Anderson Varejao

[Cashius X]

Re: Bynum Presser

Duncan has primarily been a PF for most of his career. He can play C, but he's mostly been a PF. He has started only 13 games at C over the past ten seasons. Varejao doesn't have as long of a record nor as many starts since he was a spark off the bench at first, but over his career he has 114 starts at C and only 39 at PF. Despite his limited time healthy, Varejao has 50 starts at C over the past two years compared 0 for Duncan. Duncan is an all-time great in my book, but as a PF.

Marc Gasol is good, but I like Varejao better - especially on the glass. I'm assuming you're referring to the younger Gasol since Pau has mostly been a PF since going to LA.

A guy like Aldridge also can be considered a Center, but he doesn't play much there either.

Asik is a Center, but can't say he's better than Varejao. They are actually pretty close overall. Tyson Chandler? I'd take Varejao, though I like Chandler. Howard is definitely better. Bynum was too two seasons ago.

Better than Al Jefferson?

I think Varejao's presence in the paint and his frenetic nature put him up there. He was overall pretty fantastic in his short time this year. And a lot of guys that people think at Cs often never really play there. Teams often try to put some kind of rebounding or defensive force there and place the offensive guys at PF.

Varejao is pretty good, any way you slice it. Have to give Paxson credit for getting him - and I recall him saying back then that Varejao was their main target with Gooden being icing on the cake. That may be giving Paxson too much credit, but he's turned out to be a very good player and a fan fave.

Ok. How would you argue Varejao being better than KG, Brook Lopez, Noah, or Hibbert? And I included Duncan as a center because although he may start games as a PF he typically finishes them as a Center. I'm pretty sure he played more minutes at the 5 than at the 4 last season.

 

[oasis05]

I think trying to pigeonhole varejao as a center and say he's no good because he doesn't have the size to match up with howard or marc gasol just misses what varejao is. He's an energy big. He reeks havoc. He's not out there to stop centers, he's a pick and roll player, and a hustle player. Rodman, Birdman, Faried are his comparisons. He has nothing in comparison with Hibbert.

 

[Cavatt]

Re: Bynum Presser

I am not really saying he is top 5, but I don't think it is clear cut he isn't. The best argument I have heard is that he is not really a center, which I might agree with. He's definitely not a traditional center, and that is why he is hard to compare. He is a guy that helps you win more than a lot of guys on Looney's list, and he has shown that by occasionally leading the league in +-.

Yes, we will never know if he could average 14 and 14 for a full season, but I don't think anyone else did that even for 25 games. AV had some historic games last year with ridiculous stats. The starting 5 was one of the best in the league while he was playing. With all the talk about whether certain players make their teammates better, there is no doubt in my mind that Andy is one of the best at making his team mates better. His versatility come from the fact that he fills in all the little gaps that other players overlook.

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Re: Bynum Presser

I can't confirm the accuracy, but 82games shows Duncan spending most of his minutes at center since the mid 2000s.

I looked primarily at the starting gamelogs. He's rarely ever started there - and I'm not sure if official tracking puts him at C or PF outside of him starting. They often categorize him as a C, but he is placed in the PF slot. The odd thing there too is that they don't see to have any information about him as a PF. If you actually take the percentage of minutes on the season with their percentages, you find that it accounts for all the time he played.

So 82games puts Duncan as Center, even when the official gamelogs list him as a PF. They have just generically labeled him as a C and thus assume that all the minutes he plays are at C.

Good historic discussion below:

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/04/tim-duncans-a-power-forward-and-the-best-ever/

 

[Cashius X]

Re: Bynum Presser

Did it hurt your feelings or something? It's one thing to have a lively debate, it's another to take it so seriously that you have to defend yourself against silly comments. If it was a bad joke you could let its badness speak for itself.

Now, looking at the argument, there are few centers that can do what Andy does on defense. Most of the best defensive centers are good at protecting the rim and playing one on one rather than being a versatile and energetic defender like Andy. He also shows great prowess on the cut and has a perplexingly okay midrange game now. Given all of this you could argue that a healthy Andy is a top ten center and maybe even squeak into the top five. Squeak is a stretch though.

I agree that he's overvalued and people are quick to call stats bloated when the player is on another shitty team but somehow Andy's 14 and 14 is legitimate and not at all boosted by our shitty young bigs and lack of talent last year. Rankings don't really matter all that much to me because it's all about how the pieces we have can contribute. Having a top 5 center doesn't mean shit if our perimeter defense is garbage and he's injured all the time anyway. I don't care how many awards he gets or how much attention he gets from the media (as nice as it'd be) as long as he's playing like Anderson Varejao this season all season.

What? You'd know I wasn't offended by my comment after his next post. Calm down

Ayeeee there you go lol

 

[Cavatt]

I think trying to pigeonhole varejao as a center and say he's no good because he doesn't have the size to match up with howard or marc gasol just misses what varejao is. He's an energy big. He reeks havoc. He's not out there to stop centers, he's a pick and roll player, and a hustle player. Rodman, Birdman, Faried are his comparisons. He has nothing in comparison with Hibbert.

Yeah I think it is a good point. He is more Ben Wallace or Rodman even though he doesn't have their athleticism. He plays with his mind, and by seeing things before they develop.

The thing that has impressed me most with him is that he has improved his game every year he has played. It looks like he has lost a step, but he is better than before. Adding a jumpshot, and improving his court vision/passing has been amazing. I remember cringing when he would put up a layup even, and now I am surprised when it doesn't go down. His broke jumper is effective. The list goes on and on.

I think your assessment that he is an "energy big man", even though he is better than what that usually entails, is pretty spot on.

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Re: Bynum Presser

Ok. How would you argue Varejao being better than KG, Brook Lopez, Noah, or Hibbert? And I included Duncan as a center because although he may start games as a PF he typically finishes them as a Center. I'm pretty sure he played more minutes at the 5 than at the 4 last season.

So you just get to qualify him as a Center because it suits your argument?

Duncan is a Power Forward. Sorry. He has played that most of his career and started there throughout. He can play C, but he has primarily played PF since he came into the league.

KG? Did you just turn ANOTHER PF into a Center to try to bolster your argument?

I've made the argument against Lopez. He's a shitty rebounder and not a good defender. Varejao's rebounding ability, defensive ability, and disruptive ability make him better. I wouldn't trade Varejao straight up for Lopez.

Noah. Similar players. Noah is the better blocker - true. But Varejao has proven better on the rebounds and getting the ball in the bucket. I also see Varejao as a better disruptive force. Noah is good and I think they are close, but can't say I'd want to just swap them out.

Hibbert has underwhelmed as a rebounder since his Georgetown days. To his credit, he got better this year. He is a force in the paint, but Varejao has a better offensive game. Again, like Hibbert. Of those guys you listed, I'd be most likely to do a swap of Varejao and Hibbert straight up. I would want Chicago or Brooklyn to give me something else if they offered me their Cs.

We could certainly look at PER, though we have to remember that defense doesn't really fit in with that stat. Lopez doesn't take a hit for his lackluster D. Varejao doesn't get a bump for his good D. Nor does Marc Gasol get a bump for his great D.

I would agree with anyone who says that Varejao is not clear cut top 5. There are arguments to be made. But they can be made. Beyond the top 2 or 3 Cs, there is a lot of gray area and a lot of room for debate.

 

[Cashius X]

I think you can make an argument that he is as good or better than all except Howard. Gasol and Lopez can put up some points, but they are not as good at getting rebounds. Second chance buckets that Andy creates due to his rebounding don't count unless he scores them. And AV was pulling down 5.5 offensive rebounds per game last year. That's more than 3 more offensive rebounds per game than Marc Gasol (and Varejao nearly doubled Gasol up on RPG) and almost double Lopez's offensive rebounds. AV has over a 2 RPG advantage there even when you adjust PER36. AV also got over SIX more rebounds per game total than Lopez when you adjust PER36.

Lopez is also hardly a plus defender. I've never felt he's all that good on D. Of course, that cannot be said for Marc Gasol. He's an excellent defender (as you can see by his fresh DPOY award).

So I can certainly give you Gasol. Lopez is a harder argument. AV is better than Noah. Hibbert's rep has climbed up because of the playoffs, but I still think AV is better overall too.

Dwight is obvious. I'll give you Gasol, because there's a strong argument there. A healthy Bynum would be in the discussion. Beyond that, Andy can be argued for.

And last year, he was definitely top 5 during his limited appearances.

Great point. Can't believe I forgot about that. Before he got hurt he was getting recognition as a top 5 center in the league. Some analysts even said he was top 3 in the league. Still though, it's hard for me to think of him as being better than Noah, Hibbert, Gasol, Dwight,Lopez, Duncan, or even KG. You could definitely make and support a case arguing that he's top 5 though. Idk agree to disagree I guess.

 

[CavsFTW]

Re: Bynum Presser

Statistically, Varejao had top 5 numbers when he got hurt. That's where much of the top 5 center argument comes from. It's hard to argue against a highly efficient 14-14 per game.

The problem, as some have already pointed out -- and everyone pretty much knows by now -- is his defense. Under Byron Scott, Andy was more efficient and less defensive. Heck, everyone was less defensive under Scott. If Andy's to be considered a top 5 center even for just a single season, that revolving door needs to be shut.

With Mike Brown back, I expect better defense from Andy and much more of this:

 

[ice cream man]

Andy literally doesn't stop moving. How many NBA players can say they do the same thing...?

 

[CavsFTW]

Re: Bynum Presser

I looked primarily at the starting gamelogs. He's rarely ever started there - and I'm not sure if official tracking puts him at C or PF outside of him starting. They often categorize him as a C, but he is placed in the PF slot. The odd thing there too is that they don't see to have any information about him as a PF. If you actually take the percentage of minutes on the season with their percentages, you find that it accounts for all the time he played.

So 82games puts Duncan as Center, even when the official gamelogs list him as a PF. They have just generically labeled him as a C and thus assume that all the minutes he plays are at C.

Good historic discussion below:

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/04/tim-duncans-a-power-forward-and-the-best-ever/

What's odd is that the most recent season 82games has of Duncan logging notable minutes at PF was back in 08-09:

http://www.82games.com/0809/08SAS17.HTM#bypos

PF - 7%
C - 55%

So they don't seem to be just generically labeling him a center, at least not for that season.

 

[Cashius X]

So you just get to qualify him as a Center because it suits your argument?

Duncan is a Power Forward. Sorry. He has played that most of his career and started there throughout. He can play C, but he has primarily played PF since he came into the league.

KG? Did you just turn ANOTHER PF into a Center to try to bolster your argument?

I've made the argument against Lopez. He's a shitty rebounder and not a good defender. Varejao's rebounding ability, defensive ability, and disruptive ability make him better. I wouldn't trade Varejao straight up for Lopez.

Noah. Similar players. Noah is the better blocker - true. But Varejao has proven better on the rebounds and getting the ball in the bucket. I also see Varejao as a better disruptive force. Noah is good and I think they are close, but can't say I'd want to just swap them out.

Hibbert has underwhelmed as a rebounder since his Georgetown days. To his credit, he got better this year. He is a force in the paint, but Varejao has a better offensive game. Again, like Hibbert. Of those guys you listed, I'd be most likely to do a swap of Varejao and Hibbert straight up. I would want Chicago or Brooklyn to give me something else if they offered me their Cs.

We could certainly look at PER, though we have to remember that defense doesn't really fit in with that stat. Lopez doesn't take a hit for his lackluster D. Varejao doesn't get a bump for his good D. Nor does Marc Gasol get a bump for his great D.

I would agree with anyone who says that Varejao is not clear cut top 5. There are arguments to be made. But they can be made. Beyond the top 2 or 3 Cs, there is a lot of gray area and a lot of room for debate.

I classify them as Centers because that's what they play. Duncan and KG came into the league as PFs and when they retire they'll be remembered as two of the greatest PFs to ever play the game. But in today's NBA they play the center position. It doesn't matter what they've played for their whole career. Because they played the majority of their minutes at the center spot last season I'm considering them as Centers.

And idk if it's just me but I honestly just see Noah as a taller Varejao. Same motor. Great passer for a big man. Both have decent jump shots, although Varejao's is better imo. It could be a matter of preference but I'd take Noah over Varejao everyday.

And you made good points about the centers I consider better than Varejao. But at the end of the day how many GMs do you think would deal any of those centers for Varejao in a straight swap? I'd say none. But I guarantee if Chris Grant had the chance he'd swap Varejao for Hibbert, Noah, Dwight, Marc Gasol, Duncan, Lopez, or KG.

 

[Tornicade]

lets play a game.. Guess the Varejao
Noah- Neutralized

Player ▴	G	W	L	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Player 1	15	5	10	9	30. 9	3.8	7.7	.496	2.3	3.6	.630	2.1	5.2	7.3	1.2	1.1	1.1	1.3	2.8	9.9
Player 2	15	10	5	12	30.3	3.5	7.1	.500	2.7	3.5	.755	3.5	6.0	9.5	1.9	0.8	1.4	1.1	2.9	9.7

<thead> </thead> <tbody>
</tbody>

Hibbert- Neutralized

Player ▴	G	W	L	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Player 1	12	6	6	5	27.9	3.8	6.9	.542	2.7	3.7	.727	3.2	5.0	8.2	1.7	1.3	1.0	1.4	2.6	10.2
Player 2	12	6	6	10	25.0	3.9	8.2	.480	1.8	2.3	.778	2.4	3.9	6.3	1.5	0.3	1.9	2.1	3.5	9.6

<thead> </thead> <tbody>
</tbody>

M Gasol - Neutralized

Player	G	W	L	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Player 1	6	4	2	3	29 .3	3.0	6.0	.500	1.3	2.8	.471	2.3	6.5	8.8	0.8	1.0	1.0	1.3	4.0	7.3
Player 2	6	2	4	6	34.0	4.0	8.8	.453	1.8	3.0	.611	2.3	4.8	7.2	2.3	0.8	1.0	2.7	3.3	9.8

<thead> </thead> <tbody>
</tbody>

Brook Lopez- Negligible

Player	G	W	L	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Player 1	10	8	2	5	31.5	5 .7	8.8	.648	2.5	3.9	.641	3.8	5.1	8.9	1.2	0.5	0.8	1.2	3.2	13.9
Player 2	10	2	8	10	34.5	5.9	13.4	.440	5.1	6.4	.797	4.5	5.5	10.0	1.6	0.4	1.1	1.7	3.3	16.9

<thead> </thead> <tbody>
</tbody>

- most of the games occured duringthe lebron era.. so i looked up their last matchup.

Player	Date	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Player 2	2012-11-13	1	28:47	10	14	.714	3	5	.600	2	5	7	1	1	4	2	4	23
Player 1	2012-11-13	1	37:29	16	21	.762	3	3	1.000	11	7	18	3	2	0	1	2	35

<tbody>
</tbody>

Av is player 1. He gives you alot of looks and adjust his playstyle accordng to his opponent. Yes Dwight howard is his kryptonite but these other guys certinaly dont put you ata disadvantage having Andy in there.. Is Andy going to dominate or beat out those guys? no but he is gonna minimize their impact on the game. Andy isnt going to win you games but he is going to give you a chance to win.

 

[-Akronite-]

Re: Bynum Presser

What? You'd know I wasn't offended by my comment after his next post. Calm down

Well shit, missed that.

I find all the semantic arguments in here to be odd. Does it matter how many minutes they played in each? Clearly these guys we're comparing CAN play the 5, so any ranking or comparison should be based on how well they CAN play it. Andy put up those numbers as a center and Duncan has the size, especially with the league as it is to play center at about the same rate and capacity as PF.

 

[Cashius X]

Re: Bynum Presser

What part of "when healthy" do you not understand? We all understand that Andy doesn't have as much value as other top-10 centers because of his injury problems. But he'd surely command as much value as those other guys if he were playing 70+ games every season.

I'm not arguing the fact that he's top 10. I've said multiple times that he's top 10 from the start. I was disputing the fact that he's a top 5 center in the league. And even if Andy wasn't "injury prone" I still don't think he'd garner the same value as Dwight, Hibbert, Noah, Marc Gasol, Brook Lopez, or even Duncan or KG.