1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. From courtside seating to loudville Amazing Tickets offers a fantastic selection of Cavs tickets at the cheapest prices found anywhere.
  3. Please select the "Splash-Mobile" style if ads are breaking your tablet/phone's browser. You can find the style chooser on the bottom left of the website. - Ben

Cavs (absent) Defense (Lloyd/ABJ)

Discussion in 'Cavs Talk' started by wuck, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. wuck

    wuck Hustling on the inside Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    Messages:
    15,227
    Likes Received:
    40,495
    Some excerpts from Jason Lloyd's writeups after the road trip:

    Final thoughts: Nets 114, Cavs 101
    By Jason Lloyd

    The Cavs' defense has been atrocious all season (theoretically correctable). So has the bench (not so easy to fix).

    Scott grew tired of the bench's woes a few games ago and began shuffling the rotation, although it really didn't do any good. He has pounding the same defensive philosophies for the last three years, but nothing seems to be setting in.

    So is it a coaching problem or a personnel problem? Probably a little of both.

    The Cavs presently have the league's worst defense based on shooting percentage. Opponents are making 51 percent of their shots -- and the figure was even higher on this road trip (52 percent).

    Scott's teams have rarely been good defensively over the last seven years. Excluding his 2009-10 season in New Orleans, since he was fired just nine games in, Scott's teams have ranked in the top 10 in opponents' shooting percentage once in the last seven years.

    His Nets teams were very good defensively, but his Hornets teams were typically average. His Cavs teams have been atrocious.

    The Cavs have ranked 27th in the league in defensive field goal percentage both of Scott's years in charge. Improving defensively has been the focus of this team since summer league, yet somehow the Cavs are worse.

    It's still incredibly early, but no team has gone a whole season allowing an opponent to shoot better than 50 percent in 16 years. Celtics opponents shot 50 percent during the 1996-97 season, and not surprisingly, the Celtics won only 15 games.

    The Cavs still don't defend the pick and roll the way Scott would like, often going behind (or under) screens instead of in front of the screener (over the screen). They fail to box out on missed shots, allowing easy putbacks. And they too often chase the ball and lose their man defensively.

    All of it would seem to be easily fixed, but the Cavs have failed to do it for two full seasons and they're off to a lousy start in Year 3. Tristan Thompson was drafted to be a defensive presence, but he has been mediocre this year.

    Scouts have lamented Irving's lack of defense since he entered the league, and Irving conceded Tuesday he's playing at about a C level defensively. If he were being honest, Scott might grade him even lower.

    ...

    The bigger concern right now is the defense. There has been zero improvement, only regression. If it doesn't get any better, this team has no chance of competing against even the middle-of-the-pack teams in the NBA.

    ...

    Scott was furious with the defensive effort, which allowed the Nets to score 114 points and shoot 55 percent when they began the night averaging 93 points and shooting 43 percent.

    Opponents shot better than 50 percent from the floor in five of the six games on this trip, which is why Scott summed up the road trip as “terrible.”

    “There was nothing there defensively,” Scott said. “We’ve got to get more guys who are going to be competitive and passionate about the defensive end. Right now we’ve got three: Boobie [Daniel] Gibson, Alonzo Gee and Anderson Varejao. We’ve got to get other guys to join into the party. It’s as simple as that.”

    ...

    The fact that Scott left Irving off his list of those playing well defensively was telling. Scouts have been lamenting Irving’s defensive effort since the start of his career. Irving recently conceded in a recent interview his defense last season was lousy, but vowed this year would be different. Told of Scott’s comments, Irving agreed.

    “I’m probably a C right now,” Irving said. “Maybe I do need to climb on board.”

    ...

    Scott has complained a lot about the Cavs’ defensive effort over most of this trip. Now that they don’t have another game until Saturday, the majority of the focus in practice the next couple of days will be on the defensive end.

    “We’ve got three more days before our next game,” Scott said. “I can promise you we will work on it a hell of a lot the next three days. A hell of a lot.”
     
    18 people like this.
  2. schimmk

    schimmk Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    10
    Our team defense relies way too much on over helping. Sure it creates some turnovers but it often leads to multiple defenders being out of place and wide open shots for the offense
     
    5 people like this.
  3. mAo_mAo

    mAo_mAo NBA Starter

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,299
    Likes Received:
    2,602
    Boobie brings the intensity, alright. But if he is against a SG who is 3 to 5 inches bigger than him then it will be all for naught (Joe Johnson/ Rip H/ Kevin Martin).
     
  4. Kizzle

    Kizzle In the Rotation

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,260
    Likes Received:
    712
    I mean Kyrie has gotta be the 1st. If Kyrie does it I guarantee other guys will. This is his team and idk if he knows but the guys look up to him. It tells you what kinds leadership we have when both our vets bring it but no one cares. This is a new team......we need its new leader to go all out on D.....shooting 50% as a team is something very bad for us man. I don't think y'all understand what that means.....At 50% were basically not playing any D
     
  5. MYoung23

    MYoung23 12 Reasons to Post

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,684
    Likes Received:
    20,852
    Do people really expect a 20 year old to come into the league and in less than 82 games be able to lock down Russell Westbrook and Deron Williams?

    It doesn't work like that. Scott can demand anything he wants but 20 year olds are often bad defenders in the NBA.
     
    14 people like this.
  6. Soda

    Soda Bania'd

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,357
    Likes Received:
    6,448
    I said this in the Kyrie thread, but his game yesterday was the most discouraging I can remember. We all know he can hit Andy on the pick-n-roll, but last night was just hot-dogging. He coupled that with an albatross of a defensive showing and I wanted to throw up.
     
  7. Tornicade

    Tornicade High five!

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,683
    Likes Received:
    5,527
    You can see Waiters visibly improving defensively. You often see opponents just sitting wide open with irving getting maneuvered out of position by the teams offense like a pinball machine.

    Irvings defense is the main by product of his lack of college time but he is way below average defender for a 20 year old guard if thats where you are setting the bar.

    Gibson 6'3 size really hasnt been a detriment. we can only hope to get to that because that would me the rest of the team was actually taking the time to defend properly.

    Scott has also critisized th defense for over helping. typically coaches dont make comments like that when working by design.
     
  8. King James 23

    King James 23 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2009
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    34
    Gibson isnt 6'3 - im 6'2 took a pic with him im taller than him
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. theshad

    theshad In the Rotation

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    912
    Likes Received:
    690
    Do I expect him to be a lock down defender at 20? Of course not. Do I expect him to at least TRY on the defensive end? Hell yes I do.

    He doesn't even try to play defense most of the game. He constantly will just be standing around or when he gets caught in a screen give up on the opponent. He's even had a few plays that he hasn't bothered coming back to play defense, just hung out at half court waiting for the rest of the team to take care of it.
     
    3 people like this.
  10. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Guardian of the Cavaliers

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Messages:
    4,515
    Likes Received:
    1,206
    Interesting..some players are very good defensively coming out of school. Some aren't.
    The team as constructed isn't very good defensively but defense is a mindset.
    U have to want to play it and stop your man.
    Sure these guys will be taught to play it, but will they want to?
    But even the vets(bigs) on the team aren't good defensively...cept AV.
     
  11. pr26

    pr26 NBA Starter

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,221
    Likes Received:
    3,918
    I know, it blows my damn mind. Our 2nd year pg just dropped a career high of points in a game, is like 3rd or 4th in the whole NBA in scoring, and all people can focus on is his defensive shortcomings. He has the ability to be an adequate defender.....so why don't we give him time to develop it before we shit on him?
     
    3 people like this.
  12. pr26

    pr26 NBA Starter

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,221
    Likes Received:
    3,918
    If that was his most discouraging game you've ever seen from Irving, than I have no idea what to tell you. Expecting players to have complete games on both ends after the 8th game of the second season is terribly silly. If this fan base can't appreciate Irving's game right now, then you've never seen a young star.
     
    3 people like this.
  13. Free Agency God

    Free Agency God Birthing All-Stars

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    4,371
    Likes Received:
    4,688
    Fact is I don't think we've ever seen a point guard who can score like Kyrie can. The guy has scoring title potential, and not just that, but scoring title potential on elite shooting efficiency. Some appreciation has to come out of that.
     
    2 people like this.
  14. The Human Q-Tip

    The Human Q-Tip NBA Starter

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    3,387
    Likes Received:
    3,064
    Well, this article is specifically about the team's defense, so focusing on Irving's defense seems completely fair.

    As has been pointed out by others, the issue seems to be less his ability to be an adequate defender than his willingness to work at it. From the article:

    “I’m probably a C right now,” Irving said. “Maybe I do need to climb on board.”

    "Maybe"? I don't think there's really any maybe about it. Now, nobody is saying they want to get rid of Irving, or denying his talent on the offensive end. But there isn't anything wrong with holding off on his beatification until he shows a willingness to work defensively. As great as LBJ was offensively, even he got regularly criticized early in his career for a lack of defensive intensity. And deservedly so. So why should pointing out Irving's lack of effort on the defensive end be off limits?

    FWIW, I hope part of his problem is the energy he burns on the offensive end, and he coasts on the defensive end because he can't be going that speed on both ends of the court constantly. If that's the case, then getting him some offensive help should help him improve more on the defensive end.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  15. Wine and Gold

    Wine and Gold A View Inside the Game Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    4,181
    Likes Received:
    32,413
    Most notably with young teams like the Cavaliers, defense can really be negatively effected as long road trips wind down. The absence of good practice time, fatigue,... it's not something unexpected. Our defense was abysmal as this road trip wound down, and I'm sure will be getting addressed in a big way now that we are back home and can re-establish a practice schedule condusive to eliminating lots of the issues present. Kyrie has got to develop some level of resistance or he will not reach the great potential he has. He will be th4e best offensive point in the league, but must become at least adequate defensively..
     
    9 people like this.
  16. pr26

    pr26 NBA Starter

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,221
    Likes Received:
    3,918
    My response wasn't to the article at all. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. The article was very fair and I agree completely. My post was in regard to some in this thread and other game threads where people are truly overreacting over kyries defensive play. He's not a good defender yet, or even an adequate defender yet. I don't expect him to be. He's a 20 year old guard who is eight games into his 2nd year, one of the top 5 scorers in the league up to this point. I'm not going to be "dissapointed" when his defense looks like it's not there yet. Kyries play has set some unrealistic expectations on this board on what to expect from a sophomore pg.
     
  17. FiveThous

    FiveThous Redeux

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,349
    Likes Received:
    1,321
    I thought you were 6'8 260
     
    2 people like this.
  18. Czvosec

    Czvosec All-Star

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    6,108
    Likes Received:
    6,952
    Its not just about effort. There are games where I watch them and think, "Do they even know what the hell they are supposed to do defensively?" Last night was one of those games. It wasn't just Kyrie, though he was one of the main culprits. Thompson always seemed to be late on rotations, Alonzo got lost, Dion got lost... it was depressing watching Andy run around try to cover for everyone else.

    I don't know what the scheme is on the PnR (Byron says he wants them to fight through, fine), but Irving and Waiters get picked off way too easily. Even when Irving knows its coming, he still allows himself to get screened. If that's going to happen, the bigs are going to have to hedge hard, but it doesn't look like that's what Byron wants. Irving needs to stop allowing his man to dictate where he goes. If he sees the screen coming, shade closer to the ball-handler. The kid has no clue what to do when screened off the ball, and that should be concerning. I'm not saying he has to be an elite defender, but he's been in the league two years now. If he hasn't been taught what to do, then Byron needs to be held accountable for that.

    And I swear to God, I'm going to pull my hair out watching Tristan do anything. Offense, defense, free throws. He's got a long, long way to go
     
    1 person likes this.
  19. Rob

    Rob Best of the Land

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    9,423
    Likes Received:
    5,078
    Even if we had better defenders, we aren't going to win many games with the bench going -20. And it's not that the defense is scoring 10 points and giving up 30 in 5 minutes to start the 2nd and 4th quarters. They are scoring zero and letting up 20.
     
  20. MoFlo

    MoFlo Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    11,493
    Likes Received:
    23,069
    I don't think people are bashing Kyrie due to his defensive shortcomings, but the fact that he doesn't seem to be committed to that end of the floor. I think we all believe he can be better than what he actually is if he committed himself on that end, especially now that he's not the only backcourt scoring threat. There's really no reason why he shouldn't be busting his ass at all times on the defensive end.

    It's a fair worry at this point in time, as Byron was very vocal about him not being committed to the defensive end last season as well.
     
    2 people like this.

Share This Page