4, yikes on 2)
4. Danny Granger (Solid on 1, 2, 4, not there on 3 or 5)

Those are all people I'd rather have than Hughes, and they're all semi-gettable, with the exception of Joe Johnson, but with the Hawks management anything can happen. Everyone else is either too young and unproven, plays for a contender, or has been labeled as an untouchable. (More common than you think: the 76ers gave Kyle Korver that label in the Iverson talks.) All other plans for us getting a consistent #2 would have to involve blackmail or a shady trade/frozen envelope that would allow us to end up with Oden/Durant.

Finally, do not insult the memory of Scottie Pippen by comparing Hughes to Pippen. They do some similar things, but this is Scottie Pippen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-XOCL9rMkk&eurl=

Good Afternoon.

Doctor K
01-28-2007, 05:46 PM
I remember McCants actually giving LBJ fits last year in the meeting at the Q.. I think it was our first home loss of the season...

CleveRocks
01-29-2007, 03:00 PM
Luther Head should make the list.

Nobody is taking Larry Hughes any where, playing like he is. either he plays better pretty soon or he is a cavs albatross for life.

imahustla
01-29-2007, 04:02 PM
Dude I wanted J.R. all along! I think that Finnan guy from the once Cleveland newspaper who answers questions on here tore into J.R. and called him lazy and unmotivated, and I thought that fool was on crack. J.R. had only 1% body fat when the summer ended and was in incredible shape. How anybody can call that lazy is beyond me. I was pissed when we didn't make a run at him.

Martell Webster...I'm in Portland right now and I gotta say, the locals are down on him here. He was a lottery pick at #6 overall in 2005. But...he came straight out of high school. He has an NBA-ready body and a sweet stroke, and has been compared to Glen Rice. He'd be a big two-guard who can hit the three, and he's athletic as hell. His stock is as low right now as it will get. Heck, it might go lower, but we'll see.

IMO Martell would be nice to roll the dice on. Portland has a history of drafting hyped high school players only to see them suck for them and then blow up into All-Star status elsewhere (Jermaine O'Neal, anyone?). They already gave up on Telfair. Now Webster might be next.

I'd give them Shannon Brown and Sasha for Martell in a freaking heartbeat.

imahustla
01-29-2007, 04:06 PM
We have to get rid of Hughes... he doesn't have a role on this team..

He's not a 2nd option, he can't shoot, he can't finish, he turns the ball over in crucial times, and he can't stay healthy..

Even if we have to take a talent hit in return, we have to do it..

My favorite line from Cavs fans: "We're stuck with Larry, we can't get equal value for him"

Sure we can, I bet the Lakers would straight up offer Aaron Mckie for him right now ??????
As long as that lesser talent is an expiring contract, I'd have done that trade yesterday. Hell, last month. Last year, maybe?

imahustla
01-29-2007, 04:07 PM
I wouldn't trade Larry for a guy who could leave after the season...
Even if it clears up cap room to go after a guy like Rashard Lewis in free agency? Even then?

TrueCavsFan23
01-29-2007, 04:31 PM
I really like Rasual Butler,he is a very solid scorer.James Jones is nice but seems way more one dimensional then butler.

1B4IGO
01-29-2007, 04:40 PM
Martell Webster would be my first choice. The kid does have a sweet stroke but he's now behind Roye and is going to find it hard to find playing time. I'd give them Shannon and Sasha and not bat an eye.

NarlCavs
01-29-2007, 05:49 PM
Webster would be nice but I can't see Portland willing to give up a high lottery pick so soon or at a reasonable price.
The Blazers are at the start of a major rebuilding process and I think Webster is a player they consider to be a big part of that process.

I tried to judge the players listed in the 1st post of this thread or any other possible young players on whether they might be available and what the cost to acquire them would be. If a player might not have as big a role with his current team but still has the talent and potental to develop and also wouldn't cost the Cavs a key player in a deal than those are the ones I'd pursue first.

imahustla
01-29-2007, 06:29 PM
Webster would be nice but I can't see Portland willing to give up a high lottery pick so soon or at a reasonable price.
The Blazers are at the start of a major rebuilding process and I think Webster is a player they consider to be a big part of that process.
Take it from this board's official Blazers insider. The insiders here were saying on the radio last month that the Blazers are very disappointed with Webster and his progress. They are thin on patience and think he should be farther along right now than where he is at. Plus, look at Nate McMillan's rotations and you'll see that The Dictionary's play time is going down and down and down.

I don't think that Webster's fault...it's just that Portland wants to make him one of their centerpiece players and he's not ready for that. Their expectations for him were sky high. In Cleveland, he wouldn't be counted on to be one of the premier players...just a third or fourth option that can stretch the floor and bust zones. Shannon and Sasha for Martell and I think I'd wet myself. Trust me, the kid is a hard worker and is finally going to get it, and it will be raining three's. Question is, will it be in Portland?

RchfldCavRaised
01-29-2007, 07:09 PM
Webster clearly has more upside than everyone on that list. And he fits the mold of a player who is unproven in a bad situation.

I remember hearing nothing but good things about his character on draft night and he clearly is out of McMillans rotation in portland.

I would do Sasha and Brown for Webster without thinking twice as well!

The George
01-29-2007, 07:30 PM
I would take Webster in a heartbeat....no ifs ands or buts


dont have a clue of a good deal to get him but i would love to have him on this team....problem being Mike Brown prolly wouldnt play him


good idea though Cavattitude

cavs_playa23
01-29-2007, 08:00 PM
I would take Webster in a heartbeat....no ifs ands or buts


dont have a clue of a good deal to get him but i would love to have him on this team....problem being Mike Brown prolly wouldnt play him


good idea though Cavattitude

I agree Webster has a lot up-side...

Also since this will get a lot of looks go to http://www.realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?t=6672

and tell the staff what you think? Go to http://www.psdcentral.net/forums/index.php?act=atkshop to see more!!

TyGuy
01-29-2007, 08:05 PM
I would think to get webster, you could offer them cap relief in the form of our expiring contracts and trade exception.

As far as Webster the player goes. I havent seen much of him but he strikes me as a guy who is better fit to play and guard small forwards. His stroke seems pretty nice, not a tremendous athlete but solid. Shasha and him actually seem quite similar.

NarlCavs
01-29-2007, 09:52 PM
CavalierAttitude, thanks for the info on Webster. I'd be surprised if the Blazers gave up on him so soon but I guess you never know.
I would love to get him here and S. Brown and Sasha for him would be fine.

I agree that Webster probably won't be a big time star but would fill a role very well here. He does need to develop his total game and I assume since he hasn't really done that yet that's the reason the Blazers are disappointed in him.

It would be smart for the Cavs to become more active this offseason and look to acquire a young talent like one that has been mentioned. They have to add players who can grow with LeBron over the long run. The current mix on the Cavs isn't ideal. They mostly have aging players on the downside and then young unproven players. There's little in between.

imahustla
01-30-2007, 01:25 PM
Portland traded down and passed up on possibly getting Chris Paul at #3 in '05 to get Webster and Jack. But I think they are willing to move on and just build around Brandon Roy and LeMarcus Aldridge, and if Webster is coming along slower than those two despite being in the league for a year longer, they might decide to move him for role players who can do the same things that he is supposed to do. Namely, that would be shooting the three consistently and stretching the opposing defenses.

I talked to one of my buddies up here who is a huge Blazer fan about Sasha/Shannon for Webster and he said he doesn't know jack about our two guys, so he wouldn't do it. I wonder if they even carry value around the league.

chiefwahoo
01-30-2007, 01:41 PM
I wonder if they even carry value around the league.

I think Sasha has minimal value because of his sick athleticism and nice outside shot. He is one guy whose trade value would probably skyrocket with some consistent minutes and a defined role on this team. Just not sure that will ever happen.

As far as Shannon goes, how could he possibly have any value? He hasn't done ANYTHING.

Doctor K
01-30-2007, 01:49 PM
He's got that Henry James value... Oh snap !

chiefwahoo
01-30-2007, 01:53 PM
He's got that Henry James value... Oh snap !

You didn't just diss my boy Henry, did you? He had value back in 90-91. Remember when he came in on that 10-day contract and dropped 30 on the Bulls? MJ literally went up to him during the game and asked, "Who are you?"

Ron Mexic
01-30-2007, 02:03 PM
Alright there, wet socks!!! You're next!

chiefwahoo
01-30-2007, 02:14 PM
Remember when he came in on that 10-day contract and dropped 30 on the Bulls?

OK, I was a little off, he only had 25 in that game against the Bulls:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/CHI19910105.html

And he also brought his six kids to a botched crack deal last September :thumbup: But I prefer to remember him when he was just a CBA player on a 10-day NBA contract :chuckles:

Doctor K
01-30-2007, 03:04 PM
Lari Ketner & Tony Dumas > Henry "roll 'em if you got 'em" James

chiefwahoo
01-30-2007, 03:12 PM
Lari Ketner & Tony Dumas > Henry "roll 'em if you got 'em" James

You forgot Jay Guidinger, Paul Mokeski, Jimmy Oliver, and Milos Babic.

NarlCavs
01-30-2007, 03:39 PM
Henry James became an instant contributer when he was brought in. I can't see that happening with this current Cavs team and coaching staff where they would give a player the opportunity to contribute right away, know how to use him and also have a system in place where that could happen.

The Cavs have had their share of stiffs over the years. I wouldn't include James on that list though.

RchfldCavRaised
01-30-2007, 05:13 PM
I just checked with the chairmen/members of the Cavs Stiffs Committee: Phil Hubbard, Trajan Langdon and tea sipping Jon Amaechi, and they said that Henry James "WAS WHO WE THOUGHT HE"D BE!"

Kypus
01-30-2007, 06:06 PM
You didn't just diss my boy Henry, did you? He had value back in 90-91. Remember when he came in on that 10-day contract and dropped 30 on the Bulls? MJ literally went up to him during the game and asked, "Who are you?"
That's just freaking awesome, right there. :lol:

NarlCavs
01-30-2007, 10:01 PM
Maybe the type of young swingman we've been talking about is already on the roster in Sasha Pavlovic.
He usually produces when he's given a complete chance and he's looked to in the offense. Sasha has always had the skills and natural ability but has lacked consistency.
Who knows if he is the answer we want? I hope he finally gets a complete and consistent chance to try to prove it once and for all. He also needs to have plays run for him.