So Long, Mo Gotti Williams

[spydy13]

But Delly isn't really running the point during the playoffs when he comes in though. He's averaging 4.4asts/2.4tov with 3.9pf per/36 with an ast% of 19.9%.. That's... not running the point. He's basically playing off-guard next to LeBron James, and since he's a legitimate 3-point threat, you have to guard him.

So to me, a backup backcourt of Williams and Delly doesn't really change Delly's role, but it does allow James to sit with Irving.

He's shown throughout the year that he can run the offense just fine. When he was out there was pretty much the only time we would actually run Blatt's offense. Sure he's not going to break guys down off the dribble like LeBron, Kyrie, or even Mo, but don't act like he can't run the offense.

 

[gourimoko]

He's shown throughout the year that he can run the offense just fine.

No he hasn't. This is hindsight bias.

When he was out there was pretty much the only time we would actually run Blatt's offense.

Really not going to get into Blatt's offense because it is so rare that we run it that it's somewhat irrelevant.

I do not think we'll see any of that offense next season.

Sure he's not going to break guys down off the dribble like LeBron, Kyrie, or even Mo, but don't act like he can't run the offense.

I'm not acting like anything bro, I just posted his stats.

The offense we do run 90% of the time is mostly driven by (not necessarily ending in) isolation, PnR and drive and kicks almost all predicated on LeBron and Kyrie... Mo Williams can fit right in with that.

Now Delly did average 5.6 assists last month, in limited minutes, and that's great! But the question is, can that be sustained?

He wouldn't be the first player to show flashes of something and then regress; it happens all the time.

I just think it's important people don't forget how desperate we were for a backup point guard for the majority of the season. Delly can still get his, just not playing the primary point off the bench.

 

[spydy13]

Really not going to get into Blatt's offense because it is so rare that we run it that it's somewhat irrelevant.

I do not think we'll see any of that offense next season.

We never see it because LeBron and Kyrie were more used to playing iso/PnR/drive and kick ball, and after a certain point he just gave up trying to force them to play it. But when Delly came in, and was running the offense, he was always running plays from Blatt's offense.

I also think it's more likely that we see even more of it next year because we don't have to try to build a team in training camp. We have a year of chemistry that will allow us to take our game to new heights.

The offense we do run 90% of the time is mostly driven by (not necessarily ending in) isolation, PnR and drive and kicks almost all predicated on LeBron and Kyrie... Mo Williams can fit right in with that.

I agree with that, and as I said I would have no problem bringing in Mo.

I just think it's important people don't forget how desperate we were for a backup point guard for the majority of the season. Delly can still get his, just not playing the primary point off the bench.

I agree that we were desperate, especially when Delly got hurt and went into a major tailspin shooting wise. But as @Randolphkeys I believe pointed out in the Delly thread, the things he does, mainly playing tenacious defense, have become a lot clearer to people in the playoffs.

It's no mistake that are two best 5-man lineups during the regular season (+60.1, and +45.1 compared to +20.7 for our starters) and 3 highest in the postseason (+32.1, +29.2, and +27.5 compared to +18.6 for our original starters w/love and +7.7 for the group with TT and Shump stepping in) (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015/lineups/) feature Delly with no Kyrie or Love because we can truly get after it on the defensive side of the ball while LeBron can drive and kick to three capable shooters.

I agree with you that we need to bring in another vet to protect against possible regression from Delly (although I think he's only going to get better now that he has this confidence) or injury to either guys, but I respectfully disagree with the idea that Delly isn't going to be the primary point guard off the bench.

 

[mds]

I'd love to have Mo back. Love that guy, he can play, and as has been stated we can't rely on Irving's health or Delly to be the only PG. Mo can handle the ball, shoot, and perhaps Lebron owes him one...

 

[Homestar]

I like Mo. A lot.

But I think we need defense more than offense at the backup PG position. Ideally, you have both. But when your payroll is at 100M, your options are limited.

My heart wants Mo, but my head prefers Norris Cole.

 

[cavsfever]

If there's any chance of getting Patty Mills, I would much rather have him than Mo. Younger, higher ceiling, more elite offensive talent I think.

 

[spydy13]

If there's any chance of getting Patty Mills, I would much rather have him than Mo. Younger, higher ceiling, more elite offensive talent I think.

Actually contributed to a winning team in pressure situations...

 

[Cavatt]

No he hasn't. This is hindsight bias.



Really not going to get into Blatt's offense because it is so rare that we run it that it's somewhat irrelevant.

I do not think we'll see any of that offense next season.



I'm not acting like anything bro, I just posted his stats.

The offense we do run 90% of the time is mostly driven by (not necessarily ending in) isolation, PnR and drive and kicks almost all predicated on LeBron and Kyrie... Mo Williams can fit right in with that.

Now Delly did average 5.6 assists last month, in limited minutes, and that's great! But the question is, can that be sustained?

He wouldn't be the first player to show flashes of something and then regress; it happens all the time.

I just think it's important people don't forget how desperate we were for a backup point guard for the majority of the season. Delly can still get his, just not playing the primary point off the bench.

He is a sophomore player that was targetted by the championship team because he was kicking their ass. Are you surprised at how hard he was attacked once Lebron was the only threat on the floor. The criticism here is ridiculous. He was the only one who ran the offense all year.

 

[gourimoko]

He is a sophomore player that was targetted by the championship team because he was kicking their ass.

Defensively.

My post was about offense. Not his defense. He wasn't kicking anybodies ass offensively.

He was averaging 10.4ppg/3.8apg/3.0rpg with 2.5tov and 3.8pf in @ 36mpg.

His efficiency was abysmal, at .346 FG%, .316 3pt%, and a TS% of .476; throughout the playoffs he carried an ORtg of 95. In context, the other two guards in the backcourt, Shumpert and Smith, had 109 and 110 ORtg ratings, respectively.

That's not what we want out of a backup point guard.

So yes, he was great defensively, but not offensively. Offensively, he was a liability, and that's why Blatt chose to switch to Shumpert to try and get something going.

Are you surprised at how hard he was attacked once Lebron was the only threat on the floor.

Are you serious?

The criticism here is ridiculous.

The criticism is based on facts, reasoned analysis and statistics. Why is it so hard to have a rational, empirical conversation about this?

If anything, your retort is "ridiculous" as it's not based or founded on anything.

He was the only one who ran the offense all year.

And that's nonsense considering the "offense" was scrapped, because according to the coach "it didn't work." Whether or not Dellavedova ran it or not is irrelevant if it didn't produce results.

 

[MirORich]

Amazed at @gourimokos ability to take that one small paragraph by @Cavatt and stretch it into an epic multi quote response. Shows the type of playmaker Guor is!

I actually agree with you both.

I do think Delly is getting criticized a bit harshly given the circumstances he was thrown into. I do also think he can continue to improve.

However, at this point I think he's best for us as a situational matchup/flow of the game type player at both PG/SG, not as our primary backup PG(especially given Kyries injury history). So I absolutely agree with Gour that we need to find a strong backup PG option who is more of a threat offensively and more of a playmaker, who can either be out primary back up PG or a mix and match option with Delly. Coming back with just Delly as the lone back up PG next year would be a failure by the FO in my eyes.

 

[gourimoko]

Amazed at @gourimokos ability to take that one small paragraph by @Cavatt and stretch it into a multi quote response. Shows the type of playmaker Guor is!

Indeed..

I actually agree with you both.

I do think Delly is getting criticized a bit harshly given the circumstances he was thrown into. I do also think he can continue to improve.

I don't mean to sound harsh or overly critical. I do not want Shump, Delly, or Mozgov traded. Those 3 guys I think are worth the fair value price their likely to get; especially if locked in over 4 years. I think all 3 will be exceptional players in their own right in 2-3 years.

But to say that Delly was killing it, offensively, is just, well, fantasy. At present, he's a defensive specialist, and offensively a below-average combo-guard. In saying that, I want him on this team for his grit, heart, courage, and ability to defend!

However, at this point I think he's best for us as a situational matchup/flow of the game type player for us at both PG/SG, not as our primary backup PG(especially given Kyries injury history). So I absolutely agree with Gour that we need to find a strong backup PG option who is more of a threat offensively and more of a playmaker, who can either be out primary back up PG or a mix and match option with Delly. Coming back with just Delly as the lone back up PG next year would be a failure by the FO in my eyes.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Cavatt]

I don't think he was killing it offensively, but you could tell that the offense ran better with him on the floor most of the season. He is great paired with Kyrie or Dion. Everyone is making jokes at Dion's expense right now, but that would have been a guy that would have been valuable against Golden State. Yes neither JR or Shump can create offense very well, and we knew that going in. No Dion didn't do it consistently, but he played his best ball with Delly.

What we need is a combo guard that can create a little and shoot a little and then Delly is good backup pg. Mo Williams is a good choice. A guy like Jordan Crawford would be a good fit. Delly is best when paired with another offensively tilted guard or a Lebron. Him running the 2nd unit isn't going to work great when there aren't any offensive players on the floor. That was our problem in the finals. Our one other offensive weapon was guarded by Klay the whole time and resulted in a stalemate at sg.

How is a pg suppose to operate with a bunch of guys who are primarily defenders? It is such a silly criticism. No Delly is not a great offensive player, but he can help you generate points if there is a guy out there with the ability to score points.

We relied all year on 3 guys to generate a huge portion of our offense. It isn't crazy that the offense stalled out once we faced an equally good defensive team and lacked 2 of those guys.

I'm all in for a combo guard, but saying Delly can't orchestrate the offense when he clearly outplayed every backup in the playoffs minus maybe Shaun Livingston(who I would have loved to hang onto).

I don't believe Shump played Curry to get more offense, because Shump isn't an offensive player either and didn't have a single game as good as Delly's game 3. Delly played so few minutes because he was hurt after his visit to the hospital. His D was never as good after the first 3 games. I think rumors of his strained hammy were accurate.

 

[gourimoko]

I don't think he was killing it offensively, but you could tell that the offense ran better with him on the floor most of the season.

No it didn't. This premise is demonstrably false, Cavatt.

The offense did not run better with Delly than it did with either James or Irving initiating the offense.

He is great paired with Kyrie or Dion.

What?

Everyone is making jokes at Dion's expense right now, but that would have been a guy that would have been valuable against Golden State. Yes neither JR or Shump can create offense very well, and we knew that going in. No Dion didn't do it consistently, but he played his best ball with Delly.

We wouldn't have made it to the Finals if we had Dion Waiters on the team instead of Shump and Smith.

What we need is a combo guard that can create a little and shoot a little and then Delly is good backup pg.

Delly is not a good backup point guard.

Mo Williams is a good choice. A guy like Jordan Crawford would be a good fit. Delly is best when paired with another offensively tilted guard or a Lebron. Him running the 2nd unit isn't going to work great when there aren't any offensive players on the floor. That was our problem in the finals. Our one other offensive weapon was guarded by Klay the whole time and resulted in a stalemate at sg.

You wouldn't run the offense through Delly with Williams or Crawford on the floor next to him because those guys are (1) better point guards, (2) better facilitators, (3) better passers, (4) better isolation players, (5) better ball handlers, (6) better shooters when contested.

Defensively, Delly should pick up the opposing ball handler; and that in itself is very valuable.

How is a pg suppose to operate with a bunch of guys who are primarily defenders? It is such a silly criticism.

It's not silly criticism. Delly is not a point-guard, and you keep acting/assuming that he is one, or can play the position well. He can't. It should be obvious, and if it isn't I refer you to his statistical performance.

No Delly is not a great offensive player, but he can help you generate points if there is a guy out there with the ability to score points.

No he doesn't. He's not a good facilitator.

We relied all year on 3 guys to generate a huge portion of our offense. It isn't crazy that the offense stalled out once we faced an equally good defensive team and lacked 2 of those guys.

No it isn't crazy, and I understand what you're getting at, but just because Delly would look better in a motion, read-react, offense doesn't mean that he'd look better than the average basketball player.

I'm all in for a combo guard, but saying Delly can't orchestrate the offense when he clearly outplayed every backup in the playoffs minus maybe Shaun Livingston(who I would have loved to hang onto).

What? Again, with respect to "the offense," this is also absurdly false.

I don't believe Shump played Curry to get more offense, because Shump isn't an offensive player either and didn't have a single game as good as Delly's game 3.

Using one game, an outlier, a career game, to make your point, demonstrates the weakness of that point.

Delly played so few minutes because he was hurt after his visit to the hospital. His D was never as good after the first 3 games. I think rumors of his strained hammy were accurate.

...Not knocking his defense, we're talking about his offense. I think you are conflating the two.

If you respond, could you include some statistical evidence to backup your claims?

 

[Cratylus]

Amazed at @gourimokos ability to take that one small paragraph by @Cavatt and stretch it into an epic multi quote response. Shows the type of windbag Guor is!

I corrected the misspelled word for you.

 

[gratefuldead]

I belive we could have beat the warriors w mo

He can run the offense, create, attack w floater (the mo-flo) and hit 3s