• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

Indians Are No Longer 'Cool'

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
I have no problem with the state of the Indians. I refuse to feel sorry for a cheap ass owner and the excuse for an organization he has assembled over the years. The Browns and Cavs are a different story. They have owners & GMs that are willing to spend money and sacrifice a profit for the better of the time. In other words, they are there to WIN. I do not put this on Shariro though, he has no flexibility or leverage to do anything.

My advice, sell the fucking team Dolan. The fans are out there, you just found a way to piss us off.

"I have no problem with the state of the Indians" and then you rail against them. Did I misinterpret or what? I do agree with what you say though..
 
He, along with most of the people here, are part of the problem and not the solution.

I guess as Cavs fans, you're going to stop going to Cavs games because it's not "cool" anymore.

Oh wait, you'll say we have an owner who spends money and yadda yadda yadda. Get that BS out of here. A True Fan(TM) goes to see his team in September when they are out of it and 20 games under .500, as I did the night this article is written about.

For the record, we bought these tickets in August, before any of the promotions were announced for this game, not only that, but the only promotion we "used" was the fireworks. Didn't buy a $1 dog, didn't get in with my student ID, none of that.

So I'll see you at the ballpark with the True Fans(TM). Or, you could go slurp off of PIP and his Yankess and come crying back when we are good.
 
Going to the games won't make the team any better. It just means Dolan has more $$$ to pocket.
 
Well then going to the Cavs games won't make them any better either, yet everyone here will obviously still be flocking to the games even though they want the team to tank. Screw those people.
 
I can't believe you just compared those teams to the Hawks...we were about to win the World Series in 97, and we were in it in 95. The Hawks are not good enough to even sniff the Finals.

I agree with the rest but it doesn't change a damn thing. We still suck and will continue to suck until someone does something.

Yeah, I am going to bring up 1997. Outside of about the 1000 real Marlins fans and Cleveland, that World Series was considered one of the worst of the last 25 years. It was a World Series that came down to who would fuck up last. I think we know who did. That was also a World Series where the Tribe ran out a starting rotation of: Charles Nagy, Jaret Wright, Chad Ogea, and Orel Hershiser (washed up by that point). Now please- tell me that wasn't one of the shittiest rotations EVER for a World Series team. Tell me that Chad Ogea wouldn't have been one of the worst World Series MVPs in baseball history. That team got incredibly lucky- the only series they definitely won was the Yankees series, when Sandy handed Mo his ass on a platter. The Os series? The Os just as much flushed that ALCS down the toilet as the Tribe outplayed them. Lenny Webster's complete brainfart? One. Armando Benitez showing Jose Mesa how its' done, costing the Os two of the 4 games? Two. Robbie Alomar showing a tween LBJ how to loaf through a playoff series and act like you had just been 'spoiling' the fans before that? Three. The Os pissed that series away.

Yes, I remember that playoff run very well- it was fun to watch because up until the 9th of game 7, the Tribe was winning. But it wasn't great baseball, it was fluke after fluke after fluke. Again, fans fondly remember that year- which is bullshit, b/c up until the middle of August, that was also arguably the most disappointing regular season team of the 90s AND it was the team coming off of losing Albert Belle. That was a decidedly mediocre team that got to the playoffs b/c the Central at that time was putrid. It was a fluke run, much like the Rockies of 2007.

And '95? While that team was an offensive juggernaut, that team had no shot in shit against the Braves' rotation and fans knew it at the time. Greg Maddux, John Smoltz, Tom Glavine... those 3 looked like future HOFers even then. The Tribe's answer? 46 year old Dennis Martinez, 43 year old Orel Hershiser, Charles Nagy (I love Charles but he wasn't even as good as Jake Westbrook), Ken Hill (who the Cards dumped; he was having a bad year when the Tribe snagged him for what they thought was a pittance), and Chad Ogea. Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz dominated that lineup, and the Braves rolled to their only World Series victory of the 90s.

The Indians were a dominant top 3 team in baseball for 2 years: 1995 and 1996. Once Belle left, it ended. From there on out, they were the team that loafed through the regular season and made the playoffs b/c the Central was a disaster. Hart never assembled anything other than a passable starting rotation, and the Indians were an 88-91 win team after that. A paper tiger; a team that could stuff the stat sheet offensively but never was near having the pitching to do anything come playoff time. The lone exeption was 1999, when they got bounced in the Division Series. By the pitcher Hart failed to acquire, Pedro Martinez. While the team's ace and other young stud imploded, the guys Hart wouldn't trade to get Pedro (Bartolo Colon, Jaret Wright). And yet Grover was the one shown the door.

And what gets my craw is that Cleveland fan knew this stuff back then. This isn't revisionist history, I remember people saying all this stuff back then. But now? All people remember is that the offensive guys left, and the team didn't win after that. The same fans who dread the Cavs going onto the Treadmill of Mediocrity' happily recall the Tribe teams that were just good enough to make the playoffs but would get owned once they faced the better rotations. I fondly remember those years and it was great to grow up during that time- but let's not, in our nostalgia for the past, mythologize those teams into something they weren't. And that was a true perennial title contender.
 
The Indians started horrible in 2008 even healthy, IIRC.

April - Sizemore injured elbow, an injury that would affect him all season
Martinez injured on opening day
Jake Westbrook went on DL

May - Westbrook returned
Fausto Carmona went on the DL
Travis Hafner went on the DL

June - Martinez goes on the DL after unsuccessfully trying to play through the elbow
injury that he suffered on opening day
Jake Westbrook went on the DL after Tommy John Surgery


They were never healthy.
 
I have no problem with the state of the Indians. I refuse to feel sorry for a cheap ass owner and the excuse for an organization he has assembled over the years. The Browns and Cavs are a different story. They have owners & GMs that are willing to spend money and sacrifice a profit for the better of the time. In other words, they are there to WIN. I do not put this on Shariro though, he has no flexibility or leverage to do anything.

My advice, sell the fucking team Dolan. The fans are out there, you just found a way to piss us off.

What's better, spending money poorly and losing every year or spending money wisely and winning in windows every couple of years? It amazes me how much Lerner gets a pass in this city...he has been an absolutely terrible owner.
 
Yeah, I am going to bring up 1997. Outside of about the 1000 real Marlins fans and Cleveland, that World Series was considered one of the worst of the last 25 years. It was a World Series that came down to who would fuck up last. I think we know who did. That was also a World Series where the Tribe ran out a starting rotation of: Charles Nagy, Jaret Wright, Chad Ogea, and Orel Hershiser (washed up by that point). Now please- tell me that wasn't one of the shittiest rotations EVER for a World Series team. Tell me that Chad Ogea wouldn't have been one of the worst World Series MVPs in baseball history. That team got incredibly lucky- the only series they definitely won was the Yankees series, when Sandy handed Mo his ass on a platter. The Os series? The Os just as much flushed that ALCS down the toilet as the Tribe outplayed them. Lenny Webster's complete brainfart? One. Armando Benitez showing Jose Mesa how its' done, costing the Os two of the 4 games? Two. Robbie Alomar showing a tween LBJ how to loaf through a playoff series and act like you had just been 'spoiling' the fans before that? Three. The Os pissed that series away.

Yes, I remember that playoff run very well- it was fun to watch because up until the 9th of game 7, the Tribe was winning. But it wasn't great baseball, it was fluke after fluke after fluke. Again, fans fondly remember that year- which is bullshit, b/c up until the middle of August, that was also arguably the most disappointing regular season team of the 90s AND it was the team coming off of losing Albert Belle. That was a decidedly mediocre team that got to the playoffs b/c the Central at that time was putrid. It was a fluke run, much like the Rockies of 2007.

And '95? While that team was an offensive juggernaut, that team had no shot in shit against the Braves' rotation and fans knew it at the time. Greg Maddux, John Smoltz, Tom Glavine... those 3 looked like future HOFers even then. The Tribe's answer? 46 year old Dennis Martinez, 43 year old Orel Hershiser, Charles Nagy (I love Charles but he wasn't even as good as Jake Westbrook), Ken Hill (who the Cards dumped; he was having a bad year when the Tribe snagged him for what they thought was a pittance), and Chad Ogea. Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz dominated that lineup, and the Braves rolled to their only World Series victory of the 90s.

The Indians were a dominant top 3 team in baseball for 2 years: 1995 and 1996. Once Belle left, it ended. From there on out, they were the team that loafed through the regular season and made the playoffs b/c the Central was a disaster. Hart never assembled anything other than a passable starting rotation, and the Indians were an 88-91 win team after that. A paper tiger; a team that could stuff the stat sheet offensively but never was near having the pitching to do anything come playoff time. The lone exeption was 1999, when they got bounced in the Division Series. By the pitcher Hart failed to acquire, Pedro Martinez. While the team's ace and other young stud imploded, the guys Hart wouldn't trade to get Pedro (Bartolo Colon, Jaret Wright). And yet Grover was the one shown the door.

And what gets my craw is that Cleveland fan knew this stuff back then. This isn't revisionist history, I remember people saying all this stuff back then. But now? All people remember is that the offensive guys left, and the team didn't win after that. The same fans who dread the Cavs going onto the Treadmill of Mediocrity' happily recall the Tribe teams that were just good enough to make the playoffs but would get owned once they faced the better rotations. I fondly remember those years and it was great to grow up during that time- but let's not, in our nostalgia for the past, mythologize those teams into something they weren't. And that was a true perennial title contender.

I stopped reading after you said the Indians had no chance of beating the Braves in 1995. The Indians lost in six games, and five of those games were decided by one run. It was good pitching/great offense vs. great pitching/good offense, and it was a hell of a matchup.

Just another example of people not giving credit to the Indians' success.
 
What's better, spending money poorly and losing every year or spending money wisely and winning in windows every couple of years? It amazes me how much Lerner gets a pass in this city...he has been an absolutely terrible owner.


Well define "winning in windows every couple of years" because I am not sure I understand what that means. The Indians have been to the playoffs twice in the last ten years. But, unlike the Browns, the Indians have had some of the best talent in the game.

By no means do I hold grudges against the team, the stadium, and the fans. I just hate the owner. He wants people to feel sorry for him. I don't at all. He is not fit for the position. Where does all the money go that he gets from revenue sharing? I don't get that.

Now the Browns have only been to the playoffs once in ten years, I get that. But we have an owner - albiet he's not the smartest and most strategic man - that is willing to do what ever it takes to get our city a winning team. Same with Dan Gilbert too. Now granted our aggressive ownership has hurt us at times, but at least they're trying to make it happen and not trying to create a pitty party for themselves.
 
Well define "winning in windows every couple of years" because I am not sure I understand what that means. The Indians have been to the playoffs twice in the last ten years. But, unlike the Browns, the Indians have had some of the best talent in the game.

By no means do I hold grudges against the team, the stadium, and the fans. I just hate the owner. He wants people to feel sorry for him. I don't at all. He is not fit for the position. Where does all the money go that he gets from revenue sharing? I don't get that.

Now the Browns have only been to the playoffs once in ten years, I get that. But we have an owner - albiet he's not the smartest and most strategic man - that is willing to do what ever it takes to get our city a winning team. Same with Dan Gilbert too. Now granted our aggressive ownership has hurt us at times, but at least they're trying to make it happen and not trying to create a pitty party for themselves.

1) They were good in 2005, good in 2007, and would have been good in 2008 had it not been for injuries.

2) When have the Dolans tried to create a "pity" party?

3) Aggressive isn't always smart. Under the current MLB setup the Indians have to patiently rebuild from within to win. Otherwise, you'll have the Baltimore Orioles II. Ironically, the Cavaliers are in the same spot right now.

4) The bottom line to me is winning. I don't care about an owner being aggressive, or how badly an owner wants to win. I also don't care how much he spends. I care about the plan he puts in place, and the results on the field that come from that plan. The Indians have produced far better results on the field than the Cleveland Browns...and although most Cleveland fans are blind to it, he's a much better owner than Randy Lerner, and the Indians are a much better franchise than the Browns.
 
April - Sizemore injured elbow, an injury that would affect him all season
Martinez injured on opening day
Jake Westbrook went on DL

May - Westbrook returned
Fausto Carmona went on the DL
Travis Hafner went on the DL

June - Martinez goes on the DL after unsuccessfully trying to play through the elbow
injury that he suffered on opening day
Jake Westbrook went on the DL after Tommy John Surgery


They were never healthy.

Losing 1 or even 2 players should not make your team suddenly go into the dredges. The Indians were a bad team right out of the gates. Started 2-1 and it was all downhill from there. I think they went above .500 one more time that entire season.

CC was terrible for us to start that year too, he wasn't hurt.
 
Losing 1 or even 2 players should not make your team suddenly go into the dredges. The Indians were a bad team right out of the gates. Started 2-1 and it was all downhill from there. I think they went above .500 one more time that entire season.

CC was terrible for us to start that year too, he wasn't hurt.

You also have to factor in not having Sabathia, Blake, and Byrd for the 2nd half...and they still went .500.

Losing your:

- Leadoff hitter and catalyst
- Best hitter and starting catcher
- #2 starter
- #3 starter
- Top setup reliever

...will kill you. I'm not sure how you can say injuries to key players can ruin a team's season when we have an example right in front of us - the 2010 Red Sox.
 
By the way, while predictions are just statistically backed guesses, Peter Gammons, Buster Olney, Rob Neyer, and Keith Law - all very knowledge baseball analysts - picked the Indians to make the World Series in 2008. They were expected to be very good, and major injury problems killed it all.
 
You guys can argue the past to your hearts desire, but it doesn't mean shit. Talking about the past is great, but all I'm reading is excuses for this team right now. 2007-choked, 2008-hit by injuries, purge of talent starts, 2009-injuries, continuation of purge, 2010- same thing as 09. The fact of the matter is this team is so fucking bad, that it hurts. How many of these players would start for another team? I guess Assdribble might, and that's it.

This team has no talent right now, and that's why fans won't come to games. It's that simple. Yeah, you talk about our minor league system (if your an average or less baseball fan then you have no idea who's in our minors or couldn't care less) , but that's years away from now. 2012 is when some prospects will be up, but that doesn't mean they'll have an immediate impact. It will probably take a year or 2 to get acclimated to MLB pitching. Matter of fact, our drafting has been horrible until 2008. You simple cannot do that if you have a owner that won't spend the big bucks to keep players. That has to be on Shapiro and his staff, considering he hired them.

If Dolan won't sign players in FA, then that money has to go to the draft. Obviously he did this for this past draft, which is great. He needs to do this all the time for the draft (maybe not spend a record breaking amount but he needs to sign the high end talent). So I put blame on Dolan for being cheap and Shapiro for having his head up his ass regarding the draft and not making changes sooner. Yeah, I could put injuries in that list, but c'mon guys.. injuries happen to every team.
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-13: "Backup Bash Brothers"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:11: "Clipping Bucks."
Top