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Dion Waiters Traded

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Grade the Trade (Waiters + Kirk/Amundsen + 2nd rd pick for Smith, Shumpert, and 1st rd pick)

  • A+

    Votes: 18 7.1%
  • A

    Votes: 68 26.7%
  • B

    Votes: 106 41.6%
  • C

    Votes: 44 17.3%
  • D

    Votes: 10 3.9%
  • F

    Votes: 9 3.5%

  • Total voters
    255
  • Poll closed .
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Dion is a talented guard, but some of y'all are overhyping him a bit. He's an inconsistent overall shooter and that's the truth. Can and will he get better this season? Absolutely! Should he take a lot of open shots within the flow of the offense? Absolutely! Does he sometimes take a few quick open shots when he'd be better off moving the ball? He does.

I have no problems with him taking a lot of shots if the ball keeps coming back to him after everyone else touches it, but he still has some bad habits that he'll have to get rid of and to be fair, he's not the only one.

Curious, Bandwagoner, how much of Dion have you seen the past 2 years or are you just basing this off of the few games you have seen him play in a brand new system with brand new players? Does Dion have his warts? Yes. No one who supports him is going to say he is a flawless player, but too often the "he's an inconsistent shooter", "he's a chucker", "he has low basktball IQ" pops up from people who have not watched our team the past few years with Dion on it. As said many times before in this thread, he is a very good spot up shooter, better than a lot of big name 3 point shooters in the league, and shoots 39.8% with his jumpers, which is a pretty good number considering much more hyped shooters like Bradley Beal (I bring him up a lot, I know) shot 38.6% on his jumpers, and even Kyrie who shot 38.3% on his jumpers last year, albeit in what I believe to be a fluke year for him shooting. For a reference as to where Dion's 40% on jumpers stands amongst his peers, Klay Thompson, probably the best of the young SGs in the league IMO, shot 41.1% on his jumpers last year, and he was assisted on 76.7% of those jumpers compared to Dion on 53.6%. With more talent and more ball movement in our system, I'd expect Dion's assisted % to go up pretty significantly this year, and we already know how good of a spot up shooter he is, so I can expect that % for his jumper to go up as well.

As for this preseason, I can't tell you how many times I've seen Dion swing the ball, and the ball comes back to him for an open 3, which I have no problem with a 37% shooter from 3 taking. Maybe once or twice a game he does his two dribble pull up from just inside the 3 point line, which even I hate, but the rest of his 10+ shots are all in the flow of the offense. Kyrie breaks plays off to ISO, LeBron breaks plays off to ISO, but heaven forbid if Dion breaks a play off to ISO for himself, he isn't a fit! Everything this guy does is critiqued under a microscope, it really is amusing. LeBron was right when he said most of the blame would be coming Dion's way when things don't look right. This thread proves his point.
 
I don't think dion should break plays to ISO when there is kevin love posted up on the left block.

I would take a right handed jump hook from kevin love( I don't think he has ever missed that shot) over a Dion step back jumper from deep; particularly when love hadn't been getting many touches or quality looks all game.

I have no problem with dion taking open looks in rhythm or even going ISO when the shot clock is running down, but I do want him to eliminate these low quality shots when there are better shots to be had.
 
Since I spend way too much time in this thread, and get baited into replying to too many posts, and in order to not come off as if I am Dion or one of his family members, I will begin my week long hiatus from this thread with this post.

Dion still has plenty of issues that I personally see. He still falls asleep off the ball on defense, he still stands a bit too much on offense 5-7 feet away from the 3 point line with his hands up instead of working his way open towards the basket, he still takes too many of what I consider to be the worst shot in basketball, the mid range jumper 1-2 feet inside the 3 point line, his shot mechanics revert back to his old lean when he gets tired, he forces too many drives into traffic when his jumper isn't falling which results in him getting stripped or blocked or causes him to miss a wild layup attempt, he still struggles to finish close in traffic, he complains too much to the refs, AYEEEE!!!, AND ONE!, and he gets into his own head every once in a while.

But I also understand that this is a guy who is now on his 3rd coaching staff in 3 years, has had the amazing wing veteran leadership of Alonzo Gee, Omri Casspi, and Jarrett Jack to teach him how to play the game (yikes), has been coached by one guy who stopped caring about the team his final year and one who might be the worst offensive mind in the game today, and has been dicked around in the rotation ever since he has been in the league. I am willing to wait and see how he responds now that he is surrounded by vets who play the right way and have the clout to break some of his bad habits, to see how he plays under a coach who actually is creative and can build an offense to fit his teams strengths, to see how the likes of Marion and LeBron can turn him into an even better defender, or how Mike Miller and James Jones can improve his off the ball play while on the court with LeBron. This is still a 22 year old kid who hasn't exactly been in the best situation for him since he's been in the league (same goes for Kyrie and Tristan, who we are already seeing the benefits of having LeBron around).

Dion has flaws, sure, but the lazy analysis that he is a poor shooter, a non-fit on the team, a low basketball IQ player, a chucker, etc. is old, stale, and has been debunked too many times before. Also, just because I come in and stick up for the guy, (and others as well), doesn't make me a "Dion supporter". I'm not afraid to say negative things about any player on our team, but as long as that player has Cleveland across his chest, I'm not going to sit back and let things I believe to be BS be posted in here at a fairly frequent rate, that's just the way I am. With that, enjoy the debate on the Cavs most polarizing player. I'll see you guys after the opener.
 
Curious, Bandwagoner, how much of Dion have you seen the past 2 years or are you just basing this off of the few games you have seen him play in a brand new system with brand new players? Does Dion have his warts? Yes. No one who supports him is going to say he is a flawless player, but too often the "he's an inconsistent shooter", "he's a chucker", "he has low basktball IQ" pops up from people who have not watched our team the past few years with Dion on it. As said many times before in this thread, he is a very good spot up shooter, better than a lot of big name 3 point shooters in the league, and shoots 39.8% with his jumpers, which is a pretty good number considering much more hyped shooters like Bradley Beal (I bring him up a lot, I know) shot 38.6% on his jumpers, and even Kyrie who shot 38.3% on his jumpers last year, albeit in what I believe to be a fluke year for him shooting. For a reference as to where Dion's 40% on jumpers stands amongst his peers, Klay Thompson, probably the best of the young SGs in the league IMO, shot 41.1% on his jumpers last year, and he was assisted on 76.7% of those jumpers compared to Dion on 53.6%. With more talent and more ball movement in our system, I'd expect Dion's assisted % to go up pretty significantly this year, and we already know how good of a spot up shooter he is, so I can expect that % for his jumper to go up as well.

As for this preseason, I can't tell you how many times I've seen Dion swing the ball, and the ball comes back to him for an open 3, which I have no problem with a 37% shooter from 3 taking. Maybe once or twice a game he does his two dribble pull up from just inside the 3 point line, which even I hate, but the rest of his 10+ shots are all in the flow of the offense. Kyrie breaks plays off to ISO, LeBron breaks plays off to ISO, but heaven forbid if Dion breaks a play off to ISO for himself, he isn't a fit! Everything this guy does is critiqued under a microscope, it really is amusing. LeBron was right when he said most of the blame would be coming Dion's way when things don't look right. This thread proves his point.


LeBron earned the right to break plays off to ISO. When you've had multiple seasons where you shot above 50% from the field and have had TS% .600 more than once as a perimeter player, then no one should question your shot-selections. Overall, i agree with your post.
 
Overall, LeBron, AV, Love will have no problems sharing the ball and finding an open teammate as quickly as possible, but Kyrie and Dion need to get used to scoring without dribble the ball for 6+ seconds. If we're being honest with ourselves, they're the ones who will disrupt the rhythm of the offense when the team will have some ups and downs, overcoming adversity, etc, in the regular season.
 
Since I spend way too much time in this thread, and get baited into replying to too many posts, and in order to not come off as if I am Dion or one of his family members, I will begin my week long hiatus from this thread with this post.

Dion still has plenty of issues that I personally see. He still falls asleep off the ball on defense, he still stands a bit too much on offense 5-7 feet away from the 3 point line with his hands up instead of working his way open towards the basket, he still takes too many of what I consider to be the worst shot in basketball, the mid range jumper 1-2 feet inside the 3 point line, his shot mechanics revert back to his old lean when he gets tired, he forces too many drives into traffic when his jumper isn't falling which results in him getting stripped or blocked or causes him to miss a wild layup attempt, he still struggles to finish close in traffic, he complains too much to the refs, AYEEEE!!!, AND ONE!, and he gets into his own head every once in a while.

But I also understand that this is a guy who is now on his 3rd coaching staff in 3 years, has had the amazing wing veteran leadership of Alonzo Gee, Omri Casspi, and Jarrett Jack to teach him how to play the game (yikes), has been coached by one guy who stopped caring about the team his final year and one who might be the worst offensive mind in the game today, and has been dicked around in the rotation ever since he has been in the league. I am willing to wait and see how he responds now that he is surrounded by vets who play the right way and have the clout to break some of his bad habits, to see how he plays under a coach who actually is creative and can build an offense to fit his teams strengths, to see how the likes of Marion and LeBron can turn him into an even better defender, or how Mike Miller and James Jones can improve his off the ball play while on the court with LeBron. This is still a 22 year old kid who hasn't exactly been in the best situation for him since he's been in the league (same goes for Kyrie and Tristan, who we are already seeing the benefits of having LeBron around).

Dion has flaws, sure, but the lazy analysis that he is a poor shooter, a non-fit on the team, a low basketball IQ player, a chucker, etc. is old, stale, and has been debunked too many times before. Also, just because I come in and stick up for the guy, (and others as well), doesn't make me a "Dion supporter". I'm not afraid to say negative things about any player on our team, but as long as that player has Cleveland across his chest, I'm not going to sit back and let things I believe to be BS be posted in here at a fairly frequent rate, that's just the way I am. With that, enjoy the debate on the Cavs most polarizing player. I'll see you guys after the opener.

Couldn't have typed it better myself.
 
As for this preseason, I can't tell you how many times I've seen Dion swing the ball, and the ball comes back to him for an open 3, which I have no problem with a 37% shooter from 3 taking.

Also, let's not forget that he was shooting almost 42% from three last year when spotting up. That's a very good percentage.
 
Does Dion still take some bad shots? Yes, we have all seen it. But those complaining after 6 preseason games need a reality check.

You are not giving Blatt sufficient time to coach him up. You are not giving Lebron sufficient time to mentor him.

And most important, his improvement has been tremendous.

I don't expect a complete, perfect player yet, but the improvement I have seen has been good enough for me to continue my patience where Dion is concerned. The skill is there, now we just have to finish with the will.
 
Does Dion still take some bad shots? Yes, we have all seen it. But those complaining after 6 preseason games need a reality check.

You are not giving Blatt sufficient time to coach him up. You are not giving Lebron sufficient time to mentor him.

And most important, his improvement has been tremendous.

I don't expect a complete, perfect player yet, but the improvement I have seen has been good enough for me to continue my patience where Dion is concerned. The skill is there, now we just have to finish with the will.

This is definitely one of the problems. Dion came in a much more raw state than Kyrie did. Some posters want a finished product with Dion and with the team. They will watch tape they will make adjustments. Dion had a couple issues now, but the whole team also needs a lot more work. It is looking good, but I don't think they have scratched the surface yet.
 
Dion still has plenty of issues that I personally see. He still falls asleep off the ball on defense, he still stands a bit too much on offense 5-7 feet away from the 3 point line with his hands up instead of working his way open towards the basket, he still takes too many of what I consider to be the worst shot in basketball, the mid range jumper 1-2 feet inside the 3 point line, his shot mechanics revert back to his old lean when he gets tired, he forces too many drives into traffic when his jumper isn't falling which results in him getting stripped or blocked or causes him to miss a wild layup attempt, he still struggles to finish close in traffic, he complains too much to the refs, AYEEEE!!!, AND ONE!, and he gets into his own head every once in a while.

Dion has flaws, sure, but the lazy analysis that he is a poor shooter, a non-fit on the team, a low basketball IQ player, a chucker, etc. is old, stale, and has been debunked too many times before.
This is a great post. I think you are a level-headed poster and should not think of yourself in any way as part of the group here whom I would consider "Dion supporters" - those that do not recognize any of his flaws and interpret any criticism as both personally attacking Dion and the poster.

Your critique of his game is astute, and I would consider your first paragraph that I quoted to be the factual part of the analysis. However, I have to disagree with the second paragraph. Reasonable minds can view the same facts and come to different conclusions. And aside from people calling him a poor shooter (which is not really a consistent claim that I have seen made), reasonable people can come to different conclusions on Dion, and two of those conclusions are that he is not a good fit and has a low BBIQ. The fact that many people here aren't really interested in any kind of objective analysis and prefer to be advocates for our players, and therefore drown out contrary opinions with both voluminous posts and disparate likes (and now dumb, disagree, etc.) does not mean those conclusions have been debunked. It just means this is RealCavsFans. Which is fine.

You described what he has gone through so far in his career, and I agree that it has been a shitty situation. But that's life and unfortunately, reality. And the reality is the flaws you described are real. So we have a situation where there is a flawed player with immense raw talent, but who has not seen that talent nurtured. And like the dozens of players who have been in his situation before, Dion has two roads to follow - either improve and become a positive addition to a winning team or remain obstinate and become a what could have been player. The "Dion supporters" here see the first road as a destined fait accompli. Others, whom many here consider "haters," see Dion in the context of the many raw talents like him before who have fizzled out, and see the second road as a very real possibility without a stark improvement in both BBIQ and interest in team play.

Both sides are wrong if they think they are right and have debunked the other's arguments. But unfortunately, at this point in Dion's career, the "haters" have been closer to correct. And methinks the "Dion supporters," as Queen Gertrude noted, doth protest too much with their near feverish defense and excuse making and deep down know this. This is not to say that Dion hasn't, can't or won't improve. I think he will. But his perception around the NBA is not unfounded no matter how much you guys think you debunk it. And he and teammates saying the right things in preseason does not mean they will become a reality on the court. I bet every team has a player that fans think everyone is wrong about and will shine if they are just given the right opportunity. Dion happens to be ours.
 
Your critique of his game is astute, and I would consider your first paragraph that I quoted to be the factual part of the analysis....
You described what he has gone through so far in his career, and I agree that it has been a shitty situation. But that's life and unfortunately, reality. And the reality is the flaws you described are real.

Bimbo's post really highlights the key issues for me.

I'm pretty forgiving of guys who make the right play/decision but don't execute it correctly. So if Dion doesn't finish as well as I'd like, it might be frustrating to see, but I don't really blame him. I know he's working at it and trying his best. Kind of like TT's broken FT/jumpshot. The FT thing was aggravating, and the jumper is still aggravating, but he's working at it. Delly can be absolutely torched by quicker guards, but he's putting in max effort and trying to make the right play. He just ain't that good, and I can live with that.

Then there are the situations where the guy makes the wrong play. It may be the kind of boneheadedness we saw out of Hickson, and Drew Gooden, like someone missing a cutter or a rotation. That bugs me a bit more, because that's not a case of physical or skill limitations. It's just squarely between the ears. Still, some guys don't have the same level of bb IQ as others, and as long as such mistakes are caused by ignorance rather than attitude, and the guy is trying to learn, I don't get as mad.

But when on-court problems look like they have an attitude/emotion/maturity component, I'm really intolerant. I figure that while it's the job of coaches to teach you the game, maturity is your personal responsibility. I really like Kyrie, but was extremely pissed when he had the "I don't give a craps" later in the season. And that's the same reason I was so pissed at LBJ for (as I saw it) quitting in Game 5 of the Boston series. So when Dion makes bad plays that I believe are the product of an attitude/maturity issue, it just pisses me off on a core level, and I have no sympathy for the idea that he (or anyone else) just needs more guidance/more time to grow up.

So, is Dion taking bad shots because he doesn't know any better (excusable to me), or because he just wants to get his, and so isn't even looking for other guys (inexcusable to me)? The result may be the same, but the impact on me as a fan is much different.

Admittedly, that may mean I undervalue in basketball terms a guy whose has some flaws based in immaturity rather than in skills. So as a bottom-line issue, I can't really dispute it if someone were to say I'm too hard on a guy like that.
 
I'm confident that Blatt isn't going to let something get out of hand if he doesn't like it. He already addressed Dion taking too many shots about 2 games after it started, and he will continue to monitor it. Dion will adjust, because Dion realizes being on this team is his meal ticket...
 
I'm confident that Blatt isn't going to let something get out of hand if he doesn't like it. He already addressed Dion taking too many shots about 2 games after it started, and he will continue to monitor it. Dion will adjust, because Dion realizes being on this team is his meal ticket...

I'm not really worried about anything getting out of hand. Blatt doesn't seem to be the type of coach to let himself be run over by any player. And I think/hope that Dion will buy into it as well for as long as he is here, and I don't mean that to imply that the Cavs will get rid of him anytime soon because of a lack of value or because Dion is causing problems. I actually do expect him to work around that stuff.

My main concern with Dion long-term is that I'm just not confident that he is going be able to maximize his skills/career as a long-term 4th option.
 
You described what he has gone through so far in his career, and I agree that it has been a shitty situation. But that's life and unfortunately, reality. And the reality is the flaws you described are real. So we have a situation where there is a flawed player with immense raw talent, but who has not seen that talent nurtured. And like the dozens of players who have been in his situation before, Dion has two roads to follow - either improve and become a positive addition to a winning team or remain obstinate and become a what could have been player. The "Dion supporters" here see the first road as a destined fait accompli. Others, whom many here consider "haters," see Dion in the context of the many raw talents like him before who have fizzled out, and see the second road as a very real possibility without a stark improvement in both BBIQ and interest in team play.

This is the only part of your post that I take issue with. A lot of times having a bad coach hurts players. The example close to home is look at LBJ under Paul Silas. For all the (deserved) shit we give Mike Brown, he helped LBJ play great defense. Allen Iverson after Larry Brown got fired also became a worse player. Danny Green under Mike Brown and then Greg Popovich. Ben Wallace was a mediocre, undersized big man before being traded to Detroit where Rick Carlisle made him a DPOY. Furthermore, Larry Brown made him a top-5 active big man in the game.

Overall, life can be shitty, but certain coaches are better for players. Mike Brown and Byron Scott both hurt Dion. Dion was also in a situation where he was ganged up on by Kyrie and TT. Having veteran leadership in LBJ has stopped the gossip and, hopefully, David Blatt will be a far superior coach to MB and BS. I'm not saying Dion should not be blamed for struggles the previous two years, however, Dion was in a shitty situation that did effect his play and that does need to be considered.
 
This is the only part of your post that I take issue with. A lot of times having a bad coach hurts players. The example close to home is look at LBJ under Paul Silas. For all the (deserved) shit we give Mike Brown, he helped LBJ play great defense. Allen Iverson after Larry Brown got fired also became a worse player. Danny Green under Mike Brown and then Greg Popovich. Ben Wallace was a mediocre, undersized big man before being traded to Detroit where Rick Carlisle made him a DPOY. Furthermore, Larry Brown made him a top-5 active big man in the game.

Overall, life can be shitty, but certain coaches are better for players. Mike Brown and Byron Scott both hurt Dion. Dion was also in a situation where he was ganged up on by Kyrie and TT. Having veteran leadership in LBJ has stopped the gossip and, hopefully, David Blatt will be a far superior coach to MB and BS. I'm not saying Dion should not be blamed for struggles the previous two years, however, Dion was in a shitty situation that did effect his play and that does need to be considered.
Totally agree with you. And that's why I haven't written him off. However, the dysfunctional last two years will have real, lasting effects, which makes the hurdle that much higher. And I'm rooting for him.
 
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