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gun control

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There are no easy solutions to stopping violence. Most people think "if we do X, then we can stop or reduce Y", forgetting the letters A-W also have effects on any situation. If we stopped the war on drugs, gun violence would go down because there wouldn't be incentive to deal now illegal drugs. No one on the news is mentioning that today. I know that is different from a mentally unstable person getting guns and killing kids.

One problem I see is many public and government buildings, it is illegal to carry firearms, or even have in your car on property. If a teacher and a janitor had conceal permits and were carrying, there is a chance that less than 20 some odd people would have died today.

Someone who has a mental illness that is not being correctly treated could just as well run people down in a car, drown her kids in a lake, or stab random strangers. Guns do have a rapid multiplier compared to those other options.
 
Just so we're clear, you're arguing for a complete firearm ban?

I'm not necessarily tied to one ideal on the matter, as I said I'm cognizant of the fact that whatever steps that are taken will inevitably have to be accepted in incremental steps until a goal is achieved. Likewise, what I would prefer and what I find realistic are probably two different things entirely.

You're conflating two different ideas. That Americans are probably more homicidal, by nature (I think this is actually true), and that America cannot prevent the proliferation of guns. There are many reasons for both issues and they are somewhat interconnected, but I don't think anyone is saying that because our society is more violent that we cannot ban guns.

At this point, I don't believe our society is more homicidal by nature. While Japan and to some extent, the UK, have more peaceful societies that in my opinion is a CHOICE made by our citizens. It's indoctrinated into our society but not necessarily our human nature.

Because you don't see value in something doesn't mean it has no value. I own an AR-15, and two handguns. I see value in each. They serve a purpose. You know what my reasons are, you're not stupid, yet you simply discount my values. I feel a need to protect my home, my family, and my freedom from anyone who might attempt to threaten those things I hold most dear. Why is it that I must sacrifice my freedom to protect myself and my loved ones for your sense of false security?

It isn't a sense of false security, it's security in the same manner you would feel if you didn't have to worry about armed insurgents entering your residence.

I think there are two different sets of values when talking about gun owners, tradition and protection. I'm not blind to those values, but when you're working toward a bigger goal of safety for all citizens of this country. Where I agree with you wholeheartedly is in the thought that our cultural diversity makes this goal all the more difficult. There is a clear race problem in this country, cultural biases which trump any other nations. Whether we first need to eliminate our own bias before we eliminate the need for our citizens to be armed is certainly up for debate, but both must be done away with before our society can work towards a goal of decreasing violence.

And in such a future, you envision streets that aren't filled with criminals? I'll tell you something Boobie.. Only way that happens, is if politicians and bankers stop raping the middle/working class people in this country and squeezing us for all we're worth. Maybe if there was some socioeconomic justice and a fair shake in America, especially in the inner city, then there would be less incidence of violent or gang related crime.

On this, we agree. But in a perfect world we're giving that job to well armed, well funded and larger police departments.
 
I really dont see the difference between a cop having a gun and a US citizen who is not a cop having a gun. Police states are prone to corruption im not sure of the purpose of creating a situation where americans are subject to potentially more abuse of power than what they already are.
 
My issue with gun control and any government restrictions on our rights, is when is enough. Americans fought for their right to be free. Freedom is not free, there is hardship in being free. If you want to live in a state where you are 100% safe, then go to go a country where you have no personal freedoms.
 
God damn gouri!!!! Coming into this thread knocking shit out.
 
American gun attitudes seem to stem from a widely held belief that Americas freedoms stem not from a level of cultural enlightenment but from a belief that they have taken their freedom from an oppressor by force, while you could argue this is historically true it appears to have grown into a general thought that if america isnt amed then it governemnt will become a dictatorship. You can't control gun ownership in america, its too ingrained in the culture, now when it comes to all the loop holes, teflon rounds and automatic weapons then thats where legislation can make a difference.
 
American gun attitudes seem to stem from a widely held belief that Americas freedoms stem not from a level of cultural enlightenment but from a belief that they have taken their freedom from an oppressor by force, while you could argue this is historically true it appears to have grown into a general thought that if america isnt amed then it governemnt will become a dictatorship. You can't control gun ownership in america, its too ingrained in the culture, now when it comes to all the loop holes, teflon rounds and automatic weapons then thats where legislation can make a difference.

Pretty well said...Sawduzt, you live in the UK, right? Say you're walking down the street and some guy comes up to you with a gun and tries to kill you.....wait, criminals CAN get guns in the UK? OK, lets pretend the guy had a knife, even......would you NOT want the ability to protect yourself with a handgun? Would you NOT want to opportunity to defend yourself against someone trying to kill you? In my mind, that's exactly how it boils down to. Nothing else.
 
Pretty well said...Sawduzt, you live in the UK, right? Say you're walking down the street and some guy comes up to you with a gun and tries to kill you.....wait, criminals CAN get guns in the UK? OK, lets pretend the guy had a knife, even......would you NOT want the ability to protect yourself with a handgun? Would you NOT want to opportunity to defend yourself against someone trying to kill you? In my mind, that's exactly how it boils down to. Nothing else.

Yes, they can get access.

How often does it happen? Rarely.

Take note, America.
 
Yes, they can get access.

How often does it happen? Rarely.

Take note, America.

Hey, you want to play a game of chance now a day? Go ahead. I'll still protect your unarmed ass if we're in the same vicinity ;)
 
Pretty well said...Sawduzt, you live in the UK, right? Say you're walking down the street and some guy comes up to you with a gun and tries to kill you.....wait, criminals CAN get guns in the UK? OK, lets pretend the guy had a knife, even......would you NOT want the ability to protect yourself with a handgun? Would you NOT want to opportunity to defend yourself against someone trying to kill you? In my mind, that's exactly how it boils down to. Nothing else.

58 Murders a Year by Firearms in Britain, 8,775 in US.
 
Hey, you want to play a game of chance now a day? Go ahead. I'll still protect your unarmed ass if we're in the same vicinity ;)

Guns are for pussies.

I've lived in the South Bronx and Los Angeles the last three years, without a gun.

If I was robbed, I still wouldn't carry one.

Guns escalate, they don't prevent. And in the UK, where the vast majority of their citizens don't need guns as a means of protection because they're illegal, don't live their lives in fear of such events.

When I think of these mass murder tragedies, I can no longer describe them as "unthinkable"

Unthinkable is having a sense of security similar to what those in the UK or Japan have because they don't live in fear of being blown away.
 
Guns are for pussies....ahhh yes. Now I understand what I'm dealing with here. We're just on 2 different wave lengths.
 
Pretty well said...Sawduzt, you live in the UK, right? Say you're walking down the street and some guy comes up to you with a gun and tries to kill you.....wait, criminals CAN get guns in the UK? OK, lets pretend the guy had a knife, even......would you NOT want the ability to protect yourself with a handgun? Would you NOT want to opportunity to defend yourself against someone trying to kill you? In my mind, that's exactly how it boils down to. Nothing else.

Stranger vs stranger violence is really not as prevalent as people think, in my opinion. there was a spree of gun related crimes in 2002, Nottingham had a string of jewell robberies and a couple of gang related incidents. Really in the UK it is knife crime that is the issue, mainly with teen gangs in cities. If a stranger comes up to me with a gun and wants to kill me then i am going to die most likely, but i'll take my chances that way. I think oveall it makes for a safer environment than the personal equivalent of mutually-assured destruction. if i have to draw a gun to protect myself its a lose lose situation, if i survive i have to live with the impact the incident will have on my mental health.

I always go back to that idea of escalation, once you have guns, you need, guns to protect yourself, so better buy a big gun, just to be sure and some armour piercing rounds just in case, then a teen breaks in and i panic because i have no training or experience apart from a shooting range. Lets face it i'm no bauer and it all ends badly.

So i gues i'm glad i live in a small town in the UK by the sea that doesn't have these issues
 

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