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Sasha Kaun

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It's too premature guys.. Going in either direction of the argument.

I've been keeping notes of what's been going on, and I think at the end of the offseason we should think about what the Cavaliers accomplished to make this team better.

Right now, I am not satisfied. But, I'm also not far at all from @MirORich or @kovanovich 's positions either; in that, we really need to take a wait and see approach.

Maybe Griffin has a plan... maybe.. Maybe he doesn't, and maybe we did miss out on some pretty solid pieces.

Right now, again, it doesn't look like the most well managed set of decisions. It's the GM's job to get talent, to convince said talent to play for the best team in the league and to sell them on a guaranteed Finals appearance. The fact that we haven't been able to do so thus far speaks volumes, but what speaks even louder is the fact that the Cavaliers have not been reported as one of the teams pursuing some pretty prominent figures.

We were linked to West, but AFAIK, that's about it; and ultimately it seems like it was the Cavs who chose not to make the Johnson trade.

If that turns out to be true, that we balked at trading Haywood+Varejao for Joe Johnson and that cost us David West... boy oh boy... Especially considering Varejao might not even play 30 games this season.

...not going to go on forever about purely speculative things... really it just boils down to a wait and see approach. But August 1st is fast approaching and it looks like we might, at most, get a TPE (which will cost us an asset). It also looks like our draft night decisions have not worked out either.

We'll see where we are in two weeks.
Right, like I'm not saying we are absolutely going to win a championship. But I also think it's pretty extreme to say our offseason cost us one. We'll see how this team gels come next season, but if everyone is health (minus Varejao and that is still a huge if), I don't see why this team can't compete for the title.

The biggest mistake we made -- if it was in fact us who made it -- was not trading Varejao and Haywood for Joe Johnson when we had the chance. I still don't necessarily believe that cost us a championship. It would've just been really nice to have that talent as simple depth.
 
You don't think re-signing LeBron James, Kevin Love, Iman Shumpert, and most likely Tristan Thompson, JR Smith, and Delly aren't us getting better? Adding a veteran backup point guard who can still be effective and has past chemistry with some members on our team isn't helpful?

Did you forget how dangerous and dominate this Cavs team was when at full strength? I believe 33-3 they were when the main core was active, minus Andy.

That's insane. And if anyone thinks the Cavs' summer thus far has been horrible because we didn't sign a few guys to veteran minimum deals(because we didn't have much cap room to work with anyway), then you're delusional.

The Cavs got better by adding Mo Williams to their already stacked roster. The Cavs still hold the Haywood asset, and they have own the rights to Kaun and their 2nd-round rookies they selected back in the draft.

Because the Clippers signed Josh Smith and the Spurs signed Aldridge and David West doesn't make them better than the Cavs, either. Yes those teams got better, but it still doesn't concern me, nor should it.

This isn't the final roster we will see, but even if it is, it's arguably the best in league.

I think what @David. is trying to say is that the Cavaliers didn't make moves to make themselves better; moves that were available to them by most reasonable accounts.

I don't think he's saying the Cavs inherently got worse, or even that Mo doesn't help us, but that other GMs managed to very smartly improve their teams while not racking up the highest payroll in the league (a payroll that may have prevented us from making the Johnson trade).

As David has said, the Spurs will be a force next season at less than half the price. I don't agree that they are better than the Cavaliers though, but that's neither here nor there.

The David West addition should not be discounted considering he approach us and the opportunity seemed to have existed. He left $12M on the table and signed for the vet min to play behind LMA; yet we anticipate Anderson Varejao as being a more important backup big? It's not really logical.

Missing on Johnson should also not be discounted considering we were reported as balking at paying the luxury tax. That report makes perfect sense considering what it would cost the Cavs, considering the reasons we are delaying signing Delly and JR Smith is that we're likely haggling over $1M/yr each; again, hoping to save Gilbert some money.

So yes, it does appear that we, the title favorites, are missing on quite a few player signings, who are signing for vet mins and would have been very useful to shore up our bench. Again, this should not be discounted either.

I think we should avoid rationalizing best case scenarios for David Griffin (assuming he's some amazing GM -maybe he is, maybe he isn't) and instead just think of what has and hasn't likely happened.

I do get a sense of homerism in this thread and the S34 variant, and it's completely understandable; we're all Cavs fans. It's hard to stay objective. I just think it's important to think about these things as critically as possible and take a results-oriented approach first, then try to find rationales for seemingly failing later (not the reverse).

Personally, and this is completely speculative, I think what's happening now is that Jamal Crawford is starting to encourage the Clippers, publicly, to trade him to the Cavs. I think that's pretty obvious, and he feels he's in limbo. I think the Cavaliers eventually bite the bullet and trade for him simply to appease LeBron James.

Adding Williams and Crawford adds a substantial scoring punch that we didn't have before. But, I personally think the two players are redundant and won't work very well together at this stage of their careers, but that's just my opinion.


Either way, if I'm Doc, I don't trade Crawford at this point because he has no leverage (he's no star) and it does not benefit me to do so. I go balls to the wall to try and make a Finals appearance before Balmer fires my ass. That's kind of why I think the Cavs are very likely to be left high and dry with nothing to show for the Haywood deal other than a TPE minus an asset or two to facilitate such a trade.

Again, if that's how this offseason pans out, then yes, I would be disappointed, and I don't think that's an unfair assessment of our offseason.
 
The Cavs are one of the favorites to win the title as it stands right now, so I think some people should try to have a little perspective. I always had a feeling the Haywood contract wasn't going to bring much back. Teams aren't going to be eager to help the Cavs in anyway unless the deal is sweetened for them. Joe Johnson would have been a great addition, but there are already players on the roster that could easily fill a fourth option as it is. He wasn't a necessity. In fact, the only things the Cavs have absolutely needed to do, they have done or they are working towards doing.

This team still has several young or relatively young rotational players (Irving, Shumpert, Thompson, Love, Delly) that haven't entered their prime yet (or in Love's case, he's just entering it). It isn't far fetched that each of them will improve individually in some fashion as they continue to grow as a team.

The priorities for the Cavs this off-season should've been re-signing everyone, patching up the roster, getting healthy and building continuity. I don't see where they are failing in any of those categories.

I can see being a little bummed the Cavs didn't wind up with West or JJ, but that's it. If the high payroll is the cause, then that's fine, because the money was spent on players that are much more important to the Cavs' long-term title aspirations than Johnson or West.

Now where Kaun comes into play? I don't know. Nor do I honestly care. Whomever the 4th big man is will see very limited minutes.
 
Right, like I'm not saying we are absolutely going to win a championship. But I also think it's pretty extreme to say our offseason cost us one.

Oh definitely, I agree..

Even if we stand pat, we're easily the title favorites in my opinion. No team in the East is a threat, and in the West, I don't think Golden State gets back to the Finals and even if they do we took them to 6 without Irving and Love.

For what the Spurs gained, surely age has to start effecting them sooner rather than later. I also don't think post-oriented teams are going to win a Finals series, and they have no answer for Irving who is only getting better.

I also don't think the Clippers, Houston, or OKC are legitimate title contenders.

We'll see how we fare with injuries going into the season; although, it would have been nice to add a SF to reduce James minutes. If, and this is almost an absurdity, Varejao can stay healthy, we should at least be able to limit Kyrie and Love to 34 mpg.

We'll see how this team gels come next season, but if everyone is health (minus Varejao and that is still a huge if), I don't see why this team can't compete for the title.

I agree.. Saying we can't compete makes no sense.

The biggest mistake we made -- if it was in fact us who made it -- was not trading Varejao and Haywood for Joe Johnson when we had the chance. I still don't necessarily believe that cost us a championship. It would've just been really nice to have that talent as simple depth.

Agreed.

I think most folks would agree with everything here. I don't even think @David. believes we can't compete, he's just indulging in some hyperbole. He might think we're not the title favorites though, and in that he might be right.

LeBron James had one of his worst seasons last year, and he is once again trying to retool his game; a lot depends on how he continues to age. If we get a better, healthier LeBron then we should be a better team - but if we don't, and he continues to decline, then we'd have a problem.

Again, it's just too early to say, one way or another.
 
joe Johnson? Yeah, he would've been amazing. I ultimately don't think the Cavs were willing to give up Varejao.

.

If you think not getting Johnson so we can keep andy is a good move..
 
If you think not getting Johnson so we can keep andy is a good move..
Where did I say that? I agree with you that we missed out there.
 
I think we compete but agaon, it too a lot to keep up with san antonio and they got a lot better. I 100percent believe we lose to the spurs and i don't feel confident against the warriors. Id have to see how the clippers turn out.


33And3 is impressive but it's not playoff basketball against the elite of the elite playing all out and doesn't focus on match ups

I know you guys forgot how scared we all were of them, but there's a thread for it. They're heavy favorites of they play us


Oh definitely, I agree..

Even if we stand pat, we're easily the title favorites in my opinion. No team in the East is a threat, and in the West, I don't think Golden State gets back to the Finals and even if they do we took them to 6 without Irving and Love.

For what the Spurs gained, surely age has to start effecting them sooner rather than later. I also don't think post-oriented teams are going to win a Finals series, and they have no answer for Irving who is only getting better.

I also don't think the Clippers, Houston, or OKC are legitimate title contenders.

We'll see how we fare with injuries going into the season; although, it would have been nice to add a SF to reduce James minutes. If, and this is almost an absurdity, Varejao can stay healthy, we should at least be able to limit Kyrie and Love to 34 mpg.



I agree.. Saying we can't compete makes no sense.



Agreed.

I think most folks would agree with everything here. I don't even think @David. believes we can't compete, he's just indulging in some hyperbole. He might think we're not the title favorites though, and in that he might be right.

LeBron James had one of his worst seasons last year, and he is once again trying to retool his game; a lot depends on how he continues to age. If we get a better, healthier LeBron then we should be a better team - but if we don't, and he continues to decline, then we'd have a problem.

Again, it's just too early to say, one way or another.
I
 
Where did I say that? I agree with you that we missed out there.
I appreciate your non combativebess but you laughed at the notion that we missed out on anyone a couple posts up (they're has been plenty of movement this offseaaon)and then followed with the possibility that we would not take jj bc we want andy. That just cannot spell any positive feelings about our front office or offseaaon.
 
Look no one is arguing were not great and that we won't get to the finals, but were at the level where anything other then the absolute best is a failure, and teams that were neck abd neck with us improved drastically. I would bet serious money on getting to the finals and i would bet less serious money we will lose ata that point
 
I appreciate your non combativebess but you laughed at the notion that we missed out on anyone a couple posts up (they're has been plenty of movement this offseaaon)and then followed with the possibility that we would not take jj bc we want andy. That just cannot spell any positive feelings about our front office or offseaaon.
Dude, I was making a fucking joke at your expense. If you'd appreciate I don't do that anymore I absolutely won't but it's usually how I act around here and nobody has said it's a problem. Again though, just tell me if you don't want me to do that to you and I won't.

I am having a hard time following your grammar/wording but let me make myself clear. Do I think we missed out on anyone who, individually, would've resulted in us winning a championship? Nope. I've said now twice in this thread and more in other ones that we punted on the JJ situation. But again, I doubt he makes a difference when it comes to winning or losing a championship. I even think David West and Joe Johnson don't make that difference. With that said, I think David West is one of the most overrated players. He would give us floor spacing but that conversation is neither here nor there.

Am I scared of the Warriors, Clippers, and Spurs? Yep, definitely! But I think with a healthy Kyrie, Lebron, and Love we easily take the first two. Spurs scare me equally this year as they did last year. It's a toss up series but I still take the Cavs. Maybe that last part is me being a homer, tho ;)

The reason players like JJ and DW would've been nice is they minimize damage we take from injury. But having watched those two players last year I really don't think they are difference makers on a healthy, championship team.
 
What moves(realistic ones available to us this offseason) make us better is ultimately an unknown.

Because we truly have no idea how a healthy Cavs team would have looked in the Finals.

If at full health we had won the Finals 4-1, then people would be ecstatic keeping that group in tact while adding Mo and likely a few other small pieces.

If at full health the W's beat us 4-3, we might think Mo is a good addition but worry we needed to do a little more.

There is just a lot of confusion and disagreement on what our base starting point is.

You have people who make their projections around the idea that Love, Irving, and Andy will always be hurt.

You have others who think that is highly unlikely.

Where you fall in that key argument has a lot to do with what you think we needed to do this offseason and how you compare our moves against the rest of the league.

I do think that there has been a lot of confusing other teams action at face value to our own, ignoring the fact that we started from a position of better depth and had an offseason mostly based around retaining our own guys.

The posters who have a wait and see approach to how our offseason should be graded and his our team stacks up, I respect.

@David. outlook is another story altogether. His approach belies an attitude that we had an entirely healthy team that had been together for 2-3 years and just couldn't keep up with the W's. From that perspective, I could see where his disappointment comes from. But it's a faulty perspective. He doesn't need to be enamored yet by our offseason, but the stance he's taking on it is either based on a faulty analysis of where we were/what we have or some other motivations.
 
I think the only concern most of us have is health. Given that's what cost us a title this year. If healthy, I don't fear anyone to the point where we can't win. I agree, SA will be tough, there's always challenges though if you're going to win a title.

We are capable of beating anyone when healthy though. That's the most important thing to remember.

Obviously, I think we all wanted to get deeper this off-season. We have already, but we all probably want at least that one more piece that can make us all feel more comfortable.

But, off-season isn't over. Last off season, I was pretty disappointed we didn't address the center position at all after the Love trade. It seemed like a petty complaint, given we had a great off-season obviously. Even if there wasn't a legit starting center available, I thought we dropped that ball at least not getting something, anything on the roster. Given I hated our options at center going into the season.

We saw how much that could have cost us, when Andy went down, given we had to probably overbid for Mozgov (it was well worth it in the end and I don't regret it at all), but if we weren't so desperate for a center period, not sure we'd absolutely need to give them both first round picks for him. Maybe, maybe not, but we'll never know.

That's just one example of how sometimes a team being desperate can come at a bigger cost though.


Luckily, we don't have any of those problems going into the season. Our entire starting unit is solified, most of our rotation off the bench is in check. We're basically just looking for table scraps to complete what we're going to display next year. That's not a bad position to be in.

Even if we turn Haywood into a TPE, which would be disappointing a bit, I don't feel we'll be potentially trading it out of desperation in need of help, like we did for Mozgov around the deadline last year.
 
Look no one is arguing were not great and that we won't get to the finals, but were at the level where anything other then the absolute best is a failure, and teams that were neck abd neck with us improved drastically. I would bet serious money on getting to the finals and i would bet less serious money we will lose ata that point

So basically you're upset that prior to the start of the season you don't feel comfortable betting 5,000 on the Cavs to win the finals?

And again, you do not know what teams were neck and neck with us because A: we only played the W's in the finals and B: Love and Irving were out.

The Spurs added LMA and West, but they lost Splitter, Joseph, and Belinelli. Surely it's a net gain for them but for you to just say it moves them way ahead of us is pure speculation. They are another year older and at best have equal depth to us, not superior depth.

The team that actually made the most gains this offseason was the Clippers. How all those new players translate and what it means in a matchup with us remains to be seen.

You continue to discount our own health, while assuming all the other top teams will operate at full health.

You continue to discount the jump that always happens to teams that were new to each other in year one, during year two.

You continue to devalue the addition of Mo while trumpeting the additions by other teams of similar 34+ year old gets who like Mo are good but also imperfect.
 
I'm texting while driving, but you can read what I'm writing just fine. Let's not be dramatic.

You very well could be the first person on the board to not get aggressive and personal in response to when i post that we did not do as well as i thought we should have, but yes, you would be the first.

Apologize if im frustrated and lashing out but as q Cleveland fan who gets lip service every season about every sport and pitched about how great everything is and how solid our plan is and that literally everything is going according to plan, it bothers me at the core that its happening again, most posters are believing the hype and this is the best shot we will have in many,many,many years.


Dude, I was making a fucking joke at your expense. If you'd appreciate I don't do that anymore I absolutely won't but it's usually how I act around here and nobody has said it's a problem. Again though, just tell me if you don't want me to do that to you and I won't.

I am having a hard time following your grammar/wording but let me make myself clear. Do I think we missed out on anyone who, individually, would've resulted in us winning a championship? Nope. I've said now twice in this thread and more in other ones that we punted on the JJ situation. But again, I doubt he makes a difference when it comes to winning or losing a championship. I even think David West and Joe Johnson don't make that difference. With that said, I think David West is one of the most overrated players. He would give us floor spacing but that conversation is neither here nor there.

Am I scared of the Warriors, Clippers, and Spurs? Yep, definitely! But I think with a healthy Kyrie, Lebron, and Love we easily take the first two. Spurs scare me equally this year as they did last year. It's a toss up series but I still take the Cavs. Maybe that last part is me being a homer, tho ;)

The reason players like JJ and DW would've been nice is they minimize damage we take from injury. But having watched those two players last year I really don't think they are difference makers on a healthy, championship team.
 
I'm texting while driving, but you can read what I'm writing just fine. Let's not be dramatic.

No, it is pretty difficult. Here is an example:

I appreciate your non combativebess but you laughed at the notion that we missed out on anyone a couple posts up (they're has been plenty of movement this offseaaon)and then followed with the possibility that we would not take jj bc we want andy.

The way I read this is "I appreciate your non-combativeness, but, you laughed at the notion that we missed out on anyone a couple posts up, and there has been plenty of movement this offseason. Then, you followed up with the possibility that we would not take JJ because we want Andy. [and here is where I need to make assumptions about what you are saying because your writing is difficult to follow] so you, therefore, are defending the front office's moves/lack thereof."

Hence, I respond saying that I never said that was a good move. In fact, I think we missed out on Joe Johnson. But I don't think that decision makes or breaks a championship.

You very well could be the first person on the board to not get aggressive and personal in response to when i post that we did not do as well as i thought we should have, but yes, you would be the first.

I'm really not an aggressive guy and don't take things personally. That's why I appreciate when people don't take my posts personally. I think you're a really good poster and there is no reason to take a disagreement personally.

Apologize if im frustrated and lashing out but as q Cleveland fan who gets lip service every season about every sport and pitched about how great everything is and how solid our plan is and that literally everything is going according to plan, it bothers me at the core that its happening again, most posters are believing the hype and this is the best shot we will have in many,many,many years.
I really do feel you, man. I lived in Cleveland my entire life before I moved for school and work. The lip service fucking blows. But I just do not see how trading for Joe Johnson and/or signing David West makes/breaks our chance for a championship. The main reason I am upset about the JJ situation is that, in the case of injury, he would have been a huge piece.
 
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