The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

[The Human Q-Tip]

All of his characters follow the same baseline goal, whatever it is for their character, until that course of action fails them.

I think that's generally true of most major characters in any story.

For one, none of the major power players are acting in a way that makes sense for their desires. Sure, Ramsay's claim to the North is a bit stronger with Sansa as a bride, but at what cost? Would the Bolton's be so quick to alienate themselves from both Stannis and the Lannisters, his one and only powerful ally backing his claim?

It was established in the books that the Boltons probably could not hold the North without the support of the Northern Lords. That's why they needed fake Arya -- Jeyne Poole -- so badly. I personally always thought the fake Arya plot was pretty dumb (too many lords would recognize it and their legitimacy would end), and there are other reasons I think the writers were right to jettison it. But in any case, the fact that the Boltons need a Stark to hold the North was established expressly in both the books and show.

As for Stannis and the Lannisters, Stannis is coming for him no matter what, so that's unavoidable.

With respect to the Lannisters, It was also established that the ability of southern lords to project power in the North was very limited. In fact, I don't think there's anything suggesting a southern army ever operated effectively in the North. Given that 1) Winter is coming and mobility will be dropping, 2) the problems the Lannisters are facing with the death of Tywin, and 3) the reality that Lord Kevan Lannister is extremely unlikely to send a Lannister army into the North, it's a pretty fair bet that the Lannisters aren't going to take any aggressive action to either help or hinder the Boltons. So essentially, the Boltons are on their own, which mean they need Sansa. Especially if they think they're own forces might not be strong enough to defeat Stannis. They need Sansa to rally northern help.

In any case, the Boltons might also think that they could argue their way around it if need be. They could say they need to hold the North, can't do it without Sansa, and that Tyrion was the guilty party anyway. Seems to be a better play than not having any Stark link at all. Or at least, it's a reasonable play, which is all the writers need.

And why would Littlefinger go through all the work to capture Sansa only to leave her at Winterfell, so he could make a claim on the North himself? There'd be many other ways to accomplish this without forfeiting such a powerful piece.

I agree it's a risk, but it's pretty brilliant if you consider Baelish's ultimate goals. We know he hates the Starks, and loved Cersei, and very likely loves Sansa. So a plausible dream scenario end-game for him would be to be Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, and married to Sansa. But that cannot happen as long as Roose Bolton is Warden of the North in Winterfell. So, he not only must get rid of the Boltons, but also gain title as Warden of the North. That can only come from the King, which in this case means Cersei.

So, what are the "many other ways" to get rid of the Boltons, be named "Warden of the North, and get Sansa? I just don't see other options that are significantly more plausible.

But most importantly, after all Sansa has been through and survived, after all the growth she has gone through, would she so absentmindedly walked into this situation without any preparedness?

I realize that debating how much growth Sansa has actually had is an extremely controversial topic with fans of that character, so I won't open that can of worms. Because I think the basic answer is that the other options she has suck as well.

What does she really have in the Eyrie? It's not her home, she has no legal claim at all, and what's her real future there? Be married off to some other guy she barely knows? Heck, KL is not that far away at all, and Cersei still wants her punished for Joffrey's murder. Getting as far away from the long arm of Queen Cersei is something that should be pretty high on Sansa's prioriiy list.

Winterfell? Well, it's a place to which she actually has title, which is an independent source of power for her. And, it puts her among Northernors, people who are far more likely to protect her from the long arm of the Lannisters, which probably can't even reach her in the North at all.

Now, it has the very distasteful requirement that she marry a Bolton, but LF is promising her that it will work out. Maybe she shouldn't trust him, but the reality is that from her perspective, she's even more dependent on LF's good intentions when she's in the Eyrie. If LF is he's a rat, he'd just screw her over in the Eyrie anyway.

Also, she really doesn't have any idea that Ramsay is as bad as he really is. She may think she'd be given a certain amount of freedom around the castle and grounds, etc. and if she ever decided to flee, she'd much rather have to fend for herself amongst a generally friendly population in lands she knows rather than wandering the Riverlands or Vale with no friends.

I'm sure there are countervailing arguments, but I don't think the choices made are so unreasonable as to preclude what happened as a plausible plot change.

I'll address the other stuff separately because I think it goes beyond the pure plot-related points just discussed.

 

[theSTEREO.]

On a different note, I had heard the theory that Arthur Dayne might be alive.

Hadn't heard this one yet, and it's not totally ridiculous:

Dawn is Lightbringer.

Give it a listen.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXFKmw3iNio&feature=youtu.be

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I tried listening, but....

Elio is a nice guy, but his written thoughts are much better organized than his verbal ones. Plus, I can't edit my last post because the video window covers up the "save changes" button.

Grrrrrr.....

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

First, I want to thank you for your well thought-out post. I just disagree.

Sansa should be evolving along the lines of Petyr Baelish, or becoming the next Olenna Martell.

I've seen this argued a lot, and my question is: Why?

Why is that the only acceptable character arc for Sansa? LF and the QOT were consistently portrayed as two of the most intelligent characters in all Westeros. Perhaps Varys and Tyrion are the only ones at that same level. And they're all at least 10 years older than Sansa. Sansa, in contrast, has not consistently been portrayed as being anything close to them in intellect. I'm not saying she's stupid, but is it really fair to say that her intelligence has been portrayed as so exceptional that she should be capable of playing the GOT at that level?

In any case, this argument essentially is based on fans of her character predicting what "should" happen to her. As much as I think the facts don't really support it, it still would be unusual for Martin to telegraph character development that clearly, so as to make any alterations in that arc unacceptable.

--She is learning how to read people, how to keep them guessing, and position herself in a place of power. This scene served Sansa nothing but to strip her of 4 previous seasons of development.

I don't see how. It was something that was done to her without her consent, such that she could not possibly resist. How is that any comment at all on her character? Isn't that the ultimate blaming the victim? And to take it a bit further, I don't see how any of the things you've said about her character are affected at all just because she was raped.

Dorne is a mess, and they should have stuck with the original script (or, if unable to do this, scrapped it altogether). This Jaime storyline and the half-assed attempt at the sand snakes serves no good purpose. Also, turning the most progressive government in Dorne into a simple patriarchy is just lazy. Considering a few of the last words Oberyn said before his death are "In Dorne, we don't hurt little girls!" it seems an odd choice for his daughters to plot the death of a teenage Myrcella.

I agree with a lot of this, but I think a lot of books 4 and 5 were pretty crappy. It's obviously all a matter of opinion/taste, but I personally was bored to death by the entire Dorne storyline. I also thought Sansa's Eyrie subplot was boring as hell as it seems a complete backwater to everything else that is going on. I got tired of the ironborn stuff, and the same with Danaerys in Essos. Yuck. And the idea of seeing Brienne stumble around the riverlands, and Jaime doing essentially nothing, was pretty crappy source material as well.

As for "In Dorne, we don't hurt little girls", it's pretty clear that Oberyn was romanticizing his own people. After all, Darkstar flatly attempted to kill Myrcella in the books, so they apparently do kill little girls in Dorne. Or at least try to.

I just get the sense that so much of this show's reception was built off of trusting the audience to be smart enough to follow the intrigue and twisting plots, but here in the 5th season there's some rush to dumb it all down and streamline the process. I'm not sure who that serves, but it's no longer doing great justice to the novels.

I agree, but I also thank the Old Gods for that.

In my opinion, the overall book story has sprawled way out of control, which led to AFFC and ADWD not (generally) being as well-received as the first three books. There are way too many subplots, locations, and goings-on that really don't seem to be going anywhere. For narrative purposes alone, it needed to be tightened up.

More importantly, though, the show is going 7 seasons. But the writers have burned through 4 seasons while only covering three books. And it's possible that the last book is going to be split into two, meaning that show has only 24 episodes left to cover all that remains of AFFC and ADWD, plus the remaining two (or possibly three) novels to come. They have to start consolidating characters, storylines, and locations, or they're just not going to make it. And if they want to give the major characters enough screentime, they had to start having more of the major characters interact with each other rather than with minor characters.

They've done a ton of that. They dropped the Ironborn. They sent Jaime and Bronn down to Dorne so they could keep those characters active while still hitting that part of the plot, and dropping the other subplots involving them. No Stoneheart. They sent Brienne and Sansa up to Winterfell. All those things taken together drop both the Eyrie and the Riverlands out, and further consolidates storylines. No Sam going to Oldtown, no Davos going to White Harbor, etc.. Sansa is far from the only character to have her storyline moved to a different location than in the books.

And that's why I just don't agree that the whole rape was done simply for the purpose of advancing Theon's character arc. If that's all they wanted, why not keep Jeyne? It's pretty clear that the writers are advancing Sansa's arc closer to the main action in the North because they need to consolidate storylines, and what is happening at Winterfell is probably a lot more central to the ultimate main plot threads than whatever happens at the Eyrie

But it could certainly have been handled much better; main characters need to act with their own agency, they shouldn't be marginalized as a plot device.

What does that actually mean? I truly do not understand. The reality for Sansa is that she is a teenage girl who is a prisoner in a violent world dominated by the physical strength of men. Of course she is going to have comparatively little freedom of action and be subject to bullying.

Truly exceptional women have a chance to make a mark, but in general, the deck is stacked greatly against them, and the average noble woman simply does not have the same opportunity as her male brethren to affect world events.

 

[MalTalm]

First, I want to thank you for your well thought-out post. I just disagree.



I've seen this argued a lot, and my question is: Why?

Why is that the only acceptable character arc for Sansa? LF and the QOT were consistently portrayed as two of the most intelligent characters in all Westeros. Perhaps Varys and Tyrion are the only ones at that same level. And they're all at least 10 years older than Sansa. Sansa, in contrast, has not consistently been portrayed as being anything close to them in intellect. I'm not saying she's stupid, but is it really fair to say that her intelligence has been portrayed as so exceptional that she should be capable of playing the GOT at that level?

In any case, this argument essentially is based on fans of her character predicting what "should" happen to her. As much as I think the facts don't really support it, it still would be unusual for Martin to telegraph character development that clearly, so as to make any alterations in that arc unacceptable.



I don't see how. It was something that was done to her without her consent, such that she could not possibly resist. How is that any comment at all on her character? Isn't that the ultimate blaming the victim? And to take it a bit further, I don't see how any of the things you've said about her character are affected at all just because she was raped.



I agree with a lot of this, but I think a lot of books 4 and 5 were pretty crappy. It's obviously all a matter of opinion/taste, but I personally was bored to death by the entire Dorne storyline. I also thought Sansa's Eyrie subplot was boring as hell as it seems a complete backwater to everything else that is going on. I got tired of the ironborn stuff, and the same with Danaerys in Essos. Yuck. And the idea of seeing Brienne stumble around the riverlands, and Jaime doing essentially nothing, was pretty crappy source material as well.

As for "In Dorne, we don't hurt little girls", it's pretty clear that Oberyn was romanticizing his own people. After all, Darkstar flatly attempted to kill Myrcella in the books, so they apparently do kill little girls in Dorne. Or at least try to.



I agree, but I also thank the Old Gods for that.

In my opinion, the overall book story has sprawled way out of control, which led to AFFC and ADWD not (generally) being as well-received as the first three books. There are way too many subplots, locations, and goings-on that really don't seem to be going anywhere. For narrative purposes alone, it needed to be tightened up.

More importantly, though, the show is going 7 seasons. But the writers have burned through 4 seasons while only covering three books. And it's possible that the last book is going to be split into two, meaning that show has only 24 episodes left to cover all that remains of AFFC and ADWD, plus the remaining two (or possibly three) novels to come. They have to start consolidating characters, storylines, and locations, or they're just not going to make it. And if they want to give the major characters enough screentime, they had to start having more of the major characters interact with each other rather than with minor characters.

They've done a ton of that. They dropped the Ironborn. They sent Jaime and Bronn down to Dorne so they could keep those characters active while still hitting that part of the plot, and dropping the other subplots involving them. No Stoneheart. They sent Brienne and Sansa up to Winterfell. All those things taken together drop both the Eyrie and the Riverlands out, and further consolidates storylines. No Sam going to Oldtown, no Davos going to White Harbor, etc.. Sansa is far from the only character to have her storyline moved to a different location than in the books.

And that's why I just don't agree that the whole rape was done simply for the purpose of advancing Theon's character arc. If that's all they wanted, why not keep Jeyne? It's pretty clear that the writers are advancing Sansa's arc closer to the main action in the North because they need to consolidate storylines, and what is happening at Winterfell is probably a lot more central to the ultimate main plot threads than whatever happens at the Eyrie



What does that actually mean? I truly do not understand. The reality for Sansa is that she is a teenage girl who is a prisoner in a violent world dominated by the physical strength of men. Of course she is going to have comparatively little freedom of action and be subject to bullying.

Truly exceptional women have a chance to make a mark, but in general, the deck is stacked greatly against them, and the average noble woman simply does not have the same opportunity as her male brethren to affect world events.

Placeholder: I'll get to this tomorrow!

 

[Chris]

This is easily the weakest season of Game of Thrones yet, IMO.

It's not that I'm not enjoying it. I certainly am. But the Faith plot is clearly, now that only three episodes (!!!) are left in this season, the center plot of this season and while somewhat interesting I just don't think it holds up like some of the stuff we've had in past years.

Furthermore, some of this stuff is just lazy. I couldn't help but laugh at the "great games!" being held in Meereen, which Dany was to bear witness to. We arrive at it and it literally looks like some setup in a guy's backyard. Yet the scene still could have been great had they taken advantage of it and unleashed Jorah, given us some decent action in a season basically devoid of it. Instead, we get Jorah hitting a few guys over the head with his helmet and punching them, and an uneventful, "Hi my name is Tyrion Lannister" line. Sweet...I guess.

Winterfell stuff is fine, I suppose. Oh, look, more people got flayed. Ramsay is a bad bad person. Status quo, but at least somewhat interesting.

Hey, the Bronn poison theory was correct, and I was also correct in saying he wasn't going to die like that. Instead, they used it for...one of the weirdest scenes of the show yet. Unless there is more to come from that...pretty useless.

Sounds like I hated the episode, but I didn't. Just pretty underwhelmed with the season as a whole. I know it goes without saying but Winds of Winter really, really, REALLY needs to come out before Season 6.

 

[Jack Brickman]

That Sand Snake had a surprisingly nice rack, though.

 

[kosis]

Love that they kept the Aemon ranting about Egg for his death. That pleasantly surprised me. Also never been happier for someone getting laid on screen than I was for Sam...

Yeah, Tyene...

Really love QoT and how she was going toe to toe with High Sparrow. Good stuff with Marge and Cersei too. Lot of below the radar great stuff, just not as exciting per se as other stuff in the series.

 

[Sebastian]

Observations:

1) Jonathan Pryce is great. "What will we find when we strip away your finery?"
2) Diana Rigg is fantastic. QoT don't give two shits.
3) Not Shireen. Who will teach Westeros to read?
4) Glad to see the tits. The Quota had to be filled. Only positive thing about the Dorne plot this season beyond seeing Jerome Flynn sing.
5) "Egg, I dreamt I was an old person."
6) Do we get to see Salladhor Saan, Sex Pirate, next week?
7) Jorah kicking ass is a nice change of pace.
8) I would love to see Davos cut off Selyse's head at some point this season.

 

[CardiacCavs]

I loved this episode. Finally got to see tyrion meet Dany. I'm really eager to see what happens with that.

Totally believable that theon would snitch.

I wonder if the general viewer finds the high sparrow a sympathetic figure and are rooting for him. "You are the few, we are the many" #occupyWesteros

And that was a top shelf pair of tits. Almost made the Dorne plot worthwhile.

 

[Chris]

I actually think she's pretty hot as a whole. Too bad we only saw her tatties.

 

[Rich]

Last ten minutes was great. I've watched it three times now. Seeing Cersei go from being so proud of herself to thrown in the cell was just top notch stuff.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Last ten minutes was great. I've watched it three times now. Seeing Cersei go from being so proud of herself to thrown in the cell was just top notch stuff.

Just as satisfying as it was in the books.

 

[Rich]

Like everyone else, there are things I'm not pleased with. Euron was my favorite character, so him being removed pisses me off. The Dorne story line is flailing.

But I'm more than pleased that they've sped up Sansa and Tyrion's story line. George, at this point, still has Sansa doing absolutely nothing and Tyrion is sprawling here and there. This is better, in my opinion.

 

[Chris]

One thing I did catch last night was a throwback to when Stannis witnessed a "great battle in the snow." He said that IIRC last season? Or was it back in Season 3?

I remember bringing it up because I thought it was cool they were foreshadowing the battle at Winterfell so early, but we decided it was probably the battle at the Wall he was talking about. Looks like it may have been the former after all although I guess it still could be either one.

I think that's what I'm most curious about is where Stannis is going. I expected him to be much more vehement in rejecting Melisandre's proposal to sacrifice Shireen...I fear that that is honestly going to happen. Ugh.