What is your definition of a "plus" defender? That they are above zero on DBPM?
No.
Being a "plus" defender simply means that a person is above league average on some quantitative or qualitative scale. On a normalized scale, a person who is above zero should be a "plus" defender.
However, this isn't the case for DBPM, because DBPM is not a good measurement to use for most perimeter defenders. It also fails to really take into account non-box score related observables; and thus, is not really useful to make either of our points.
Those aren't the end all be all for assessing everything a defender does but when you watch them play, it backs up that they're not as good as you are saying they are IMO.
You picked one statistic and used it as the primary premise of your argument. If you go back over my posts, I routinely explain to others how DBPM works and why it isn't useful for what you're trying to do.
Your statement that "it backs up that they are not as good as (I am) saying they are" is demonstrably false. You can look at how DBPM is calculated to easily see this; or you can simply read the synopsis of the history of the statistic on bb-ref:
"
on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with minutes and what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.
What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender."
I can get into further detail and demonstrate how and why Klay Thompson is an excellent defender yet DBPM will not reflect this.
They've posted average advanced metrics guarding guys like Tyreke Evans, Eric Gordon, Tony Allen and Courtney Lee. Then in the WCF are getting toasted by Harden.
Harden is obviously an outlier, he's an MVP candidate; you cannot use him to make your case.
Look at where they fall amongst all SG/Wing players. They're middle of the road. The NBA average for DRTG is around 105-106. The best wing defender during the regular season was Iggy but he gives up like 50+ LBS to LeBron.
Again, you're resorting to the box score stats which punish Thompson for not being a good rebounder. DRtg doesn't directly measure perimeter (wing) defense.
You again use LeBron James (an outlier) vs Iguodala, to try to make a case. It's not how one does statistical comparisons.
I think you are WAY overrating their wings on the defensive side of the ball.
Which is okay, and I'm open to that possibility; but you haven't given me actually valid reasons to think I'm overrating them.
As a team, they are very good but they don't have defenders that are going to give LeBron problems IMO.
I don't think LeBron will have problems per se; but let's not pretend like they don't have wing and post defenders - they do, some pretty fucking good ones too.
I'm not saying we are going to walk through them. They would be a pretty decent favorite but because we have an elite SF, that is the one area they struggle to defend and it gives us a chance.
They don't struggle to defend penetration or the rim; they're actually among the best in the league.
I'm not even sure we're talking about the same team. The Warriors are among the Top 3 best defensive teams in the NBA, and by many measures, they are the best.
Don't just take my word for it; here's what Ethan Strauss said about it midseason:
How Warriors built NBA's top defense
"For the Warriors, positions mean so little on defense because they've built a roster comprised of guys the same size.
The players and coaches call it "versatility," a common set of qualities that allows the team to constantly switch on and off the ball.
With Iguodala, Livingston, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Harrison Barnes and Justin Holiday, Golden State has a half-dozen long, defensively talented players who stand between 6-foot-6 and 6-foot-8.
That height range is perfect for navigating between marking little guys and grappling with big men. For example, Green typically guards power forwards, but he can stop Chris Paul in a pinch."
