• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

The Kyrie and Dion chemistry conundrum

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
If you tried to count the number of times LeBron rolled his eyes at Drew Gooden you would run out of numbers, changing our understanding of mathematics as a human race. Kyrie is going to mature as a leader, I hope. He is still a little petulant. Watching that clip of Kyrie talking to Kobe last summer reminded me how young Kyrie is mentally.

Well, at least he hits big shots and understands the game like a grown man. The other stuff will come.
 
Dion has no choice but to develop chemistry with Kyrie if he wants to stick around. If he doesn't, he might be stuck to the sixth man role for the rest of his time here. And honestly, I'd hate to have taken a guy 4th overall to be the sixth man. So rather than that, I'd prefer just packaging him in a deal to grab another lottery pick and draft Mclemore and a big guy.

You don't trade Dion yet, but not sure what value he would really have. Doubt you would get a very high lottery pick for him, tbh.
 
Last edited:
Dion has no choice but to develop chemistry with Kyrie if he wants to stick around. If he doesn't, he might be stuck to the sixth man role for the rest of his time here. And honestly, I'd hate to have taken a guy 4th overall to be the sixth man. So rather than that, I'd prefer just packaging him in a deal to grab another lottery pick and draft Mclemore and a big guy.

I started this with the intention to not bring transactions into it. Purely from a basketball in-game mentality/coaching kind of discussion.

What would you do, with no trade or FA ability, with the roster as is to help these two play better together?
 
Last edited:
Thank you for pointing this out. I got chewed out a week or two ago when I suggested Kyrie should not be going three on one to win the game. I said that I rather have Waiters miss five game winning shots if it meant that Kyrie and him were learning to play together so that defenses had to respect the outlet pass. Someone mentioned that when Waiters can hit the shot that Kyrene has the pass ready. Yet, it is chemistry that they need to develop, they willingness to give it up and know the other will give it back if they don't have a shot. It will happen, it just takes time and willingness to lose a game or two this season, knowing next year will start our steak of playoff apperances. Monumental wins against Toronto or Milwaukee doesn't mean a thing if Kyrie and/or Waiters are doing it one against five as it won't work against OKC.
 
I agree with this. Andy made the game easier for everyone. His game IQ was the highest on the team. Even higher than Luke I think.

I dont see Kyrie trusting anyone like he did Andy, but just as concerning is how he checks out when he sees Dion is about to attack and vice versa.

And Tyler has about no trust from Kyrie anymore. He rolls his eyes at him just about everytime down just like he was doing Tristan before Andy went down.

Id like to see him be more of a "building" leader type player. He wont ever be Sam Cassell leader type, but he needs to mature as a teammate some.

No one trusts Tyler, he's even lost all confidence in himself. I commented on this yesterday, but it seems like even catching the ball cleanly is hard for him these days.

Regarding the lack of chemistry between the two, I think a lot of it has to do with the awful offensive set (singular on purpose) that we run. I'd love to have them run off screens for each other, since both can be pretty effective on the mid range catch and shoot, or use that to penetrate. That's definitely not happening in this offense though.

And I'd love to plant one of them on the nearside corner for a catch and shoot corner 3 whenever the other penetrates. Could be a source of easy points and it would help with spacing in general, since it seems like when Kyrie/Dion drive off the high pick and roll, the other is usually just waiting on the opposite wing beyond the three point line while Gee is in position for a corner 3. His man of course is practically in the paint since everyone is begging for Gee to shoot that wide open 3.

I'm sure posters with more X's and O's knowledge on basketball can expound more on what I'm talking about, but based on the set we run it doesn't seem like there's much of a chance for chemistry beyond "here, your turn to break down your man and attack the D."
 
If they are already going head to head, then I think the stakes need to be raised, somehow. Even when they are playing winning and engaged unlike last night, I see them taking turns initiating and attacking and the off ball guard is never involved or invested in the play when the other has it.

I dont put that on Byron.

I do put it on Scott. It's his job to teach players how to work within his offense. Thus far, he hasn't done that. The fact that we've seen almost no improvement in the offensive flow tells me that, whatever he's doing, it's not working at all.
 
I think from a coaching point our offense is not exactly helping. We currently run "101 ball screens" offense, very similar to LeIso in many ways. This means by definition one of them is standing around and watching the other run a ball screen. I'm not blaming scott as i feel he needs another offseason, but i expect some more cutting and moving next year and TT to play at the high post. Early in the season they ran waiters off some down screensand i can see that being a good part of his game, hell he always fades anyway so might as well shoot on the move. Same with Kyrie get him off a down screen witha defender closing out on the right wind, the pin/fade screen waiters with TT, drive skip,dish or finish. Or anything that gets the ball between them on either wings forcing the defense to close out on both of them in one attack. I think they have a chance if they can grow together to be very similar to manu and parker, just kyrie has so much more range than parker.
 
This thread feels about 18 months premature. Chemistry issues have been around since James Naismith had to drag a ladder on the court to pull the ball out of the basket. Finding an equilibrium is what basketball is all about.

There isn't a team in the league that does not have these issues. Even the team with the brightest future is trying to figure out how to get Westbrook and KD to play better together. Just check out an OKC board on a night Westbrook jacks up 30 shots.

I get the chemistry question. But it's way too early to even begin answering it. These guys haven't event played half a season together. Both are trying to establish themselves as individual players in the league. Dion is still trying to figure out basic sets. My point is this: Let's let these guys figure out who they are as pros before we start to worry about how they are molded into a complementary duo.
 
My problem with Kyrie and Dion just passing it back and forth around the perimeter before one penetrates off the pick and roll is this: We usually start with a couple of lazy passes around the perimeter which the defense has no problem adjusting to, before one will penetrate. Seems like no matter what, he's gotta beat his man, the big, and the other big loading up the strong side of the paint while either Kyrie/Dion is stuck out on the opposite wing. I'd love to implement something where they can catch the ball with a free lane to the basket instead of always taking their man off the dribble, but that doesn't exist in our playbook.

[video=youtube;0UbEWy7SdZc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UbEWy7SdZc[/video]
 
A really awesome post, Rch. Mind if I break it down a little?

I think Kyrie and Dion should play against each other every day in practice. Man to man and then they will learn to play better with each other in games whether Dion is the first guy off the bench, or beside Kyrie in the backcourt. This starting together right now, where they are in each of their individual development, is square peg in round hole to me. I think they dont have a healthy enough respect for each other's game right now. Which I can understand a little. Their skill set is pretty redundant and their limitations match pretty well, with Kyrie just being overall better at all of the offensive skills than Dion. I dont think Dion has the personality to just concede that, irregardless of the accolades and acclaim Kyrie is starting to get.

Completely agree. But Max already confirmed the problem, right? Kyrie doesn't like being away from the spotlight, and even though Dion doesn't mind sharing, he doesn't back down from anybody. They're both alpha males. If we wanna win, gotta get the Iverson/Anthony syndrome outta them and try to either mold it into team dynamics (equal), a leader/second banana, or move on after the experiment didn't work... I wonder how much of a chance we'll give this? I'm somewhat worried about it too.

Putting them against each other every day in practice will inspire both to engage on D, and really start putting the effort in on that end. It is a pride thing.

(Rch's Background)

I say all that because right now, I see two guards who arent working together. I dont want our backcourt to be considered finished because I dont ever think it would be making best use of either of these two guys skill sets, however, if they are going to play beside each other ALOT, I think they could be doing more to put each other in better position to play better and attack better knowing each others strengths. And I dont see that right now.

That would be ideal. They got to move past their own egos first though. That reminds me...

Max, where are Kyrie and Dion at in the development in their chemistry? Anything looking good now? Would be nice to hear.

Im spoiled because Delonte had such a high bball IQ, and it showed in the unsung way he made Mo Williams better. However, Dion doesnt have the long arms, ability to post, or the IQ that Delonte had, so Im trying to temper my expectations for how I want to see him play off Kyrie. Kyrie doesnt give effort alot and I see some REALLY bad habits creeping into his game in regard to how he communicates with teammates.

Delonte unfortunately was quite unstable, but I agree. But he had slightly shorter arms, did he? His wing span was 6 foot 6 while Dion is 6 foot 8. The reason Delonte seems longer is because of his defensive energy. You just can't help but notice how he utilizes his arms better on defense. As for Kyrie, I think it would be easier if there were more outstanding guys to play with consistently. It probably helps if the teammates were more competent too...

I think the best thing for both of them would be Dion going to bench, being the first guard off in games, and being put at the head of a strong veteran 2nd unit when they scrimmage (Dion, Livingston, Ellington, Walton/KJ, Speights) and tell him to not hold back and go after Kyrie. Kyrie will learn a healthier respect for Dion's game and will learn how to incorporate it better when they are sharing the court, and Dion will get his ass busted just as much by Kyrie and will learn to play better D, learn to play D within a team structure with the help from his veteran teammates, and will learn to incorporate Kyries game into his by getting a taste of his strengths first hand.

One of the plays that Kyrie got frustrated at, was when he released the Detroit ball handler to Dion right in front of the Cavs bench out on the perimeter in the first half, and Dion just watched the guy go around him to the baseline and throw up a oop, without so much as engaging him. From the language on Dions body, it looked like Dion felt Kyrie could have stayed with his man and he didnt trust that Kyrie really needed him to switch in that case. That kind of thing between backcourt mates is indicative of a lack of trust and a lack of knowing your teammates ability.

If they are already going head to head, then I think the stakes need to be raised, somehow. Even when they are playing winning and engaged unlike last night, I see them taking turns initiating and attacking and the off ball guard is never involved or invested in the play when the other has it.

I dont put that on Byron.

Great observation. They have to figure that out. They're both young, so they need to learn. They can't go through similar mistakes that Monta and Brandon have gone through or our team may miss the championship window. Hopefully, we can get some insight on what their chemistry is looking like currently. It does make me excited for the future.
 
Part of running a team is making sure everyone knows where they're supposed to be and what they're supposed to be doing - serving as the Coach on the floor. You don't ignore your bigs because they're in the wrong spot ... you get them in the right spot, and you reward them when they get it right.

Kyrie is reportedly calling some of his own plays which can be a good step along the path (if he's being insightful about it), but he just has a long way to go.

I didn't really intend for the Kyrie thread to turn in to an indictment of him, but more of an indictment of the "scoring PG" as I don't feel that Kyrie has to turn out to be just a scorer ... but it takes time, and guiding Kyrie and Dion to where we eventually want them to be is the key.
 
I started this with the intention to not bring transactions into it. Purely from a basketball in-game mentality/coaching kind of discussion.

What would you do, with no trade or FA ability, with the roster as is to help these two play better together?

If they can't be traded, I would keep CJ and Casspi glued to the bench. I think that would help balance both KI and DW mindsets, where they don't feel they're losing shots to an inferior player (more pointedly at CJ). Not that most of the roster doesn't share that same trait, but CJ/Casspi seem to be the most "confident" and willing to jack up whatever and whenever. Seems to take much of any type of flow the offense has completely out. Gee borders that fine line, but he (barely) survives due to his defense and lack of alternative options.

I'd change some of the rotations as well:

Start: Irving, Waiters, Gee, Thompson, Zeller
1Q, 6min: Irving, Livingston, Gee, Speights, Thompson
2Q start: Waiters, Livingston, Ellington, Walton, Speights
2Q, 6min: Irving, Waiters, Ellington, Thompson, Zeller

Kind of generic (like not accounting for game situations and it's not meant as a minute by minute sub pattern), and I'm sure the metric-nazi's can look deeper. But some sort of rotation like that could give each KI and DW some time together, as well as some time apart, for them to do some work.
 
Irving and Dion? How about the whole team having chemistry problems together. Not surprising either. Takes years of developing skills and playing together to know what you can do for 20-23 year olds.
 
Right now Kyrie and Dion have zero chemistry. Not at all ready to give up and say it won't come but at the same time we also can't say that it will definitely come.
As long as Kyrie is here he is going to be the #1 G. Dion needs to accept this. Scott also needs to make offensive adjustments during the rest of the season. The lack of ball and player movement and constant devolving into 1 on 1 play needs to lessen. This isn't helping development nor improving chemistry. We rarely see Kyrie and Dion look to each other or set up one another within the offense. Cavs offense is almost all 1 on 1 now. Defensive issues appear to be more due to laziness and lack of effort.
Things also could very well improve with more smart experienced players on the roster rather than so many marginal or inexperienced players. I'm not advocating blowing cap space and flexibility just to add vets but this can be done within reason and with not doing much harm to flexibility. Having the right quality veteran presence will help development.
There is plenty of time and Cavs can afford patience but they also need to get the bad habits out before they might become ingrained.
 
If it's all right with you Rchfld, I'm going to use your high school team photo as my new avatar. I know ballers when I see them..
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-12: "Max Strus Juice"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:11: "Clipping Bucks."
Top