2012 Series #33 @ Twins -|- July 27th, 28th, and 29th.

[AZ_]

For me you can't give diminish Hart's part in the success in the 90s , while giving shapiro a pass for the team poor on field results , the sad state of talent on the farm and general disconnect with the casual fan since Hart's departure.

You can blame the Dolans to an extent for not having the deep pocket of other owners to overspend and mask these deficiencies, however the reality is other front offices in small markets have figured it out.

the thing that I find is insulting is asking the average fan to have faith in the organization as they stick to "the plan" when that plan seemingly changes from year to year , especially when you still don't have have any starting pitching and only one position player (Kipnis) that had any success since Shapiro took over the helm.

By all accounts Shapiro is a bright guy that was in demand. my issue is the onfield results haven't lived up to his wunder kid rep . Its been 11 years since 2001 when Hart left . With one playoff run in 2007, a farm system with few players that have produced at the major league level , a disconnect with general fans and resulting declining attendance, you can see why some might not have the warm feelings for this guy.

I don't know where saying its a young man's game is relevant. we have had a young front office that have embraced the changing face of baseball. my issue they have done a poor job while other small part teams have done a better job and are in a better position moving forward

While there may be marginal differences in terms of wins and losses, I fail to see where other small market teams have "figured it out."

There doesn't seem to be a ton of consistently winning franchises in small market's who have deep owners to "make up for deficiencies."


While other franchises have certainly been better at drafting over the last decade, they're still losing their talent when they hit free agency and quite frankly the guys they have produced have stayed healthy/productive to the point where they can reap the benefits (Sizemore, Hafner, Carrasco, Carmona).

 

[ticon12389]

While there may be marginal differences in terms of wins and losses, I fail to see where other small market teams have "figured it out."

There doesn't seem to be a ton of consistently winning franchises in small market's who have deep owners to "make up for deficiencies."


While other franchises have certainly been better at drafting over the last decade, they're still losing their talent when they hit free agency and quite frankly the guys they have produced have stayed healthy/productive to the point where they can reap the benefits (Sizemore, Hafner, Carrasco, Carmona).

The Reds sure did lose Votto and Phillips

The Twins sure did lose Mauer

The Brewers sure did lose Braun

Not talking about whether these worked out or not, but other small market teams have shown the ability to re-sign their own players...but not the Indians.

 

[Gimme Some Mo]

I don't know why some of you even watch the Indians. It seems all you try to do is tell everybody that the Indians have no shot at ever winning and we should all celebrate the joys of being mildly in contention come late summer because that is all a small market team can possibly hope for.

Small market teams have to load up for small windows of contention and then tear it back down. The Tribe doesn't do that. They straddle the fence. 2007 was the perfect time to put the chips in the middle. You had 2 Cy Young caliber pitchers, one of whom you knew was on his way out. You had a pen that was pitching over it's head with about 3 guys who were lights out every appearance. Do they go out and bring in another high quality starter? A big stick to help a mediocre offense? Nah. A platoon outfielder on his last legs.

Last year you give up top prospects for a win now pitcher. Over the winter they follow that up by picking up players out of the bargain bin. It makes no sense. If you aren't ready to spend what it takes to go for it, don't trade away your best prospects. Are you trying to win now or build for the future? You can't do both in this market. Pick a plan and go with it. If you don't, you get what we have now. A team that is good enough that fans will kill you for selling, but bad enough that it makes no sense to buy.

At some point they are going to have to pony up the cash for a couple of seasons to make a serious run at a ring and then strip it down. Either that, or they better start drafting and developing like Tampa and I don't see that happening any time soon.

This post perfectly sums up why I currently can't stand the Indians. Like you said, instead of "going for it" in 2007 and even 2008, they pretty much did nothing to improve the team.

You trade your 2 top pitching prospects for a guy currently having his worst season and then you do nothing else to improve the Major League team. Just makes no sense......

Then the moves they do make seem to rarely work out. We always seem to add the wrong guy. We searching the bargain bin all offseason for a vet starter. We add Derek Lowe instead of adding AJ Burnett (rumored to have interest in him). Derek Lowe is awful and AJ Burnett has a 3.53 ERA. Even the little moves like that don't work out for this team.

You pay Sizemore 5 mil to do nothing. You don't go out and get Willingham because you don't want to "overpay."


Just so damn frustrating. Nothing worse than being mediocre.... especially with the lack of quality in the minors.

 

[AZ_]

The Reds sure did lose Votto and Phillips

The Twins sure did lose Mauer

The Brewers sure did lose Braun

Not talking about whether these worked out or not, but other small market teams have shown the ability to re-sign their own players...but not the Indians.

The Brewers have lost Sabathia and Fielder but kept Braun below market value, and lets also not forget they own Milwaukee and don't have to deal with an NFL team right next door. Of course, I forgot, the NFL team has no effect on the other franchises because they don't play at the same time. It's science.

The Reds certainly seem to be the exception, but they have made the playoffs once since 1996...so perhaps it's best not to point to them as an example. To say nothing of the fact the team is now hamstrung by contracts for the next 12 years in Votto's case.

The Twins aren't really a small market team....Not sure where people get that assumption, they don't play in someone else's stadium anymore.



Of course, the biggest thing you're forgetting is that those player WANTED to resign with their clubs.

 

[SOA]

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[SOA]

I fail to see where other small market teams have "figured it out." . . . other franchises have certainly been better at drafting over the last decade

when you don't have an owner willing to spend you "figure it out" by developing talent on the farm something that hasn't occured under Shapiro's watch

when you can't retain talent bound for free agency , you do a better job of replenishing talent via trades of departing players. What we got back for two CyYoung award winners was beyond underwhelming

As for comparing the Tribe to the other franchises in town, I can't speak to the Browns but the Cavs as an organization is a place where you don't see the younger stars openly complaining about the town and the organization.

its hard to see players giving hometown discounts during free agency when they may not be as enamored with the organization as some here. Again . . . . One of the many things this FO has yet to figure out

 

[AZ_]

I fail to see where other small market teams have "figured it out." . . . other franchises have certainly been better at drafting over the last decade

when you don't have an owner willing to spend you "figured it out" by developing talent on the farm something that hasn't occured under Shapiro's watch

when you can't retain talent bound for free agency doing a better job of replenishing talent via trade. make all the excuses you want what we got back for two CyYoung award winners was beyond underwhelming

as for comparing the Tribe to the other franchises in town, I can't speak to the Browns but the Cavs as an organization is a place where you don't see the younger stars openly complaining about the town and the organization. despite their baseball knowledge there are things the Tribe FO aren't doing well despite the protests of the resident apologists. One of the many things they have yet to figure out

So he wasn't good at developing talent but then go on to lament him for not getting enough in the trades for two Cy Young winnners his organization developed. That doesn't make a ton of sense.

Victor Martinez, Jhonny Peralta, Rafael Betancourt, Asdrubal Cabrera, Shin Soo Choo, Grady Sizemore

Those are/were pretty good players too.

It's a shame those deals didn't work out, it really is.

In terms of drafting, Shapiro was proactive enough to replace nearly the entire scouting department since 2005...So clearly, you're not treading new ground in the thought their drafts need to get better.

They have been better, and you're seeing that now in the form of guys like Kipnis, Chisenhall, Pestano, Allen, ect.

 

[Pyro]

Line-ups added!

 

[SOA]

So he wasn't good at developing talent but then go on to lament him for not getting enough in the trades for two Cy Young winnners his organization developed. That doesn't make a ton of sense.

these are two different issues. there is developing talent and trading for talent.

developing talent is our sad farm system where Kipnis and Pestano, Sipp and Rafael Perez are the only players remotely contributing at the major league level - one position player and a handful of middle relievers. Where is the starting pitching , corner IF and OF waiting in the minors to contribute?

Victor Martinez, Jhonny Peralta, Rafael Betancourt, Asdrubal Cabrera, Shin Soo Choo, Grady Sizemore

Martinez and Peralta were drafted under the maligned farm system under John Hart's watch as was the wealth of talent that populated the 90s teams. I will be less likely to criticize Shapiro when I see more players like Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez, Charles Nagy, Greg swindell , Bartolo Colon CC SAbathia and hell even Russell Branyan coming up over the last 11 years.

taking away Martinez and Peralta, that leaves the farm looking pretty sad. You stated it took until 2005 for him to figure out the farm system needed an overhaul in the past 7 years the results have been underwhelming especially since most took swipes at Hart in the condition he left the farm

as for acquiring talent, I will be the first to give him credit for the trades for talent that he has brought in
Young talent that flourished in a Tribe uniform including the trades you mentioned Choo , Cabrera and his crowning moment in trading Bartolo colon for Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips and Grady Sizemore. I'll give him credit for the trades for Carlos Santana and Chris Perez as well.

He has also found value in giving older players a second chance like Betancourt, Kevin Millwood, and casey Blake

He has a long list of less than stellar players brought in under his watch - Trot Nixon, Josh Barfield. Andy Marte, Jason Michaels, David Dellucci, Masahide Kobayashi,Mark DeRosa, Kerry Wood, Mitch Talbot, Austin Kearns ( twice!), Orlando Cabrera, Travis Buck, and this year Kotchman, Cunningham and Lowe

some of the less than stellar draftees that actually made it to the show were Ben Francisco, Ryan Garko, Michael Aubrey, Jeremy Sowers, Jensen Lewis, Trevor Crowe, David Huff, Scott Lewis, Frank Herrman, Jerad Head, Josh Judy

I feel ill remembering the players listed on the above two lines.

This organization has lost quite a bit under Shapiro's watch

 

[Stark]

I just want somebody in Cleveland to win something.

I don't care who it is to be honest...

 

[SOA]

You pay Sizemore 5 mil to do nothing. You don't go out and get Willingham because you don't want to "overpay."


Just so damn frustrating. Nothing worse than being mediocre.... especially with the lack of quality in the minors.

To add you have a team in the Twins willing to commit to 3 years when the Tribe refuses to comit to the extra year because they are worried about Willingham's injury history(?) while feeling they got a discount in signing Grady . . . unbelievable

 

[AZ_]

Not giving the Assistant GM any of the credit for International signings is incredibly naive. You're simply refusing to give him any credit because it doesn't fit your argument.

We're entering the era where the new scouting department needs to see some of their drafts begin to pay off. We've already seen that start with the guys I mentioned, but they need to continue to contribute and add more before they can be judged.

Brad Grant just undertook his fifth draft since taking over as the scouting director. I think the talent he's acquired is much better than that which came before him.

2008:
Lonnie Chisenhall
Tim Fedroff
Trey Haley
Cord Phelps
TJ House
Zach Putnam (dealt)

2009:
Alex White (dealt)
Jason Kipnis
Joe Gardner (dealt)
Austin Adams (injury)
Matt Packer
Cory Burns (dealt)

2010:
Drew Pomeranz (dealt)
Levon Washington
Tony Wolters
Cody Allen

2011:
Francisco Lindor
Dillon Howard
Jake Sisco
Shawn Armstrong
Jordan Smith
Luis DeJesus

The most disappointing of these has been 2010 IMO, where many of the 2-10 guys have failed to meet expectations or have been injured.

But I do think that the talent pool overall is now greater, and that is why the majority of the Indians prospects currently reside in the low minors (that and trades).

Compare this to 2000-2007 where we have guys like Beau Mills, David Huff, Josh Rodriguez, Jeremy Sowers, Wes Hodges, Trevor Crowe, ect. in the early rounds who never panned out after they can be judged.

I'm hopeful, but I'm not even going to entertain a discussion about how it reflects poorly on the general manager/AGM. If you want to discuss the scouting department's failures I'm all for it. But Shapiro wasn't the one out scouting these guys and he wasn't the one calling the shots on draft day, the GM never is.

I think the organization agreed their draft strategy needed a MAJOR overhaul and they have taken the necessary steps to rectify that.

 

[AZ_]

To add you have a team in the Twins willing to commit to 3 years when the Tribe refuses to comit to the extra year because they are worried about Willingham's injury history(?) while feeling they got a discount in signing Grady . . . unbelievable

Had nothing to do with Willingham's injury history, now you're simply making things up.

 

[redscoon]

In a game where the team is just barely hanging on to the edge of the cliff after being absolutely humiliated in consecutive games, we are starting Lou Marson, Casey Kotchman, Jose Lopez, Shelley Duncan and Brent Lillibridge. Just let that sink in. 100+ games into the year. These guys are starting for you in a critical game.

 

[Pyro]

To be fair, even our worst players should be able to beat the fucking Twins. The pitching just hasn't been there.