2016 Presidential Race AND POLL

[Jack Brickman]

And why is there a problem with early voting and same-day registration? That makes zero sense.

Because that's how the blacks vote, gouri. Duh.

 

[gourimoko]

Because that's how the blacks vote, gouri.

It's true..

I was there in 2007/08 and saw the massive African-American early voter turnout.

African-Americans and Latinos do generally prefer to vote early as they might not have election day off.

Why isn't election day a holiday, like Christmas?

 

[RonG]

Its a right to vote not a privilege. Honestly I don't think i should have to jump through hoops to exercise a right.

 

[Jack Brickman]

It's true..

I was there in 2007/08 and saw the massive African-American early voter turnout.

African-Americans and Latinos do generally prefer to vote early as they might not have election day off.

Why isn't election day a holiday, like Christmas?

Oh, I know it's true. There's a reason that voter fraud laws effectively only prevent Democrats from voting, after all, even though there is no evidence that voter fraud is even a minor concern.

 

[KI4MVP]

I'm aware this is controversial, but...why exactly do we want to make it so easy to cast a vote other than in person?

some people can vote in 10 minutes from the time they leave their house or place of work, for other people it takes hours. Typically the areas where the first is true are where people vote predominately for Republicans while the areas where the second is true are where people vote predominately for Democrats.

How many single parents of small children aren't able to vote because they can't leave their children for hours? How would it hurt elections if everyone was given an easier way to vote if we can figure out a secure way to do that?

We have ATMs that never make mistakes with money and require identification to use. We have phones that validates users through their thumb print. Certainly we can develop technology that simplifies the voting process, reduces the chance for voter fraud or any form of election rigging.

I still can't believe what happened in the United States the year Gore won the election only to see Bush named president because of problems in the state where Bush's brother was governor. If that kind of thing happened in pretty much any other country in the world, the United States would step in to ensure the votes were counted properly.

 

[KI4MVP]

ETA: one more thing. No matter what precautions are taken to prevent hacking, a very large number of people won't ever believe that it is truly secure. And that's going to destroy whatever residual confidence still exists in the reliability of results.

I can securely withdraw money from my bank account at any ATM in the country. If it wasn't secure, nobody would use an ATM. Certainly the security of voting is at least as important as the security of ATMs. People don't leave an ATM and wonder if it will count their withdrawal correctly. ATMs aren't designed to make it easy to get confused or make mistakes. ATM records don't have to be held up to the light to see if there is a little hole punched for deposit or withdrawal, or invalidate the transaction if it's a partial punch instead of a full punch.

 

[gourimoko]

some people can vote in 10 minutes from the time they leave their house or place of work, for other people it takes hours. Typically the areas where the first is true are where people vote predominately for Republicans while the areas where the second is true are where people vote predominately for Democrats.

How many single parents of small children aren't able to vote because they can't leave their children for hours? How would it hurt elections if everyone was given an easier way to vote if we can figure out a secure way to do that?

We have ATMs that never make mistakes with money and require identification to use. We have phones that validates users through their thumb print. Certainly we can develop technology that simplifies the voting process, reduces the chance for voter fraud or any form of election rigging.

I still can't believe what happened in the United States the year Gore won the election only to see Bush named president because of problems in the state where Bush's brother was governor. If that kind of thing happened in pretty much any other country in the world, the United States would step in to ensure the votes were counted properly.

We can register people to vote online with their social security number, and some personal information including their selective service number. At that point they should be able to assign themselves a secure password, and vote.

Making voting partially-compulsory, like paying your taxes, would help to eliminate fraud as a person would need to either validate or invalidate (declare fraud) their own vote.

The idea has been well-researched and it doesn't require novel technology. It could be implemented in a matter of months. The problem is that there is a group of people in this country that do not want voting to increase beyond the pathetic numbers that it stands at today.

 

[natedagg]

It's just not that simple.

Why should voting be a "PITA?" Why shouldn't it be an engaging process?

Why shouldn't we be more democratic by design?

You realize the United States has one of the absolute lowest voter turnout records in the developed world? That's shameful.

It isn't a PITA, it is just a smidgen more difficult than entering a website and clicking a few times.

I don't think a greater percentage of voters is more democratic. I think more people learning about the issues and engaging in political talks/debates/education is more democratic.

I did not realize that we had one of the absolute lowest voter turnout records in the developed world. I am not surprised. There's such an apathy to learn, watch, discuss such things. Or isn't it called "complacency" in the Stages of Democracy?

Anyhow, I wouldn't mind a system incorporating the internet, but I really like the idea of having to register to vote online beforehand. I don't think it's any less democratic to distance the reward of voting from the stimulus of commitment to achieve it.

I think the logistical problems are pretty high-stakes too (people voting for another or selling their votes). I shudder to think about how many votes Gour could get through the system illegally, if that were his intention.

BTW, I was curious why non-voters claim that they don't vote so I dug this up:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/116711284/2012-Nonvoter-Survey-REPORT

Over one-
quarter of nonvoters say that they didn’t vote because they weren’t
registered, by far the top reason.

Those who aren’t registered say it is because they just never registered (21%), theydon’t care much about politics (14%), or because the candidates just do what they want
anyway (11%). Some cite problems with registration, such as registering too late (5%),registration issues (2%), having to work during registration hours (1%), distance fromregistration location (2%) or not knowing how to register (2%).

Other top reasons for not voting in this election include choosing not to (18%), the
belief that their vote wouldn’t make a difference (16%), dislike of the candidates
(14%) and lack of interest in politics (12%).

One-quarter blame logistical or timing issues, such as not having a way to get to the polls (7%), having to work (7%) or travel (4%)
----------------------------
I didn't look at the research methods, so don't skewer me there. There were other findings in the study too, but I didn't read much more. I think the ego works wonders on poll answers, but here we have 18% claiming they didn't vote because of logistical or timing issues. So you can vote absentee if you have to work or can't get there - that's how we do it - so then we are down to the cost of a stamp. I will give about 3% of the 18% some credit for not being full of shit...

Maybe that makes me cynical, but really I don't think it's a limiting, oppressive system, and at the same time, I don't think I don't think there's any way to make it completely fair for all.

Just found this now too: voter turnout by age.

So we have these old farts who can't even get out of bed, can't see shit on the road, need depends, these fuckers are SCHOOLING you young bittttchezzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[natedagg]

Its a right to vote not a privilege. Honestly I don't think i should have to jump through hoops to exercise a right.

is registering beforehand and then mailing in a ballot "jumping through hoops"? I agree, we shouldn't have to jump through hoops.

 

[gourimoko]

ETA: one more thing. No matter what precautions are taken to prevent hacking, a very large number of people won't ever believe that it is truly secure. And that's going to destroy whatever residual confidence still exists in the reliability of results.

Again, this isn't true.

Crypto-currencies demonstrate how self-auditing systems can work.

Again... you register to vote online using specific personal information. You cast your ballot online using your voting account. You are issues a receipt which contains a hash of your voting result. This hash can be used to determine in a permanent future context for whom your vote was cast. Thus, independent organizations as well as government institutions only need to sample a small portion of the population to determine the validity of an election result.

If anyone thought a previous election was rigged, they need only audit the public results of the election, which would be available on the internet. With a sufficient number of private hashes, the entire election can be validated.

So no, such a system is, by far, more secure than what we presently have. To commit fraud would be next to impossible as everyone and anyone has access to the election results of every single voter in the country. He/she performing the audit doesn't know who they voted for without their receipt, but with enough receipts they can validate the election.

 

[Sebastian]

It's true..

I was there in 2007/08 and saw the massive African-American early voter turnout.

African-Americans and Latinos do generally prefer to vote early as they might not have election day off.

Why isn't election day a holiday, like Christmas?

Because Christopher Columbus is way cooler than some pussy, commie voting.

 

[RonG]

is registering beforehand and then mailing in a ballot "jumping through hoops"? I agree, we shouldn't have to jump through hoops.

I have no problems with registering. My problem was with this statement:

"The way it is now is just enough of a PITA where I like it. I agree with 1 vote/person, but if you can't be bothered to show a little, I don't mind if you have to sit out for 4 years to learn your lesson."

It is my opinion that is just dumb. I can't be bothered to go to the bank, and my money is pretty important to me.

The selling of votes and fraud already exist. Just because you go online doesn't mean that number changes up or down. All though you could limit a substantial amount of fraud with an electronic system.

Really in all actuality there isn't any reason we haven't made this a legitimate way to vote already.

 

[gourimoko]

Nate, you're a smart guy. So let's think about this rationally, and critically challenge both of our positions.

First, let's talk about some preconceived notions, then let's readdress the issue.

It isn't a PITA, it is just a smidgen more difficult than entering a website and clicking a few times.

This is false.

I don't think a greater percentage of voters is more democratic.

This is false.

I think more people learning about the issues and engaging in political talks/debates/education is more democratic.

But increased voting is not democratic?

The Vanhanen index is the most often cited measure of quality of democracy that's been in use since the '70s. The two primary factors are competition and participation (as measured by turnout).

I don't think your argument would fit with this definition.

"The index ... attempts to measure democracy with two variables: competition and participation (Vanhanen 2000: 253)."

I did not realize that we had one of the absolute lowest voter turnout records in the developed world. I am not surprised. There's such an apathy to learn, watch, discuss such things. Or isn't it called "complacency" in the Stages of Democracy?

The disengagement can be scientifically polled and has been. Much of it is due to the belief that votes don't matter. In many places, your vote really doesn't matter at all.

When in Hawaii, how do you convince someone to vote? Enough people are entrenched that Hawaii will always break for the Democrat. So voting on either side is generally not required as early polls show who is going to turnout. Thus, less engaged voters need not bother.

The same can be said for California, or Kansas for that matter.

The value of the individual's vote in Presidential elections is diminished, and since those elections headline the others, the effect is to ultimately disengage and disincentivize voting across other elections.

Beyond that, many who can vote don't have time to do so. You suggest voting by mail via absentee ballot; not many people are even aware that you can do that.

Work any polling station and ask the first grandma that walks up "why didn't you vote absentee?" You'll get any number of answers from: "I wanted to make sure it counted," (meaning, counted on election-day) to "what do you mean 'absentee,' isn't that for expats and soldiers?"

Anyhow, I wouldn't mind a system incorporating the internet, but I really like the idea of having to register to vote online beforehand. I don't think it's any less democratic to distance the reward of voting from the stimulus of commitment to achieve it.

I think this is because you fundamentally misunderstand what voting is, I think.

Look at what you're saying:

"to distance the reward of voting from the stimulus of commitment to achieve it."

Who is rewarding whom? Achieve what? Voting is a right. Not simply a civil right but a human right to live in a democratic or representative government.

There should be no hoops to jump through to exercise a right. Imagine if you needed to jump through hoops to exercise your freedom of speech? Or to go to church?

I think the logistical problems are pretty high-stakes too (people voting for another or selling their votes).

Not sure what you mean by "people voting for another," but there's nothing stopping someone from selling their vote; but it is illegal to purchase a vote.

I don't see how or why this is a logistical problem, or how or why this couldn't be done in our present system.

I shudder to think about how many votes Gour could get through the system illegally, if that were his intention.

As skilled as I am, I don't know how to defeat such a system. If I could, I'd be a millionaire already having defeated bitcoin.

BTW, I was curious why non-voters claim that they don't vote so I dug this up:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/116711284/2012-Nonvoter-Survey-REPORT

Over one-
quarter of nonvoters say that they didn’t vote because they weren’t
registered, by far the top reason.

Those who aren’t registered say it is because they just never registered (21%), theydon’t care much about politics (14%), or because the candidates just do what they want
anyway (11%). Some cite problems with registration, such as registering too late (5%),registration issues (2%), having to work during registration hours (1%), distance fromregistration location (2%) or not knowing how to register (2%).

Other top reasons for not voting in this election include choosing not to (18%), the
belief that their vote wouldn’t make a difference (16%), dislike of the candidates
(14%) and lack of interest in politics (12%).

One-quarter blame logistical or timing issues, such as not having a way to get to the polls (7%), having to work (7%) or travel (4%)
----------------------------

Agreed, and if everyone was registered, and if people were more engaged, you agree those numbers would go down?

Look at other developed countries that do the same.. America is no different, we simply lag behind with respect to the quality of our democracy.

I think the ego works wonders on poll answers, but here we have 18% claiming they didn't vote because of logistical or timing issues. So you can vote absentee if you have to work or can't get there - that's how we do it - so then we are down to the cost of a stamp. I will give about 3% of the 18% some credit for not being full of shit...

Do you think the bolded is rational?

Why presume to know better than those answering the poll? The purpose of the poll is to ask why people chose not to vote. They said they couldn't, they didn't have the means to. You can't simply throw that out.

Maybe that makes me cynical, but really I don't think it's a limiting, oppressive system, and at the same time, I don't think I don't think there's any way to make it completely fair for all.

I'm not sure why you feel that it isn't limiting with Voter I.D. laws and limits on early voting becoming the norm in many states; and the intent of these laws is to control the outcome of elections rather than to increase voter turnout.

Just found this now too: voter turnout by age.

So we have these old farts who can't even get out of bed, can't see shit on the road, need depends, these fuckers are SCHOOLING you young bittttchezzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

This has been addressed upthread, but the point is that the elderly are less likely to have responsibilities keeping them from voting.

So there's my argument to you.. I hope you can challenge your own position and respond in kind and I'll try to do the same with mine and we can come to some consensus. I do think you'd ultimately agree that increased voter participation is better for democracy and would reduce the influence of corruption in our country, right?

 

[Cavatt]

Where I am from the bars don't open until the polls are closed. Every business should do that

 

[gourimoko]

Reasons to Register

1. Registration is the Law — A man’s only duty right now under the Military Selective Service Act is to register at age 18 and then to let Selective Service know within 10 days of any changes in the information he provided on his registration form until he turns 26 years old.
2. Fairness and Equity — By registering all eligible men, Selective Service ensures a fair and equitable draft, if ever required. However, there has not been a draft since 1973.
3. Insurance for the Nation — By registering, a man’s voluntary participation helps provide a hedge against unforeseen threats. It is a relatively low-cost insurance policy for our nation.
4. Civic Duty — It’s your responsibility to ensure that young men 18 through 25 understand the law so they can make an informed decision about registration compliance. Currently, more than 90 percent of eligible young men are registered. It’s a civic duty of every young man to comply with the law.
5. Protect Eligibility for Future Benefits — It’s what a man’s got to do. By registering, a young man stays eligible for jobs, college loans and grants, job training, driver’s license in most states, and U.S. citizenship for immigrant men.

Hmm... Seems sensible to me... Is voting any less important?