The Brian Hoyer thread...

[CosmoKramer]

I blame @Randolphkeys for bob's vendetta against PFF stats.

 

[The Voice]

Has keys admitted Hoyer had two bad games in a row yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk at your local pub.

 

[jlj3184]

I blame @Randolphkeys for bob's vendetta against PFF stats.

I don't. I blame bob's education and job. And I don't say that as an insult. As an engineer he's forced to rely on formulas and tangible evidence. The issue is, this is not a laboratory we're talking about. It's not something that can be derived down to a simple algebraic equation. He's been conditioned his entire adult life to expect something and when it's not there, it's dismissed as worthless. It serves him well in every day life, I'm sure.

Trying to compare engineering to individual player performance in a football game is where bob is losing this argument.

 

[Randolphkeys]

"We can’t attempt to quantify how much a scheme or injury might be affecting his play — that is for our readers and users to decide for themselves. The bottom line in all our data is that it isn’t the be-all and end-all of football analysis. What we want more than anything is for people to take our information and combine it with their own knowledge and information to come to their own conclusions."

Why drag me back in, Cosmo?



I think discussing the Houston game is old news, so we should all agree to drop it. That said, if PFF says not to use their stats as gospel and instead a lens to view the game, pay them the curtsey of following their own advice.

And... if you don't like all the personal attacks embedded in the posts, stop doing it

 

[CosmoKramer]

Why drag me back in, Cosmo?

Couldn't handle bob anymore, it's coming off as deliberate trolling.

I think discussing the Houston game is old news, so we should all agree to drop it. That said, if PFF says not to use their stats as gospel and instead a lens to view the game, pay them the curtsey of following their own advice.

And... if you don't like all the personal attacks embedded in the posts, stop doing it

I think most would agree there's a happy medium between viewing PFF's numbers as gospel and writing them off as randomly pulled numbers from a wizard behind a curtain.

And where are all these personal attacks?

I'll admit I've been pretty grouchy since Saturday morning; I slipped on some ice and luckily used my elbow to break the fall. It'll be slung up for at least another couple weeks, but it's hard to be positive when you can barely put on clothes and wipe your own ass. I'll try to tone it down, but another 3 pick performance against Buffalo from Hoyer would be hard to stomach.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Well, Cosmo, here is a little background on where I'm seeing this thread go wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

B00bie does it all the time, and that's his thing which I usually ignore. I decided to join in about two weeks ago in an effort to brush it back, fight fire with fire, and I regret it. I hate when the subject of posts becomes the people debating rather than the subject.

Except in EAYOR... where nothing of consequence is ever discussed and I love it for that purpose.

I think the thread has been heavily ad hominem ever since and barely readable to most of RCF. So, I've been stepping back since Sunday evening.

That said, I'll continue to trust my eyes on Hoyer: bad effort by the supporting cast against Houston with a below average performance in the second half... and Hoyer saved his own bacon with that last drive in Atlanta.

 

[AZ_]

Well, Cosmo, here is a little background on where I'm seeing this thread go wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

B00bie does it all the time, and that's his thing which I usually ignore. I decided to join in about two weeks ago in an effort to brush it back, fight fire with fire, and I regret it. I hate when the subject of posts becomes the people debating rather than the subject.

Except in EAYOR... where nothing of consequence is ever discussed and I love it for that purpose.

I think the thread has been heavily ad hominem ever since and barely readable to most of RCF. So, I've been stepping back since Sunday evening.

That said, I'll continue to trust my eyes on Hoyer: bad effort by the supporting cast against Houston with a below average performance in the second half... and Hoyer saved his own bacon with that last drive in Atlanta.

Says the guy who's been putting "boobie's gonna boobie" before every post while ignoring the entirety of my arguments to focus on something you found sarcastic or condescending.

Keep trying to take that moral high ground, though.

 

[jlj3184]

Browns winning despite Hoyer
With Cleveland playing well as a team and coming off a last-second victory over Atlanta that puts it half a game off of first place at 7-4 in a very competitive AFC North, all must be well in Browns country, right?
Well, not quite. Because despite starting quarterback Brian Hoyer orchestrating an excellent last-minute, 61-yard drive for the win, he played very poorly overall for the second straight week.
Were these performances just blips or the beginning of a dangerous trend? Moreover, is Hoyer the long-term solution at QB for the Browns or just an accident waiting to happen? Would the team be better off with Johnny Manziel next season?
Here's a look at why most signs point to Hoyer not being the long-term solution in Cleveland -- even if he's the best option the Browns have at the moment.
O-line, WRs driving offense
It's easy to look to the three interceptions in Hoyer's Week 12 stat line and believe things are falling apart. And while it's clear he played a part on all of the picks, it goes deeper than that. He overthrew at lot of receivers, including one toss to Josh Gordon that would have put the Browns in far better field goal position at the end of the first half. Plus, Hoyer dropped a shotgun snap that could easily have cost them points.
His intercepted throw to the back of the end zone near the end of the game -- scrambling right and fading back, which Desmond Trufant picked off -- had the air of a man who thinks he can do anything. His postgame news conference showed he understood that isn't the case and that he realized just how poorly he played. Of the 26 quarterbacks we've graded so far in Week 12, only Ryan Mallett's horror show against the Bengals (which we now know may have been injury-induced) graded out lower than Hoyer's minus-5.5.
A win is a win, but it took Matt Ryan's worst game of the year and some awful clock management from Falcons coach Mike Smith to even give Hoyer the chance for redemption on Sunday.
The bottom line is that Hoyer is a below-average QB whose deficiencies are being masked by excellent play from his offensive line and a group of receivers who have played so far above expectations that their mentor, Mike McDaniel, would be a shoo-in for WR coach of the year if there were such an award.
Every quarterback in the NFL consistently performs better from a clean pocket than when under pressure, so playing behind an O-line group that is currently rated as the second best of 2014 in that regard has to be helpful. The Browns would probably be No. 1 except for the season-ending injury to center Alex Mack.
Also, as hard as it may be to believe, as a group no team has had more consistent play in 2014 from its wideouts than the Browns. They are averaging a league-leading 2.16 yards per route run (YPRR), which is a full half-yard above the league average and a solid 0.1 better than second-place Denver. Only Miles Austin has graded negatively (and then only marginally so), while the return of Gordon should make things even better for the man behind center.
The main problem with Hoyer is that his accuracy is poor; although completion percentage can be a blunt instrument, in this case his number of 56.0 is an accurate representation of his play. Of all his throws, 39 percent have been incomplete due to errors in basic accuracy (not a result of drops or throwaways), which ranks fourth worst in the NFL. And while some say this can be mitigated by his average depth of target (third highest in the league), that's really not the case. His weakness is between the numbers in the range of 0 to 9 yards from the line of scrimmage. In this zone he's completed just 55 of 91 passes (60 percent) for 512 yards with one touchdown and three interceptions. The average NFL completion percentage in that area is 74 percent. Peyton Manning is at 80 percent while Hoyer is next to last.
QB options, outlook
It's a difficult QB scenario in Cleveland because the attribute Hoyer does have in his favor is the thing that most people use to describe his most notable competition (Johnny Manziel): the knack for winning. Regardless of whether the Browns are winning because of or in spite of Hoyer, what's the alternative?
We have very little to go on in that regard, but on the small amount of evidence we have from the preseason Manziel is currently no better of an answer. He graded a poor minus-8.3 in his four appearances and struggled in terms of accuracy, completing slightly more than half his throws (although he was 71 percent in that same intermediate zone). Manziel could well be a better option in the long term, but for now it's best to accept that Hoyer is the QB in Cleveland, for better or worse.
Everything we've seen so far suggests that while Hoyer isn't the Browns' long-term solution, for now he's the best they've got.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/stor...er-more-problem-solution-cleveland-browns-nfl

 

[Mr. Orange]

Says the guy who's been putting "boobie's gonna boobie" before every post while ignoring the entirety of my arguments to focus on something you found sarcastic or condescending.

Keep trying to take that moral high ground, though.

Are you and Keys still fighting?

Look, as much as it pains me to say this, B00bie was right about Hoyer. He has the tools to be a backup. He has been consistent on this point from the start. All he wants is a legit franchise QB prospect, of which we have none. However, Keys is right to say that we have not seen Hoyer with all his weapons. Fine. That will make Hoyer better, yes, but he is still not a franchise guy. But...he is likely the best we have, so why not couch the argument until the offseason?

 

[AZ_]

Are you and Keys still fighting?

Look, as much as it pains me to say this, B00bie was right about Hoyer. He has the tools to be a backup. He has been consistent on this point from the start. All he wants is a legit franchise QB prospect, of which we have none. However, Keys is right to say that we have not seen Hoyer with all his weapons. Fine. That will make Hoyer better, yes, but he is still not a franchise guy. But...he is likely the best we have, so why not couch the argument until the offseason?

It shouldn't pain you, OJ. My track record here speaks for itself in regards to player evals.

Keys is absolutely right that we haven't seen Hoyer with all his weapons.

But that doesn't change what Hoyer is, it may invariably bail him out of looking bad at times. He's always just going to be Hoyer, you take the good with the bad and hope like hell he produces well enough to keep the job.

The last two weeks have been horrendous, as much as some would like to spin it.

Going to need to see Bengals game Hoyer, that guy or anything close can get this team to the playoffs.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Are you and Keys still fighting?

Look, as much as it pains me to say this, B00bie was right about Hoyer. He has the tools to be a backup. He has been consistent on this point from the start. All he wants is a legit franchise QB prospect, of which we have none. However, Keys is right to say that we have not seen Hoyer with all his weapons. Fine. That will make Hoyer better, yes, but he is still not a franchise guy. But...he is likely the best we have, so why not couch the argument until the offseason?

I respect the heck out of your main point at the end, but aren't you basically saying, "Drop the hot button subject with the Browns for over a month?"

Again, I do like your summation of the issue. Thanks for posting your even-keeled thoughts. I intend not to push B00bie's buttons, which I certainly did the day after the Houston loss. In my defense, I was hung over at work and making the best of it. If you think I've been fighting since then... you don't know 'bout me. Vaseline on meh face and pullin' out meh earrrangs, muthafukka.

 

[Mr. Orange]

It shouldn't pain you, OJ. My track record here speaks for itself in regards to player evals.

Keys is absolutely right that we haven't seen Hoyer with all his weapons.

But that doesn't change what Hoyer is, it may invariably bail him out of looking bad at times. He's always just going to be Hoyer, you take the good with the bad and hope like hell he produces well enough to keep the job.

The last two weeks have been horrendous, as much as some would like to spin it.

Going to need to see Bengals game Hoyer, that guy or anything close can get this team to the playoffs.

I like your player evaluations, but you go a bit overboard on the snark at times. But yes, the last two weeks have been horrendous, but I still have more confidence in Hoyer than JFF. The fact that Pettine has never even considered putting him in makes me wonder how awful he looks in practice. I dream of trading him for the Dallas first this year and then trading up for Mariota...

 

[Mr. Orange]

I respect the heck out of your main point at the end, but aren't you basically saying, "Drop the hot button subject with the Browns for over a month?"

Again, I do like your summation of the issue. Thanks for posting your even-keeled thoughts. I intend not to push B00bie's buttons, which I certainly did the day after the Houston loss. In my defense, I was hung over at work and making the best of it. If you think I've been fighting since then... you don't know 'bout me. Vaseline on meh face and pullin' out meh earrrangs, muthafukka.

I suppose you are right. It is Cleveland, so we are always going to want to debate and play the backup QB. I just feel like both of you guys have fair points. Hoyer may be serviceable with all his weapons, but we don't want to get stuck in a Dalton situation. We want to win the goddamn Super Bowl.

 

[Soda]

It shouldn't pain you, OJ. My track record here speaks for itself in regards to player evals.

Keys is absolutely right that we haven't seen Hoyer with all his weapons.

But that doesn't change what Hoyer is, it may invariably bail him out of looking bad at times. He's always just going to be Hoyer, you take the good with the bad and hope like hell he produces well enough to keep the job.

The last two weeks have been horrendous, as much as some would like to spin it.

Going to need to see Bengals game Hoyer, that guy or anything close can get this team to the playoffs.

Che? Do you have this track record you speak of? Or are you saying it because people won't actually do their homework and will just buy it?

Predicting that guys won't make it isn't a skill. It's finding those who will make it that differentiates fans from credible player evaluators.

 

[AZ_]

Che? Do you have this track record you speak of? Or are you saying it because people won't actually do their homework and will just buy it?

Predicting that guys won't make it isn't a skill. It's finding those who will make it that differentiates fans from credible player evaluators.

I've been more than willing to get into draft discussions during my time here. Predicting guys that will and won't make it, I've always given my reasoning one way or the other.

For every Brandon Weeden I've predicted will fail miserably, there has been an Odell Beckham, Brandin Cooks or Deone Buchanan who I'll bring up in October before they start skyrocketing to first round pick status and have great careers.

Never going to get them all, but I think more than a few can attest to it around here. I can say the same about some of them, and there's a reason this board is better than any others when it comes to the Browns discussion. This is one of them...