The Case for 2009 LeBron As the GOAT Peak

[All4One1ForAll]

We all remember that ill-fated season. Our Cleveland Cavaliers had just won 66 games, good enough for 1st in the Eastern Conference and best in the league. It looked like Cleveland might finally be able to get the taste of a championship again, and we also might get to see that ever-so-appealing Kobe vs. LeBron Finals. However, as we all know, the Cavs unfortunately fell to the Orlando Magic in the ECF, a combination of Mike Brown getting outcoached and our role players failing to match up with those on the Magic, including Turkoglu, Lewis, and Pietrus. But I don't think the end result should force us to overlook just how spectacular LeBron was that season. In fact, I would argue that 2008-09 LeBron was the greatest peak of any player in NBA history - ahead of 1991 Jordan, 2000 Shaq, 1977 Kareem, etc. And here's my reasoning, along with a comparison of LeBron's 2009 season to Jordan's 1991 season, which I believe to be the second greatest peak of all time, in order to put in perspective how great LeBron was that year.

STATISTICAL COMPARISON:

Michael Jordan (1990-91)

Regular Season:
31.5 PPG / 5.5 APG / 6.0 RPG / 60.5% TS / 31.6 PER / .321 WS/48 / 10.8 BPM / 9.8 VORP / +23 Net Off-Def Rating / 5.0 RAPM (4th in the league)*

Postseason:
31.1 PPG / 8.4 APG / 6.4 RPG / 60.0% TS / 32.0 PER / .333 WS/48 / 13.8 BPM / 2.8 VORP / +26 Net Off-Def Rating


LeBron James (2008-09)

Regular Season:
28.4 PPG / 7.2 APG / 7.6 RPG / 59.1% TS / 31.7 PER / .318 WS/48 / 13.0 BPM / 11.6 VORP / +19 Net Off-Def Rating / 11.3 RAPM (1st in the league)*

Postseason:
35.3 PPG / 7.6 APG / 9.1 RPG / 61.8% TS / 37.4 PER / .399 WS/48 / 18.2 BPM / 2.9 VORP / +28 Net Off-Def Rating

*I provided both MJ's and LeBron's respective places in the league regarding their rankings in RAPM because technically they weren't calculated using the same formulas, seeing that RAPM wasn't a calculable stat at the time, so their ranking should at least help give some perspective as you can't really compare the pure numbers to one another.


TEAM SUCCESS:

LeBron James led the Cavs to a 66 win season (+8.68 SRS) in 2009 while Michael Jordan led his Bulls to 61 wins (+8.51 SRS) in 1991. It is true that the Cavs ended up losing in the Eastern Conference Finals to the Magic while Jordan's Bulls went on to win the title that year, which might lead to some people immediately dismissing LeBron's case in this comparison. However, let me point out that I could have simply used LeBron's 2013 season, in which he went on to win the title, if it was absolutely necessary for one to win the championship in order to claim the GOAT peak honor for a single season. I chose LeBron's 2009 season for a reason and that's because I think he was simply the most dominant, impactful player he had ever been in his career, despite the fact that he didn't win the title. In my opinion it's silly to ignore context (in this case, the fact that the second option on LeBron's team was Mo Williams and his coach was Mike Brown compared to Jordan whose Robin was a top 50 player of all time and whose coach was arguably the greatest NBA coach ever). If you just look at LeBron's postseason numbers (especially in the Orlando series), as well as his advanced stats, you can see that he did all he could to carry his team past Orlando, averaging 39/8/8 in the series while shooting on an efficient 59% TS. He shouldn't be faulted just because his teammates weren't good enough. We're evaluating him based on his individual play here, so it doesn't make sense to pretend like there aren't 4 other players out their on the floor with their own responsibilities.


Skillset Comparison:

At their peaks, Jordan was a better and slightly more efficient scorer while LeBron was a superior facilitator and rebounder. Despite Jordan's advantages in the steals department (they're about even in blocks), according to their advanced defensive stats, LeBron was more impactful on that end. Below, I included an analysis of LeBron's defensive impact in 2009, which I stole from this RealGM thread (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1241582) and edited slightly. It's pretty in depth and goes to show how dominant he was on that side of the floor, despite having to shoulder such a heavy load on the offensive side of the ball, considering how offensively challenged a good portion of that Cavs team was.

Analysis of LeBron's Defense (2009):

On court: 100.6 D rating (-7.7 relative to league average)
Off court: 108.8 D rating (+0.5 rel to LA)
Difference: -8.2 (According to BasketballValue.com, that difference is the 2nd highest in the league behind Pryzbilla)

The Cavs went from #1 D in the league with LeBron on the court to the equivalent of 18th when he left.

6.5 Defensive win shares (#2 in the league, only SF with more in a season are Pippen and Havlicek)

10.4 opponent counterpart PER according to 82games (equivalent to that of E'Twaun Moore and Austin Rivers this year)
82games also has opponent SF scoring 12.8 pts/36 and .525 TS% vs LeBron while opposing PF scored 13.3 pts/36 and .484 TS% when LeBron played PF.

Top 5 in on court defensive rating in 2009 (min. 2000 MP):
1. West: 99.2
2. LeBron 100.6
3. Odom 101.4
4. Turkoglu 101.4
5. Howard 101.8

LeBron is also 3rd in FG%, 4th in 3P%, and 3rd in eFG%.

Here is what some of the top SF of 2009 did vs LeBron offensively (their regular season per 36 in parenthesis)

Durant- 16.4 PPG, .518 TS% (23.3 PPG, .577 TS%)
Pierce- 18.1 PPG, .474 TS% (19.7 PPG, .582 TS%)
Johnson- 13.7 PPG, .475 TS% (19.5 PPG, .534 TS%)
Carmelo- 15.8 PPG, .488 TS% (23.8 PPG, .532 TS%)
Butler- 14.2 PPG, .438 TS% (19.4 PPG, .552 TS%)
Gay- 10.9 PPG, .357 TS% (18.3 PPG, .528 TS%)
Average dropoff: -5.8 PPG, -9.3 TS%

What’s amazing is that when faced Cleveland and LeBron was off the court, they dominated:

The 6 SF’s stats when (Per 36):
LeBron on court: 15.1 PPG, .461 TS%, 3.3 Reb, 3.6 AST-3.4 TOV, -9.4 +/-
LeBron off court: 24.6 PPG, .596 TS%, 5.9 Reb, 2.3 AST-1.8 TOV, +0.9 +/-

That is a 9.5 points per 36 and 13.5 TS% difference. In the playoffs, LeBron continued playing elite man defense. Here are how some of his guys did when LeBron was on the court (per 36 minutes):

Tayshaun Prince: 3.9 PPG, .260 TS%
Joe Johnson: 15.3 PPG, .480 TS%
Marvin Williams: 5.8 PPG, .337 TS%
Dropoff from regular season averages: -7.6 PPG, -18.1 TS%

Defensive stats from Hoopsstats.com for his position:
17.3 pts/game allowed (1st in league) (13.2 points per 36 minutes)
41.2 FG% allowed (1st)
15.1 FGA allowed (2nd fewest)
16.6 Efficiency allowed (1st)
1.3 Offensive rebounds allowed (3rd)

+2.8 Defensive RAPM [2nd among qualifying perimeter players (Artest)]

All in all, I personally would take peak LeBron over peak Jordan, and I believe during the 2008-09 season he was truly the overall best, most dominant version of any player the game had ever seen. From a career standpoint, LeBron is still multiple titles and a myriad of accolades and achievements away from catching Jordan - though we must remember he's still only 30 years old, and it would be silly to pretend that LeBron can't still eventually claim the title of the Greatest of All Time (which encompasses one's entire career) - but if we're simply analyzing absolute peaks, I don't think there was ever one greater than LeBron James in 2009.

 

[cavsfever]

I agree about Lebron's 2009 year, especially the post-season. It's just sad that he didn't have the teammates or the coach to win a championship that year, since I think he totally deserved one. No one could say that he didn't play well against the Magic or it was in any way his fault that we lost.

Check out our roster that year.

Besides Lebron, that team had maybe two other guys who were starter quality players -- Mo Williams, and maybe Z for a team that needed an immobile center who could pick and pop. AV, West and Wallace would all have been good defensive/hustle role players off the bench for a playoff team. Everyone else on the roster -- end of bench filler at best, or maybe didn't belong in the NBA at all. And that's not even getting to Coach Brown and the stellar job he did up against Van Gundy and the Magic...


Roster
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No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
1 Daniel Gibson PG 6-2 190 February 27, 1986 2 University of Texas at Austin
21 J.J. Hickson C 6-9 242 September 4, 1988 R North Carolina State University
11 Zydrunas Ilgauskas C 7-3 238 June 5, 1975 10
00 Darnell Jackson PF 6-9 253 November 7, 1985 R University of Kansas
23 LeBron James SF 6-8 240 December 30, 1984 5
24 Trey Johnson SG 6-5 218 August 30, 1984 R Jackson State University
8 Tarence Kinsey SG 6-6 185 March 21, 1984 2 University of South Carolina
3 Sasha Pavlovic SF 6-8 220 November 15, 1983 5
32 Joe Smith C 6-10 225 July 26, 1975 13 University of Maryland
10 Wally Szczerbiak SF 6-7 244 March 5, 1977 9 Miami University
17 Anderson Varejao PF 6-10 230 September 28, 1982 4
4 Ben Wallace PF 6-9 240 September 10, 1974 12 Virginia Union University
13 Delonte West SG 6-4 180 July 26, 1983 4 Saint Joseph's University
31 Jawad Williams SF 6-9 218 February 19, 1983 R University of North Carolina
2 Mo Williams PG 6-1 185 December 19, 1982 5 University of Alabama
55 Lorenzen Wright C 6-11 225 November 4, 1975 12 University of Memphis

 

[JS33]

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

 

[The Oi]

Buttermilk for GOAT goat.

 

[shoes22]

Pretty sure LeBron's physical peak was the 2012-2013 season.

 

[gourimoko]

Don't take this as me knocking your post, as I do I think it's an interesting question, but I also I think the flaw in the argument is that you didn't provide enough analysis to sway the argument one way or another.

I don't think the statistics at hand show enough of a difference, that is, a difference sufficient enough to evaluate the question at hand and come to the conclusion you have here. Statistically, sure, James may have had a slightly better peak season, maybe, for whatever that's worth. But to say that it was a better season overall, and have that carry some meaning? I don't think you would get many basketball commentators, who aren't overly preoccupied with the merits of analytics, to agree.

Actually analyzing the players, their teams, and their competition; I don't think one would (should) make the argument that LeBron was necessarily better. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, it's hard to say when narrowing it down to a single season. So again, I think it's necessary to make a basketball argument as to how was better and why and in the proper context.

So, I guess you'd need to frame the question a bit differently, at least for me, to see the argument the way you are as I'm not coming to the same conclusion.

p.s.
Just for reference, did you watch Jordan play? I often find that there is a remarkable difference among opinions depending upon whether one actually watched Michael Jordan (or LeBron for that matter) versus those who didn't.

 

[The George]

All excellent Points and had we won a title no one could argue against you ... BUT we didn't so haters do have that to say and not really make any other points for their opinion

I agree with you while really trying to keep my bias out of the equation but what we did that year with the roster we had ... LeBron was special ... Quite possibly the best of all time and had some one shown up in that God damn Orlando series other than him we wouldn't have to argue about it ...

And maybe he wouldn't have left too but that's a different story

 

[godfather]

I don't buy it at all that '91 was Jordan's greatest peak. Nope. He evolved into a better all around player, one that was willing to share the load more.

Jordan was a one-man wrecking crew, that put absolutely absurd numbers, doing it very efficiently before..

I don't even think '09 was 'Bron's peak year.

Also, why does Wilt also get left out of the discussion when it comes to dominant players?

Do people really buy the myth, he just brutalized smaller guys? I get the game was different, and he'd never average 50 a game in today's league.

But he was a freak of nature. At 35 years old, he could go toe-to-toe, against a very young and great Kareem. The guy once got 55 boards against Russell.

I just think he gets disrespected too much, because he played in a different era, like it was completely meaningless or something.

 

[gourimoko]

I just think he gets disrespected too much, because he played in a different era, like it was completely meaningless or something.

I generally agree.. I am curious though as to how old everyone is here.. Did they watch Jordan actually play games, or is this all based on highlights, hearsay, gut feelings, and basketball-reference.com?

That goes for James just as much. Folks don't realize how dominant he was. Remember the "No Regard for Human Life" game? That was the single greatest sports performance I have ever witnessed in my life, greater than anything I've ever seen any other player do.. James has the ability to just go off like nothing I've ever seen. But that in and of itself doesn't place him above Jordan; instead, it opens the door for the conversation, and from there we should think what makes someone the GOAT, what are the criteria, and beyond that, has anyone topped what Jordan has done?

 

[godfather]

For the record, the average height for centers during Wilt's day was 6'10.. He was not playing against midgets. They had to change how the game was played, because he was so good.

Today, we have people that really believe Shaq would have destroyed him, too. That's so laughable and funny. Wilt could abuse some of the greatest centers ever, like it was nothing.

Do a youtube on Wilt vs Kareem, it's classic. If you don't believe Wilt could really play, watching these clips would change your mind fast.

He would dominate in today's game, and easily be seen as the best big man today, without question.

 

[godfather]

I generally agree.. I am curious though as to how old everyone is here.. Did they watch Jordan actually play games, or is this all based on highlights, hearsay, gut feelings, and basketball-reference.com?

That goes for James just as much. Folks don't realize how dominant he was. Remember the "No Regard for Human Life" game? That was the single greatest sports performance I have ever witnessed in my life, greater than anything I've ever seen any other player do.. James has the ability to just go off like nothing I've ever seen. But that in and of itself doesn't place him above Jordan; instead, it opens the door for the conversation, and from there we should think what makes someone the GOAT, what are the criteria, and beyond that, has anyone topped what Jordan has done?

I watched Jordan play. I did, I seen him in person. He was incredible, I mean there's no way to put it, he was as great as the hype.

I personally believe in James, because I like the team concept of how he plays the game more. I like that he gets more of his teammates involved.

But we're splitting hairs with preference basically. But I've never seen an individual, personally, dominate the way he did.

And Jordan also re-invented his game, completely when he came back from baseball, he was no longer the 'above the rim' player he once was, and he still was the best player in the league.

 

[Ohio]

Tough to say...but that Orlando series is probably the greatest performance in a series by a losing player.

 

[godfather]

Also, needs to be pointed out, Pippen started orchestrating the offense more, and Jordan finally started to play more off-ball, so his numbers overall took a slight hit.

It was better for the team, since he was the focal point of the offense, and the Bulls added the triangle to the mix.

They had a much more fluid offense, and it changed how they played. It was no longer Jordan the sole focal point, every single time.

The Cavs were played polar opposites. LeBron was orchestrating everything, he was the point guard, the leading scorer, he was the offense.

His numbers were ridiculous, individually he was awesome, but it wasn't great for the team. It had to be done given the talent we had, but it's no wonder his year statistically was slightly better than Jordan's individually. Different loads each guy had to carry.

As for who is better? It's about preference. I don't even think there's a correct answer. Both are different players with different strengths. None of them have a serious deficiency as a player, although this year LB's jumper took a back seat.

There's no clear cut definitive answer.

There are the elite of the elite to have ever played the game. There's no question Jordan is there, and so is LeBron.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Don't take this as me knocking your post, as I do I think it's an interesting question, but I also I think the flaw in the argument is that you didn't provide enough analysis to sway the argument one way or another.

I don't think the statistics at hand show enough of a difference, that is, a difference sufficient enough to evaluate the question at hand and come to the conclusion you have here. Statistically, sure, James may have had a slightly better peak season, maybe, for whatever that's worth. But to say that it was a better season overall, and have that carry some meaning? I don't think you would get many basketball commentators, who aren't overly preoccupied with the merits of analytics, to agree.

Actually analyzing the players, their teams, and their competition; I don't think one would (should) make the argument that LeBron was necessarily better. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, it's hard to say when narrowing it down to a single season. So again, I think it's necessary to make a basketball argument as to how was better and why and in the proper context.

So, I guess you'd need to frame the question a bit differently, at least for me, to see the argument the way you are as I'm not coming to the same conclusion.

Fair enough. I'm not trying to base my case off of merely statistical advantages. Furthermore, I realize championships are infinitely valued today, and unfortunately LeBron's season didn't end in one (though I won't fault him for that). All I'm trying to say is that I believe LeBron at his peak (in this case I'm using one whole season each as a reference for both LBJ and MJ because it's the easiest means of comparison and I also find it to be an accurate representation of players at their best) was a better overall player than any other player in NBA history, including Michael. Sure, it's hard to compare players across eras, but just by comparing their respective statistical impacts and their skillets, in which I would take LeBron's superior facilitating, rebounding, and defense over Jordan's superior scoring ability, I think he was a more dominant, impactful player than Michael at his peak. This isn't a comparison of careers or achievements. This is simply a discussion of who you would take at his absolute best: LeBron, whom I personally believe was at his highest peak in 2009, or Jordan, whose peak was most likely in 1991. Of course, there are other options like 2000 Shaq, but I believe most people would choose either LeBron or Jordan.

Also, despite the often used argument that the NBA was tougher and more talented back in the 90s, which would benefit Jordan's case, I find this to be very far from the truth. The NBA was in the midst of league expansion during the late 80s/early 90s with teams like the Magic, the Hornets, the Timberwolves, and the Heat coming onto the scene, meaning every team had to give up a certain number of players, leading to what could be considering a "watering down" effect. Furthermore, with the greater global marketing of basketball in recent years, the NBA has accessed a much greater degree of talent than that which was available a couple decades ago. On opening day this season, 101 international players were present on an NBA roster. That number was about 20 just a couple decades ago.

Overall, this is just my opinion, and I'm trying to compare them as fairly and accurately as I can, which is difficult, seeing that they played in different time periods and the circumstances are different. I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for picking Jordan, but personally I just think LeBron was more dominant/impactful in 2009 than any player in any single season in NBA history, despite the fact that it didn't end with a title. If one is to take anything away from this comparison, I think I'd like people to realize just how close LeBron and Jordan are/were as players (again, not comparing their overall careers). Oftentimes, I think LeBron gets disrespected due to his Finals record and such, when most of the time he's played spectacularly. How would LeBron have fared if he were on those early 90s Bulls teams with Scottie Pippen as his Robin and Phil Jackson as his coach? What about if Jordan spent the first 7 years of his career struggling to carry terrible Cleveland rosters to a title? Unfortunately, we can't know. But I think LeBron's one of those guys people will learn to appreciate more after his basketball career is over because there will truly never be another player quite like him, and who knows? With another half-decade or so of elite play and a few more championships, maybe LeBron does go down as the Greatest of All Time.

 

[Lee]

Goat Peak.