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The Brian Hoyer thread...

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Schaub was coming off a season where he looked washed up when he signed that contract. This year has proven that he is indeed washed up. That is certainly a fair basement.

Schaub was also only a year removed from a Pro Bowl season at the time of the signing. Hoyer is a year removed from missing significant time after an ACL tear. I don't know why this doesn't matter to some, it's going to factor into any contract talks.

If Hoyer also had a couple Pro Bowl appearances, three seasons of 4,000+ yards, and three different seasons of a +10 TD/INT differential I'd agree Schaub's contract would be a fair basement. He doesn't though.
 
Schaub was also only a year removed from a Pro Bowl season at the time of the signing. Hoyer is a year removed from missing significant time after an ACL tear. I don't know why this doesn't matter to some, it's going to factor into any contract talks.

If Hoyer also had a couple Pro Bowl appearances, three seasons of 4,000+ yards, and three different seasons of a +10 TD/INT differential I'd agree Schaub's contract would be a fair basement. He doesn't though.

Your assessment on Hoyer has been made. You see him as nothing more than a backup. I do find it amusing that Hoyer is on pace to equal Schaub's 2012 numbers, aside from completion percentage. 2012 Schaub had one heck of an offensive team around him. Let's see how the rest of the season plays out before such definitive statements of his worth. I'm sure rival GMs will be.
 
Just looking at QB ranking is wildly unfair. All the top QB's have the great weapons. We just don't have the weapons other teams have...yet somehow we still have 6 wins with 6 games to go.

I don't think Tom Brady has great weapons at all. Outside Gronk, who definitely is a stud (clearly the best tight end in football), his receivers aren't that great. I wouldn't stay terrible, but definitely not great at all. None are pro-bowl worthy. But then again, this is Tom Brady, arguably the greatest of all-time.

I do think too many aren't giving Hoyer enough credit. Hey, it's OKAY to not want to be married to the guy, and want him long-term. I'm still not ready to say definitively if I want him long-term either.

I've been in wait-and-see mentality with Hoyer for much of the year. This talk early on of contract extensions, trading Johnny or not, I thought were way too premature.

Let's be real, Hoyer is not just along for the ride though. He's had some bad games, some bad throws, and has definitely shown limitations. We all know that.

But its absolutely ridiculous, if some seriously don't think he's had a lot to do with our record too.

You don't have to like him, but you can't say he's not seriously contributed largely into our success.

When Hoyer plays well, we win!! When he doesn't, we lose.

What does that tell ya? We've been more relied on Hoyer than some want to admit to.

We're not good enough as a team to win games if Hoyer isn't playing well.
 
I don't think Tom Brady has great weapons at all. Outside Gronk, who definitely is a stud (clearly the best tight end in football), his receivers aren't that great. I wouldn't stay terrible, but definitely not great at all. None are pro-bowl worthy. But then again, this is Tom Brady, arguably the greatest of all-time.

Remember the first three weeks of the season? Many people who have jobs covering football for a living were saying "Brady is washed up," and "What is Brady doing wrong that he usually doesn't do?" I was like, ummm, his personnel has drastically changed and his offense is beat up. They changed some things with the line and Gronk gets healthy, and now those people are calling him arguably the greatest of all time again.

I'm not singling you out, godfather, I'm referring more to people I hear on the air and watch on television.

So again, the Hoyer praise was coming on hard and thick... then he loses Cameron and Mack... then he surges back on national television in Cincy... then people forget all about a productive first half against the Texans because of a lesser performance in the second half.

Public opinion is a fickle business for quarterbacks. So much comes down to the supporting cast, the offensive coordinator making adjustments, and overcoming a great deal of scrutiny.
 
Problem is Brian Hoyer is not as good as Carson Palmer or Matt Schaub were, and it's not even close. Look at their peaks- Palmer led the league in TDs and completion percentage as a 26-year-old in his second season, and Schaub threw for 4,770 yards in 2009- at the time one of the highest single-season totals in NFL history.

Stop lumping Hoyer in with one-time franchise passers like Palmer/Schaub, Hoyer is not at their level as a football player. Is it really this difficult for others to use Kyle Orton and Ryan Fitzpatrick instead?

And anyone even mentioning the transition tag with Hoyer needs to put down the crack pipe. $16 million a year, even if we have the cap room, would be the worst contract in the NFL.

'Were' is the key word in your response. I agree, if you compare peak performance to peak performance you take Palmer and Schaub all day every day. However; you aren't comparing peak performance. You are comparing Schuab having an unbelievably bad year where he threw more TDs to the other team than he did his own players. He was not a hot commodity yet the Raiders gave him that kind of money. Palmer on the other hand is a 34 year old QB who isn't the same player he was in Cincy pre knee injury. The past 3+ years he's completed 60% of his passes for a lot of yards but in those 47 games he's thrown 55 INTs. He's not the 68% passer with 32 TDs and 12 INTs he was back in Cincy 10 seasons ago. Comparing 2014 Hoyer with 2014 Palmer and 2013 Schuab is perfectly reasonable.

IMO you can't compare the SALARIES of Orton or Fitzpatrick to Hoyer's situation because they are completely different. Hoyer is going to get signed as a starting QB whether it's here or somewhere else. Orton was clearly signed as a backup/insurance policy both in Dallas and in Buffalo. Fitzpatrick was signed to a 2 year contract to compete for the starting job with a bunch of rookies and other FA type players. Houston did not think of him as a starter but a place holder until someone else is ready. Again, a different situation than Hoyer will be in this off season.
 
Remember the first three weeks of the season? Many people who have jobs covering football for a living were saying "Brady is washed up," and "What is Brady doing wrong that he usually doesn't do?" I was like, ummm, his personnel has drastically changed and his offense is beat up. They changed some things with the line and Gronk gets healthy, and now those people are calling him arguably the greatest of all time again.

I'm not singling you out, godfather, I'm referring more to people I hear on the air and watch on television.

So again, the Hoyer praise was coming on hard and thick... then he loses Cameron and Mack... then he surges back on national television in Cincy... then people forget all about a productive first half against the Texans because of a lesser performance in the second half.

Public opinion is a fickle business for quarterbacks. So much comes down to the supporting cast, the offensive coordinator making adjustments, and overcoming a great deal of scrutiny.

Oh I remember, and I laughed at that notion. NO QB STANDS A CHANCE when their line is really, really bad. Especially QB's like Brady and Manning that aren't exactly the most mobile guys in the world to begin with.

A-Rod is at least mobile enough to extend plays, but hey, not every QB is blessed with great speed for their position, great pocket awareness, and an arm like his.

It seems like our offensive line has taken a dramatic shift back, compared to NE, and Hoyer is now experiencing similar issues that Brady was early in the season.

We don't have Belichick as our coach to "fix" these issues. Also, we are not afforded the depth that NE did have on their roster. They drafted a few promising rookies, it was just figuring out where to plug them in correctly.

Also granted, Hoyer is clearly not Tom Brady, and I don't think anyone of us would except that from him.

Our line is not playing great football, it's very inconsistent. We got away with it against a struggling Bengals team that's not getting good penetration in the trenches lately. I was not surprised at all we'd beat the Bengals (well I didn't expect it to be that dominate), but also figured, we'd see more of a setback against a very aggressive defensive line, and probably the best defensive player in all of football in JJ Watt.

Right now, if we are going against really good defensive fronts that can get pressure, specifically up the middle, our offense is in for a long day.
 
How many games was Cameron the healthy player he was last year? He was playing with a sprained AC shoulder joint.

This summer ESPN i think had us last in the power rankings. We aren't "other teams". We are in a transition year with new coaches and a ton of new pieces...including a QB coming off of an ACL injury. We are trying to climb out of the cellar of the NFL. I get the fact that everyone has injuries and suspensions, but I can't think of one that lost 3 pro-bowlers on offense. That's devastating for a team that was a weak team to start with.

As much as it sucks to have this happen, other teams have overcome a decent amount of obstacles. While I can't think of any teams like that off the top of my head, I'm sure it's happened before.

It's not an excuse, it's a fact. We are 27th in the league in rushing...that's certainly not great...or even average. Sure, other teams are starting rookie running backs, but how good are they? The Browns, having lost the #1 receiver in the NFL and their Pro-bowl tight end can't afford to have a weak running game too.

There #1 wr is back, so this is not an issue anymore. I'm not sure what's going on with cameron, he's missed 3 weeks with a concussion. I wouldn't offer him big money at the end of the year.

I was watching the Colt's Monday night game last week. Gruden made a great point. He said that Luck wasn't having a great night accuracy wise, but at the end of the day everyone will talk about what a tremendous game he had. He pointed out several plays that were basically "hail marys" where the receivers made incredible plays. The TY Hilton catch comes to mind. He just threw up a jump ball and Hilton pulled it away from the defender for a touchdown. Gruden said that having weapons like that are a huge factor in a QB's confidence and success. He said, Peyton Manning is incredible...no doubt...but how great is it to be able to throw to Demaryius Thomas, Wes Welker, Emanual Sanders and Julius Thomas. He finished by saying it makes you wonder what the hell is going on with Jay Cutler who has arguably the best weapons in the NFL.

Peyton and Luck also make their receivers look better then what they actually are, so it is a two way street there. Tom Brady made the playoffs last year with no name wr's.

Again, we were a bottom dweller in the NFL last year. This year we lost the best center in the NFL. We lost the leading receiver in the NFL. We lost our pro-bowler tight end. We have two rookie running backs and just cut our veteran running back...we are 27th in rushing. Add all that up and it's going to have a negative impact on ANY quarterback. Had i told you all those facts before the season, is there anyone on the planet that would guess we'd have 6 wins with 6 left to play? 4 wins?? 2 wins??? And no, i'm not saying give Hoyer all the credit for those 6 wins. Just saying that after all the adversity, he's done pretty well given the hand he has been dealt. Has he had a couple dogs? Sure. Would he do better if he had skill players comparable to some of the top QB's in the league? Absolutely.

I'm not saying Hoyer isn't the answer because I don't think I have seen enough work out of him. However, I do think he played like shit last week and some people on here are in complete denial about it. You just admitted he had a couple of dogs, so I'm assuming you're conceding that he played terrible last week.

Take away Dez Bryant and Jason Whitten from Romo...switch Demarco out for Terrence West. Take away his best lineman too. How does Tony Romo and Cowboys look then?

I think Joe Thomas is our best lineman not Alex Mack, but I think it's very close. Can someone tell me why didn't we have joe moving to cover watt?

Just looking at QB ranking is wildly unfair. All the top QB's have the great weapons. We just don't have the weapons other teams have...yet somehow we still have 6 wins with 6 games to go.

I disagree, Tom Brady doesn't have exactly stud wr and I don't think Drew Bree's has the best wr's either, but they do make them look better. Who on pittsburgh is an absolute stud other then Antonio Brown? Where were Russell Wilson's wr's found last year?


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'Were' is the key word in your response. I agree, if you compare peak performance to peak performance you take Palmer and Schaub all day every day. However; you aren't comparing peak performance. You are comparing Schuab having an unbelievably bad year where he threw more TDs to the other team than he did his own players.

To start, that's not right. He had more interceptions than touchdowns, but he threw more touchdowns to Texans (10) than pick-sixes (4).

And I used those stats to show that those QBs brought multiple years of being high-level passers into contract talks, something Hoyer does not. Earlier today I wrote about saving cap space for players with better track records than Hoyer- IMO their success over multiple years make them uncomparable to him for contract purposes.

He was not a hot commodity yet the Raiders gave him that kind of money.

Not a hot commodity? He was arguably the best available QB. Josh McCown (1 year, $5 million) and Michael Vick (1 year, $5 million) got the most money as free agents, but Schaub's restructuring of his contract (2 years, $15 million) gave him the richest contract signed by a QB this summer that switched teams.

Palmer on the other hand is a 34 year old QB who isn't the same player he was in Cincy pre knee injury. The past 3+ years he's completed 60% of his passes for a lot of yards but in those 47 games he's thrown 55 INTs.

His completion percentage is actually at 62.0% over the past four seasons, and in those 47 games he's also got 70 TDs as well.

He's not the 68% passer with 32 TDs and 12 INTs he was back in Cincy 10 seasons ago. Comparing 2014 Hoyer with 2014 Palmer and 2013 Schuab is perfectly reasonable.

Uh, 2014 Palmer blows 2014 Hoyer out of the water.

Palmer: 271.0 YPG, 7.3 YPA, 1.8 PaTDs, 1.3 INT%, 62.9 Completion %, 95.6 rating
Hoyer: 254.2 YPG, 7.8 YPA, 1.1 PaTDs, 1.5 INT%, 55.7 Completion %, 86.0 rating

Thought this would be more appropriate, 2014 stats-

Orton: 263.3 YPA, 6.9 YPA, 1.7 PaTDs, 1.3 INT%, 64.0 Completion %, 93.5 rating
Fitzpatrick: 217.8 YPA, 7.7 YPA, 1.2 PaTDs, 3.1 INT%, 61.8 Completion %, 87.1 rating
Hoyer: 254.2 YPG, 7.8 YPA, 1.1 PaTDs, 1.5 INT%, 55.7 Completion %, 86.0 rating

IMO you can't compare the SALARIES of Orton or Fitzpatrick to Hoyer's situation because they are completely different. Hoyer is going to get signed as a starting QB whether it's here or somewhere else. Orton was clearly signed as a backup/insurance policy both in Dallas and in Buffalo. Fitzpatrick was signed to a 2 year contract to compete for the starting job with a bunch of rookies and other FA type players.

Orton wasn't paid $5 million to come out of retirement to be a backup, sorry if you believe that. Hoyer is most likely going to enter a similar situation as Fitzpatrick did this year (and what Hoyer himself entered this year), where he's got the leg up on a recently drafted QB going into camp.

Houston did not think of him as a starter but a place holder until someone else is ready. Again, a different situation than Hoyer will be in this off season.

Not really. 30-year-old Brian Hoyer is nothing more than a place holder as well.
 
I understand what you're getting at, @CosmoKramer, but Schaub is a bum. It's no coincidence that his best year came when Shanahan was the OC - much like another QB we all know and love.

Comparing Palmer and Hoyer is simply not fair to Hoyer - even the 34 year old Palmer of this season. His physical tools are so much greater than Hoyer's that he is able to easily make throws Hoyer could only dream of.

I think a good comparison for Hoyer is a slightly lesser version of Matt Hasselbeck. A guy with below average accuracy and arm, but who is a hard worker and "team" guy. I don't think Hoyer will ever have the success Hasselbeck had, but if he could approach that level of play, I think people would be ecstatic. If we had a running game like what Seattle did during Hasselbeck's best years (Shaun Alexander), Hoyer would be fine. Their defenses were average to slightly above average during their run in the mid-2000s, but Hasselbeck did enough to keep them afloat.
 
@CosmoKramer I'm not going to go quote by quote in response to you but many of your retorts are talking about meaningless differences. I didn't need to look up Schaub's Pick 6 to TD ratio because no matter what the true numbers are it was horrible. I'm still talking about a PICK 6 to TD ratio, c'mon. Yes Palmer has thrown for 62% not 60%, my bad? Yes he has thrown 70 TDs which is good but 55 INTs in 47 games which is bad. Turnovers are the worst thing a QB can do and Palmer does it more than 1 time a game.

What is getting lost here is not what the playing comparison is but what the pay comparison is. Hoyer is going to get paid as a starting QB in the league, you may not like it or agree with it but that is what is going to happen. He's not going to get a Kyle Orton 2 year deal as insurance for a struggling rookie QB. He's also not going to get a stop gap contract like Fitzpatrick got. Conversely he's not going to get a 7 year deal with 50 million guaranteed but he's going to get starter money. So who in the league has recently gotten starter money and what kind of ballpark does he fit into. Back to my original post, the best examples are Schaub (salary floor) and Palmer (salary ceiling). He's going to be somewhere in-between. My guess is he will be reasonably below Palmer's numbers but significantly higher than Schaub's.
 
@CosmoKramer I'm not going to go quote by quote in response to you but many of your retorts are talking about meaningless differences. I didn't need to look up Schaub's Pick 6 to TD ratio because no matter what the true numbers are it was horrible. I'm still talking about a PICK 6 to TD ratio, c'mon. Yes Palmer has thrown for 62% not 60%, my bad? Yes he has thrown 70 TDs which is good but 55 INTs in 47 games which is bad. Turnovers are the worst thing a QB can do and Palmer does it more than 1 time a game.

What is getting lost here is not what the playing comparison is but what the pay comparison is. Hoyer is going to get paid as a starting QB in the league, you may not like it or agree with it but that is what is going to happen. He's not going to get a Kyle Orton 2 year deal as insurance for a struggling rookie QB. He's also not going to get a stop gap contract like Fitzpatrick got. Conversely he's not going to get a 7 year deal with 50 million guaranteed but he's going to get starter money. So who in the league has recently gotten starter money and what kind of ballpark does he fit into. Back to my original post, the best examples are Schaub (salary floor) and Palmer (salary ceiling). He's going to be somewhere in-between. My guess is he will be reasonably below Palmer's numbers but significantly higher than Schaub's.

This is going nowhere. "Meaningless differences" are what separate the quarterbacks you used, I apologize for pointing this out and correcting your mistakes.

IMO the starter argument is just terrible. McCown was signed to be a starter last season as well, and he only made $5 million after being wildly more productive than Hoyer on a per-game basis. Using Palmer as a ceiling is just a massive reach, I feel like I'm taking to Brian Hoyer's agent.

Schaub got $7.5 million a year, you still really think Hoyer is signing a contract significantly higher than that? Let's bet on it. I don't think Hoyer breaks $8 million a year, you do. Winner picks the other's avatar for a month?
 
honestly who gives a shit what his salary is, its not going to be in the elite range and its not going to be 1.5 million a year. The browns have 50 million dollars in cap space next year. No matter what, unless hoyer literally suffers a horrible injury or his performance falls off the face of the earth the browns need to be looking at getting him into a 2-3 year contract. Might the browns end up over paying a little bit, sure. but i think we can all agree (except for tornacide and johnny manziel's parents) that keeping hoyer around is a good thing
 
This is going nowhere. "Meaningless differences" are what separate the quarterbacks you used, I apologize for pointing this out and correcting your mistakes.

IMO the starter argument is just terrible. McCown was signed to be a starter last season as well, and he only made $5 million after being wildly more productive than Hoyer on a per-game basis. Using Palmer as a ceiling is just a massive reach, I feel like I'm taking to Brian Hoyer's agent.

Schaub got $7.5 million a year, you still really think Hoyer is signing a contract significantly higher than that? Let's bet on it. I don't think Hoyer breaks $8 million a year, you do. Winner picks the other's avatar for a month?

The argument is not about individual stats but the caliber and contract situation the players are in. It's not about comparing 62 vs 60% completion percentage or Pick 6 to TD ratio, it's about the overall worth these QBs are to the teams that signed them.

Again, Hoyer is going to get starter money this offseason. You may not agree that he should and I'm sure you can make a compelling argument of why he shouldn't. However; he's going to get that kind of money. The purpose of this exercise is to gauge his monetary value as a STARTING QB. Take the names out. He's going to get more than an experience starting QB vet coming off a horrendous year on the back end of his career and less than a reasonably productive starting QB getting his last full time starter commitment.

I'll take you up on a bet. 30 day Avatar bet. Hoyer gets more than 8 million in cap hit in any 1 year in his next contract.
 
As much as it sucks to have this happen, other teams have overcome a decent amount of obstacles. While I can't think of any teams like that off the top of my head, I'm sure it's happened before.



There #1 wr is back, so this is not an issue anymore. I'm not sure what's going on with cameron, he's missed 3 weeks with a concussion. I wouldn't offer him big money at the end of the year.



Peyton and Luck also make their receivers look better then what they actually are, so it is a two way street there. Tom Brady made the playoffs last year with no name wr's.



I'm not saying Hoyer isn't the answer because I don't think I have seen enough work out of him. However, I do think he played like shit last week and some people on here are in complete denial about it. You just admitted he had a couple of dogs, so I'm assuming you're conceding that he played terrible last week.



I think Joe Thomas is our best lineman not Alex Mack, but I think it's very close. Can someone tell me why didn't we have joe moving to cover watt?



I disagree, Tom Brady doesn't have exactly stud wr and I don't think Drew Bree's has the best wr's either, but they do make them look better. Who on pittsburgh is an absolute stud other then Antonio Brown? Where were Russell Wilson's wr's found last year?


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Well, God forbid, he's not Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or even Drew Brees.

Those guys definitely have talented receivers though. Of course, they make everyone around them better. I don't think anyone is trying to say they don't.

You take away the elite of the elite, Brady, Rodgers, and Manning. Most good QB's are going to really struggle without a potent receiving core. Although Rodgers and Manning (imo has the best receiving core in football), definitely have talented receiving cores.

Brady was looking pretty average before Gronk got healthy, and they fixed their protection problems.

We've seen Drew Brees really struggle this season. Bad protection, injuries with his receivers, all of sudden he doesn't look that GREAT. Does that mean he's bad? Of course not. Football is the ultimate team game. The QB's get all the credit when it goes well, but three phases are needed for most to be effective. Blocking, running game, and getting open. No QB can live without anyone of these things.

I don't care what QB you have, if your line is not protecting, particularly up the middle, you're going to have a lot of bad games.

Our line is below average right now. Not horrendous, but inconsistent, and very vulnerable up the middle.

It has nothing to do with who is our best offensive line, our interior line is vulnerable.

As for why Joe Thomas was not blocking Watt. They did line Watt up once against Thomas, and he got stuffed, then they moved him away from Thomas. So wherever Thomas lined up, they'd probably just move Watt on the other side anyways.

You don't typically want tackles blocking out of position, and against players that are physically bigger in weight. He's used to going against guys in the 240-260 range. Watt is a rare case that has both power, and speed.

I'm not saying Joe couldn't handle him, but that's someone he's not used to blocking.
 
As for why Joe Thomas was not blocking Watt. They did line Watt up once against Thomas, and he got stuffed, then they moved him away from Thomas. So wherever Thomas lined up, they'd probably just move Watt on the other side anyways.

You don't typically want tackles blocking out of position, and against players that are physically bigger in weight. He's used to going against guys in the 240-260 range. Watt is a rare case that has both power, and speed.

I'm not saying Joe couldn't handle him, but that's someone he's not used to blocking.

I could have sworn another team had their best lineman mirror watt earlier this year.


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