Kyrie Irving

[gourimoko]

Gouri, you know better than to dismiss a result simply because it tells you something you disagree with.

Indeed.. But I'm dismissing the result because I can't find any reasonable means of aggregation that would use anything more than (1) advanced statistic that would place those several individuals ahead of Kyrie Irving, again solely on the basis of statistical analysis.

Simply put, it makes no sense.

If we go solely based on RPM (which I think has limited use for perimeter players, but that's another story) then Kyrie still wouldn't be 9th, he'd be 8th. If we weigh ORPM higher than DRPM (which makes more statistical sense) then Kyrie would approach 6th.

IF we include other statistics like WAR, PER, OWS, ORtg, Drtg, etc then Kyrie would approach 4th.

Again, it's the apparent absence of statistical basis that bothers me about their rankings.

It's not at all baseless to conclude that John Wall is a better leader,

How do you measure that statistically?

play-maker, and defender than Kyrie.

Sure, he is a better play-maker and a better defender on average. But the degree to which he is better at those aspects does not outweigh Kyrie's all-around impact on both ends of the floor.

In essence, the impact of John Wall's 9.8 assists are accounted for in his ORPM, PER, OWS, and Win Shares, as are Kyrie's.

It is in fact, unscientific, to point to (cherrypick) this single box statistic and say "see, John Wall is better."

Instead, using the aggregate metrics, we see that Kyrie helps his team generate more wins and is more impactful (net) on the floor than John Wall.

They're being judged as point-guards, and in that context Irving shouldn't even be in the rankings as he's not even his own team's primary playmaker.

Kyrie averaged 6.2 assist/game prior to LeBron coming to Cleveland. Simply because he plays next to LeBron, and he's a scoring phenom, doesn't entail that he can't play his position.

He is the best ball-handler in the NBA, and has historically been slightly better than average at generating assists (13th among starting guards).

People wouldn't say that Deron Williams, Kemba Walker, Mike Conley, Tony Parker, Trey Burke, Damian Lillard, or Brandon Knight shouldn't be ranked. Kyrie generated more assists than all of those players, and still carries a higher assist ratio than all of those players.

So Jon, my point is that we're running into a bit of unscientific irrational bias when we discount Kyrie's assists simply to spite him for being a prolific scorer.

He is very much like an Allen Iverson who can do both, and quite well.

 

[gourimoko]

"Point Guard"

Yawn. That label is dead.

I agree. Pat Riley made some comments about these types of labels a few years back that made a great deal of sense.

It's an outdated term that doesn't really describe a great deal of successful players, teams, or systems in the modern NBA.

 

[Ohio]

I agree. Pat Riley made some comments about these types of labels a few years back that made a great deal of sense.

It's an outdated term that doesn't really describe a great deal of successful players, teams, or systems in the modern NBA.

There are guards, forwards, and a handful of centers. The days of the traditional Point Guard are long gone.

 

[DougHeil]

Okay; I just viewed this list of top point guards in the league with Kyrie at #9. I've got a question:

Straight up trades. Would we/Cavs trade Kyrie right now for any of these other point guards?

1. Chris Paul

2. Curry

3. Westbrook

4. John Wall, Washington Wizards

5. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies

6. Damian Lillard, Portland Trail Blazers

7. Kyle Lowry, Toronto Raptors

8. Tony Parker, San Antonio Spurs

Considering everything!! etc, contract status, age, ceiling, compatibility with Lebron, etc, etc, etc

...... I would NOT make any of those trades.... Period.

 

[Ohio]

Okay; I just viewed this list of top point guards in the league with Kyrie at #9. I've got a question:

Straight up trades. Would we/Cavs trade Kyrie right now for any of these other point guards?

1. Chris Paul

2. Curry

3. Westbrook

4. John Wall, Washington Wizards

5. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies

6. Damian Lillard, Portland Trail Blazers

7. Kyle Lowry, Toronto Raptors

8. Tony Parker, San Antonio Spurs

Considering everything!! etc, contract status, age, ceiling, compatibility with Lebron, etc, etc, etc

...... I want NOT make any of those trades.... Period.

This is easy; No.

 

[DougHeil]

This is easy; No.

Yeah,.. I want to know who voted for that BS list and what the heck they were voting on. My eyes is all I need for voting and for knowing there is no way I'd trade Kyrie for any of them.

 

[T C]

Okay; I just viewed this list of top point guards in the league with Kyrie at #9. I've got a question:

Straight up trades. Would we/Cavs trade Kyrie right now for any of these other point guards?

1. Chris Paul

2. Curry

3. Westbrook

4. John Wall, Washington Wizards

5. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies

6. Damian Lillard, Portland Trail Blazers

7. Kyle Lowry, Toronto Raptors

8. Tony Parker, San Antonio Spurs

Considering everything!! etc, contract status, age, ceiling, compatibility with Lebron, etc, etc, etc

...... I would NOT make any of those trades.... Period.

Straight up, I'd trade Kyrie for Curry.

 

[Flight479]

Straight up Curry. I like Westbrook's game too so I would at least listen to the call. That's it though.

 

[Jon]

He is very much like an Allen Iverson who can do both, and quite well.

Who had his most success as a pro the season when he was moved over to SG, Eric Snow (who was tall/strong enough to guard SGs) ran the point and the team was built to rebound his misses.

btw, it would be flawed to use RAPM to judge the value of a PG, because a good PG is supposed to make his teammates better - not visa-versa.

The biggest flaw with the report is that LeBron wasn't on the list. It's almost as big of a mistake as leaving Magic Johnson off a list of the All-Time greatest PGs just because he didn't typically guard the opposing point. The term PG does not mean "the shortest player on the court".

But hey, it's a poll of opinions. If you want to rank the players differently, go right ahead, but in my opinion I see little to take issue with. Kyrie was given the keys to the car and the car broke down. That's what I saw.

 

[Flight479]

The only thing about Westbrook that I prefer is his 120% intensity for the game and athleticism. I don't think he's a better scorer or ball-handler than Kyrie is.

I'll agree with ball handling period. Westbrook has been even better in the playoffs so I'd like to see how Kyrie does first before agreeing on scoring. I think he'll do fine but better... I'll wait and see

 

[Chris]

Not Paul, but only because of age. He's obviously better than Kyrie.

Curry and Westbrook I'd do.

Wall I'd do if we didn't have James. (EDIT: Well, I'd consider it. Not sure I'd do it. He's a better playmaker than Kyrie though)

 

[Jon]

Considering everything!! etc, contract status, age, ceiling, compatibility with Lebron, etc, etc, etc

Of course that's not what the poll was asking. I suppose you could even dismiss Curry because he's 4 years older than Irving, but other than that you'd think he'd fit very well on the Cavs.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Yeah I would probably make the Curry trade without thinking (already so good, great fit, only making $12 million a year).

I wouldn't trade him for Westbrook just because I think Kyrie is a much better fit on this team.

CP3 is obviously better than Kyrie but he's almost 30 so I would keep Kyrie instead.

And the rest of the point guards I wouldn't even consider.

 

[I'mWithDan]

Call me a homer but why would the Cavs trade Irving for Curry?

Kyrie just turned 23. He's 4 years younger than Steph.

Their career numbers are pretty much identical.

Steph made a big jump this season but unless you think KI's potential is tapped out, you ALWAYS take the player that is significantly younger (when they're both stars).

I concede Curry is a better player today but one can infer Kyrie at 27 (Steph's age) will be a better version of what he is now.....which would be as good if not better than Steph.

 

[Chris]

Call me a homer but why would the Cavs trade Irving for Curry?

Kyrie just turned 23. He's 4 years younger than Steph.

Their career numbers are pretty much identical.

Steph made a big jump this season but unless you think KI's potential is tapped out, you ALWAYS take the player that is significantly younger (when they're both stars).

I concede Curry is a better player today but one can infer Kyrie at 27 (Steph's age) will be a better version of what he is now.....which would be as good if not better than Steph.

Curry blows him away in playmaking. That's really the only reason for me. Do you think Irving will ever be the playmaker Curry is? We probably will never know as long as LBJ is here.