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Small Ball

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Douglar

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Here's an insightful writeup on the small ball trend. I only posted an except from the article here.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14209124/is-small-ball-dominance-golden-state-blip-trend

Being on the wrong end of those exchanges against the small-ball Heat teams motivated Frank Vogel to downsize in Indiana. "It wasn't even about the Warriors," Vogel said. "It was about not being able to overcome LeBron and Miami three straight years. We couldn't even throw the ball inside. We had a lot of turnovers just trying to do that."

If size doesn't matter as much as it used to, you might as well replace at least one behemoth with a smaller guy who can dribble, pass, and shoot 3s in a league where hand-checking is illegal. Coaches (other than Byron Scott) finally grasping the power of the 3-point shot has accelerated small-ball experimentation. On a basic level, three is a lot more than two in a game of finite possessions. Three-point shooters drag defenders away from the rim, leaving open paths for layups. A lineup with five 3-point shooters presents the biggest player on the other team -- the classic rim-protecting center -- with a brutal choice: stay near the rim and allow his guy to jack open corner 3s or hover close to him and leave the rim naked?

Mozgov couldn't adapt to that scenario in the Finals; Iguodala destroyed Cleveland with the easiest 3s he'll ever have. What if you could shove that same dilemma in the face of, say, Rudy Gobert in Utah? "Gobert is huge," Vogel said, "but is he athletic enough to contain shooters and drivers, or does he become a liability?"

You have to go really small -- Golden State level small with five perimeter players -- to foist that choice upon Gobert. Play one traditional big guy, and Gobert will chill near the basket, leaving the quicker Derrick Favors to chase a small-ball power forward. Playing five out is tough to manage. It's hard stocking the roster with enough skilled wings who can shoot 3s, and having all five guys flinging the ball around the arc can almost be bad for spacing. They end up standing near one another in a semi-circle, and opposing defenses can downsize and switch every action -- effectively forming a forcefield around the paint.

You still need someone to puncture the defense -- a rim-runner who sets picks, slices down the paint, sucks in defenders and forces the other team to scramble. "You need one guy going to the rim," Wittman said.

"Four skilled guys out there around a rim-runner -- that's just hard to defend," said Celtics coach Brad Stevens.

The secret to the Warriors is that they play five-out basketball with a rim-runner. Green can shoot 3s, but the lineup works because he's so dangerous screening for Stephen Curry, catching the ball in open space and carving up defenses on 4-on-3 attacks. Green is the rare wing-sized player with a center's wingspan, and a low center of gravity allows him to bang with bigger guys. "That's why Draymond Green is one of the most important players in the league," D'Antoni said.
 
while i like the article (and lowe), it seems kind of silly to glamorize golden state. they have such a unique set of personnel that no team can possibly match it and especially not sustain it over as long a period.

edit: and as noted, the shot at scott is obviously awesome
 
The skilled perimeter power forward was born from the Euroleagues back in the 1980s. There were fundamentally sound big men and slower perimeter players, so the clear-cut roles of the NBA and college game didn't apply to a Russian or Spanish team.

Diaw and Leonard both play a very similar type of game to Draymond, which helped San Antonio enjoy a bit of a resurrection the past three years. Really, any player who has a complete game at the small forward with plus size has been playing a Draymond role, including LeBron.
 
"Small ball trend" - Have Steph Curry jack up impossible 3's and make half of them, then put who ever you want around him and all of the sudden they look amazing cuz they freaking wide open all the time
 
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Hakeem Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson would destroy this league right now.
 
Hakeem Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson would destroy this league right now.
To your point, small ball works so well right now because there are no good big guys out there.

But that looks like it could be changing soon with some of these young guys.
 
The skilled perimeter power forward was born from the Euroleagues back in the 1980s. There were fundamentally sound big men and slower perimeter players, so the clear-cut roles of the NBA and college game didn't apply to a Russian or Spanish team.

Diaw and Leonard both play a very similar type of game to Draymond, which helped San Antonio enjoy a bit of a resurrection the past three years. Really, any player who has a complete game at the small forward with plus size has been playing a Draymond role, including LeBron.
it's important to note those guys - and some others like durant and george - are similar but missing at least one key aspect of draymond's game. diaw can't guard all 5 positions or handle the minute load. leonard isn't as good a passer/creator and wouldn't withstand the beating at center quite as long. same for lebron at center. durant and george can't guard pg's and wouldn't hold up for long at center either.

as the article noted, green has a huge wingspan and low center of gravity. the latter is what separates him from the lebrons, durants, etc of the league because he'll take more of a beating up front. hell, paul george complained about playing the 4 more often, much less the 5.

edit: might as well point out none of the above is a criticism of any of those guys. asking lebron or durant or kawhi to log significant time at center is asking the world of them. it just speaks to the unique versatility green has more than anything.
 
To your point, small ball works so well right now because there are no good big guys out there.

But that looks like it could be changing soon with some of these young guys.

Yeah, our good "big" guys right now are:
- Al Horford (6'10'')
- Paul Millsap (6'8'')
- Brook Lopez (7'0'')
- Al Jefferson (6'10'')
- Pau Gasol (7'0'')
- Kevin Love (6'10'')
- Dirk Nowitzki (7'0'')
- Kenneth Faried (6'8'')
- Andre Drummond (6'11'')
- Draymond Green (6'7'')
- Dwight Howard (6'11'')
- DeAndre Jordan (6'11'')
- Blake Griffin (6'10'')
- Marc Gasol (7'1'')
- Zach Randolph (6'9'')
- Chris Bosh (6'11'')
- Hassan Whiteside (7'0'')
- Greg Monroe (6'11'')
- Karl Anthony-Towns (7'0'')
- Anthony Davis (6'10'')
- Serge Ibaka (6'10'')
- Nikola Vucevic (7'0'')
- Jahil Okafor (6'11)
- Tyson Chandler (7'1'')
- DeMarcus Cousins (6'11'')
- Tim Duncan (6'11'')
- LaMarcus Aldridge (6'11'')
- Jonas Valanciunas (7'0'')
- Rudy Gobert (7'1'')

I mean, out of our elite big guys, we have ten seven footers, and only three of them are at 7'1''. Those guys that are at 7'1'' are mostly defensive specialists anyways (although Marc Gasol is a very good two-way player).

Back in the day, you had multiple dominant players that were just as taller or taller than anything we have right now.

- Yao Ming was 7'6'', but also a freak of nature.
- Zydrunas Ilgauskas was 7'3'', and also very good in his prime.
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was 7'2''.
- Dikembe Mutombo was 7'2''.
- Shaquille O'Neal was 7'1'', but an absolute physical monster compared to Gobert, Gasol, and Chandler.
- David Robinson was 7'1'', see above.
- Hakeem Olajuwon was 7'0''.
- Patrick Ewing was 7'0''.

It seems like these days, if you have anybody taller than 7'1'' in the NBA, they're just there as a shot blocker and rim protector. All of these guys (except for maybe Mutombo and Z) were also legitimate scorers that could go put up 25-30 points on any given night.
 
...and if the Cavaliers have a chance at Mamadou Ndiaye in the late first round this year or next, I'll be pissed as hell if they don't draft him.
 
I thought the most interesting part of the piece was the part about the counters to warriors ball. And it sounds like the Cavs are in as good a position as anyone in the league to do most of the things there's consensus about.

  • Punish them with offensive rebounding -- check, though the caveat here is about giving up some transition defense, which has been a bit of a problem for the Cavs anyway.
  • Take advantage of mismatches in the interior -- check, the Cavs have two of most skilled low-post scorers in the game in Love and Lebron
  • For that to work, though, you gotta have good enough passers to get them the ball through the web of limbs flying around -- check, there's is some really smart, good passing on this team, some of the best in the biz
  • Defensive versatility -- check, kinda. The Cavs do have a lot of different options, from ultra defensive lineups (like Delly, Shump, Lebron, TT and Moz) to all sorts of small and big units. But it's yet to be seen if they are intelligent and athletic enough to do some damage on GSW and if some of those lineups can provide enough offense
Anyway, would you be interested in what you guys think about the counters.
 
It's funny how Draymond has some of the skills of Tristan, and some of the skills of Kevin Love.

He's got the passing, vision, and 3 ball of Kevin Love.

He's got the ability to guard the rim and the perimeter like Tristan Thompson.

Because that's all raveled up into one package, Golden State can run with this ridiculous lineup.

Our team possesses those skill-sets, it's just divided into two players.


Let's hear some creative lineups or anecdotes to the Warriors small-ball.
 
I knew the article had to be by Zach Lowe because in his podcast yesterday with Battier that is exactly what he talked about. For the Warriors, because of their perfect lineup for smallball, it makes sense. It makes less sense for everyone else. If they go to small I think you have to punish them in the post with athletic bigs who can still close out on the perimeter to some extent. A Mozgov might be a liability (especially this year's injured incarnation).
 
re at 7'1''. Those guys that are at 7'1'' are mostly defensive specialists anyways (although Marc Gasol is a very good two-way player).

Back in the day, you had multiple dominant players that were just as taller or taller than anything we have right now.

- Yao Ming was 7'6'', but also a freak of nature.
- Zydrunas Ilgauskas was 7'3'', and also very good in his prime.
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was 7'2''.
- Dikembe Mutombo was 7'2''.
- Shaquille O'Neal was 7'1'', but an absolute physical monster compared to Gobert, Gasol, and Chandler.
- David Robinson was 7'1'', see above.
- Hakeem Olajuwon was 7'0''.
- Patrick Ewing was 7'0''.

It seems like these days, if you have anybody taller than 7'1'' in the NBA, they're just there as a shot blocker and rim protector. All of these guys (except for maybe Mutombo and Z) were also legitimate scorers that could go put up 25-30 points on any given night.

Don't forget Arvydas Sabonis. Bill Walton called him a 7'3" Larry Bird. Ralph Sampson is the only taller/bigger guy in the HOF. He could shoot and pass like Bird. He only played in the NBA after he started to decline with knee problems, but even then he put up a HOF career. He was unstoppable in his prime, leading the russians team easily past the USA teams with David Robinson, mitch richmond, etc, to win olympic gold.

A big guy like that, -now-, would be the answer against small-ball. He would have no problem defending the paint, and going out to defend perimeter shooters. And he would be ideal for fast ball movement, multiple-pass offenses with 4 other small ball players.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I6dKuQ4wc8
 
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Don't understand how the Warriors get credit for this

The heat did it

And I'm sure older teams did it
 

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