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Chief Wahoo Discussion

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Should Chief Wahoo Go?


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I had a conversation with my students about the organizations decision to end the mascot Chief Wahoo today. Seventh graders are studying world history and were overall apathetic to the subject. Some took the step to ask "what if there were stereotypes of Asians or another group, would you feel the same way?" The eighth grade takes U.S. history and they were more emphatic against the Chief because they just studied the Trail of Tears and other actions taken against the Native American people.

Of course one thing they all had in common is having no connection to the franchise. I really do see this as the final step: Fans who see the good the franchise has done for the spirits of the city accepting a different experience than their own. The Chief is really a unique centerpiece for the broader topic of empathy: the level to which you can understand someone else's experiences are as valuable as your own.

So I had a quick contest for a new logo. Lots of kids making bows and arrows, one baseball that says "Cleveland" across the ball, one teepee, one feather over an "I" and a "C". I'm interested to see if the team can create a new logo that is marketable... That is the only reason Wahoo made it this long... No suitable replacement caught on.

You know what they should do for a new logo?

Buy the feather logo from GVArtwork. It would look awesome on the sleeve to replace Chief Wahoo, and it builds good will with the community by supporting a local business.

edit: typed GVArtwork. Mean FreshBrewedTees
000506_Feather_rev_navy.jpg
 
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I'm still sure people that are against this entire subject will automatically be against arrows, feathers, tribes, etc. They want the name 'Indians' wiped.

Next year they won't be protesting Chief Wahoo, because it's gone, but they'll return to their work of protest with intention to finish the job. 'Change the name, change the logo'.

I'm over it though. I just don't give a fuck anymore. Call us the Fellers already.
 
I'm still sure people that are against this entire subject will automatically be against arrows, feathers, tribes, etc. They want the name 'Indians' wiped.

Next year they won't be protesting Chief Wahoo, because it's gone, but they'll return to their work of protest with intention to finish the job. 'Change the name, change the logo'.

I'm over it though. I just don't give a fuck anymore. Call us the Fellers already.

It's dangerous to assume what people want.

In my opinion, there is a significant difference between a racist caricature and symbols that do not hold any inherently racist meanings. If you want to argue that representing the "Indians" with a symbol that only applies to a specific subset of "Indians" (Native Americans) is inherently racist, I do not agree with that stance.

I think the name will probably change, eventually. But again, just because some people are protesting something doesn't mean they should sway your opinion. The goal of the organization shouldn't be to get rid of protesters just for the sake of getting rid of protesters.
 
I’ve said it a few times on this forum, love the idea of the Cleveland Guardians, when the “Indians” name is inevitably phased out. The Guardians of Traffic are an iconic part of Cleveland and it’s history. Think some very cool logos could come from the name and the statues.

As others have touched on, hard to see the team developing a logo in the meantime to go along with the Block C that doesn’t have a Native theme to it.
 
Flow chart to me is basically this.

Is the logo of Chief Wahoo racist?
Yes. I mean that's the broader consensus of it. In the same way if you really think on it, the "fighting irish" logo of ND is also offensive to people of an irish background.

This is not mean't for broad equivalency, rather the fact of the matter really.

Is the name "the indians" offensive?
Yes and no. It describes the success of one Alex Sockalexis, hence the name but it can be argued that it's describing a group of people. It's not a "slur" but one that just incorrectly describes a group of people.

Why are some (not all) native americans against the logo?

They perceive it as falsely portraying their culture and almost showing it in a cartoonish fashion.

This a group of people that have experienced quite a bit in terms of suffering at the hands of the french, british, american and canadian government. They had their lands stolen, among other horrible crimes that would pretty much be summed up as "genocide".

Why do some (not all) Clevelanders like the logo?

Because they don't view it in such terms. They view it in the same way one views an orange helmet or how one in St. Louis views a "cardinal"

They view a removal of the logo as an assault on their cleveland identity in quite a few ways.

When LeBron James is wearing the hat at given moments in recent memory? That pretty much tells you quite a bit about what it actually means to people. (LeBron is very outward in his stance on social political issues).

Should the logo be changed?

Sure. The logo doesn't personally offend me, but if there's a consensus reached amongst "First nations" people on the issue? I would say to change it.

I wouldn't do it based on AIM, but I would listen as a whole to the Native American community.

I also think this is a bandaid on a deep broken bone. I think to solve the problems that led to the creation of Chief Wahoo in the first place? We must encourage education of First Nation's people.

Also if it's preventing Cleveland from hosting the all-star game? I think it's far better for the city

Should the name?

If again? there's a general consensus? I'm not opposed to wearing a "Cleveland Buckeyes" hat some day in the near future.

That's pretty much the closest broad answer I can give to several people asking me on this.
 
I’ve said it a few times on this forum, love the idea of the Cleveland Guardians, when the “Indians” name is inevitably phased out. The Guardians of Traffic are an iconic part of Cleveland and it’s history. Think some very cool logos could come from the name and the statues.

As others have touched on, hard to see the team developing a logo in the meantime to go along with the Block C that doesn’t have a Native theme to it.

I can actually get down with that.
 
It's dangerous to assume what people want.

In my opinion, there is a significant difference between a racist caricature and symbols that do not hold any inherently racist meanings. If you want to argue that representing the "Indians" with a symbol that only applies to a specific subset of "Indians" (Native Americans) is inherently racist, I do not agree with that stance.

And what if some Native Americans believed that the name and/or a feather was racist?
 
And what if some Native Americans believed that the name and/or a feather was racist?

“Over the past few years, the pro-Wahoo movement has gotten even more momentum,” said Yenyo, who was joined outside the ballpark by more than two dozen protesters. “There is a local screen printing company putting out shirts that say, “Keep The Chief” and they don’t get it either. This company has also been coming up with new designs with dream catchers and eagle feathers. Those are sacred items.

“Like I’ve said before, I don’t go around desecrating the Christian cross and I don’t expect our religious or spiritual items to be desecrated either and that’s what a lot of people don’t get. They are so out of touch.”

Funny you mention that....
 
Funny you mention that....

Hence why I feel we need to work with the Native American tribes of Ohio/Nearby areas and work with them to design a new logo and also make it to where some of the sales goes back to the Native American communities.

Some people are like they will accept it because of the fact they are getting money for it only, but reading a ton of articles about this, a fair amount of Natives actually liked Wahoo and they also liked the fact it brought attention to the people in the right way. I always have seen Natives as the people who were spiritual and cherished the earth while being strong warriors. Why not find a way to incorporate something along those symbolism lines while making a new logo and helping out the community while you are at it?

I mean we could do a bear paw or use different symbols for different jerseys and sell the game worn ones to help support the community. Why not make it a win-win for both sides rather than just sit here and protest things which will not help benefit anyone?
 
Hence why I feel we need to work with the Native American tribes of Ohio/Nearby areas and work with them to design a new logo and also make it to where some of the sales goes back to the Native American communities

I'd like to do that and then to pay a "tax" to further fund native american charities, education on them

Since we are named "the indians" after Louis Sockalexis, why not try to find any sort of "ties" to that tribe and get this hammered out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Sockalexis

I don't know...I think it's cool that we have a pro baseball franchise named after a great player, and a pro football franchise named after a great coach. I like those elements of that.
 
I'd like to do that and then to pay a "tax" to further fund native american charities, education on them

Since we are named "the indians" after Louis Sockalexis, why not try to find any sort of "ties" to that tribe and get this hammered out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Sockalexis

I don't know...I think it's cool that we have a pro baseball franchise named after a great player, and a pro football franchise named after a great coach. I like those elements of that.

His tribes reserve was in Maine and his last name would be hard to use as well sadly. He was a player for the Spiders so that could be something they could use though for select games. He also was a guy who had issues with alcohol and whatnot. I don't think he would be the best guy to use sadly even if he did influence the name of the team. He did do some good things, but didn't end up having a career nor a personality that would help make him something of a legend in a way.

I just feel we work with the Native in northeastern Ohio and try to make a win-win for both parties at the end of the day. We don't need to change "Indians" we just need to find a way to make logos and whatnot that would benefit everyone at the end of the day.
 
I’ve said it a few times on this forum, love the idea of the Cleveland Guardians, when the “Indians” name is inevitably phased out. The Guardians of Traffic are an iconic part of Cleveland and it’s history. Think some very cool logos could come from the name and the statues.

As others have touched on, hard to see the team developing a logo in the meantime to go along with the Block C that doesn’t have a Native theme to it.

The bridge guardians have been like my favorite thing, ever. Bought the City edition Cavs jerseys as soon as I saw the side of the jersey.
 
For some reason, you failed to quote the second part of my post, which addressed this...

just because some people are protesting something doesn't mean they should sway your opinion

Just wanted to be sure. In other words, what some Native Americans say about Chief Wahoo shouldn't sway our opinions. We should form our opinions on Chief Wahoo and other logos independent of what some offended members of the group at issue say.

Hey, I agree.
 
I'd like to do that and then to pay a "tax" to further fund native american charities, education on them

Since we are named "the indians" after Louis Sockalexis, why not try to find any sort of "ties" to that tribe and get this hammered out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Sockalexis

I don't know...I think it's cool that we have a pro baseball franchise named after a great player, and a pro football franchise named after a great coach. I like those elements of that.

I believe this has been discussed earlier in the thread, but the idea that "Indians" was supposed to be named in honor of Louis Sockalexis has been studied by scholars. See this link for an article from the Sociology of Sport Journal in 1998 (click here for a link to the actual journal page to show this isn't just a random website---the first link just has the text for free).

I highlight the following section of the article:

According to a Cleveland press release, the renaming of the franchise was conducted through a contest run by a local newspaper, the winning entry being 'Indians', "...in honor of Louis Francis Sockalexis, a Penobscot Indian from Old Towne, Maine ..." ("Name/Logo Issue, November 15, 1995). In another Cleveland publication, the 1997 Indians Media Guide, an unidentified fan is credited with suggesting "Indians" as a posthumous tribute to Louis Sockalexis, the first American Indian ever to play in the major leagues.

A critical analysis of the story as presented by the Cleveland organization via press releases, media guides, and yearbook entries (all of which report essentially the same thing) beg a series of questions. The referenced newspaper contest itself gives rise to several queries. What was the name of the newspaper that played such a crucial role in renaming the team? Why was only one newspaper rather than the four that existed at the time included in the renaming process? 10 Would the exclusion of the other papers from the contest not have alienated supporters and writers from those papers? Additionally, in a time when the United States continued to implement governmental policy which stripped Native Americans of their culture and their freedom how likely would it have been that Sockalexis' ethnic background would have been viewed as something to be honored?11 (Sheppard, 1993).

In a review of sport sections of the Cleveland Leader, the Cleveland News, the Cleveland Plain Dealer, and the Cleveland Press from September, 1914 through March, 1915 the version of the story behind the renaming of the franchise differs markedly with the one presented by the Cleveland organization today. In early January of 1915, as the professional baseball community geared up for the spring season, Cleveland sportswriters were taking note of the departure of well-liked and much-admired marquee player, Napoleon Lajoie, while simultaneously recognizing the necessity to rename the team.

On January 6th, stories appeared in the Cleveland Plain Dealer and the Cleveland Press reporting the intention of Charley Somers, president of the team, to convene a conference of baseball writers for the purpose of selecting a new name. Dubbed the "nomenclature committee" by a Plain Dealer columnist known by the pen name of "The Second Cook" (January 9, 1915), the committee would meet nine days after Somers' proposed process had been announced and a name identified at that time.

In the intervening days between Somers' announcement and the January 15th meeting of the sportswriters, banter appeared in the papers regarding the renaming of the franchise12.The erroneous idea that a contest had been conducted to rename the team may stem from a headline in the Cleveland Press which reads "Fans Will Help Select New Nickname for the Naps" (January 7, 1915, p. 14). Electing to solicit suggestions from the fans to rename the "Napless-Naps", the sports editor from the Press explained that "Nicknames suggested will be submitted to the committee." In response to the invitation, fans reportedly submitted fifty seven recommendations for consideration ("57 Varieties of Names for Naps," January 12, 1915, p. 12).

Any link between the Press solicitation of fan suggestions and the eventual selection of the "Indians" name is difficult to discern from the accounts presented and appears improbable. The assertion that a fan recommended "Indians" to honor Louis Francis Sockalexis, although not impossible, has no evidentiary foundation in the articles chronicling fan or writer preferences. In three stories from the Press in which the results of the fan response were listed, "Indians" does not appear ("Fan Offers Scraps As Team Name," January 9, 1915; "Favors Old Nickname," January 11, 1915; "57 Varieties of Names of Naps," January 12, 1915).

In the January 17th edition of the Plain Dealer, a large cartoon featuring several figures in stereotypical Indian attire and headdress along with the caption "Ki Yi Wangh Woop! Their Indians!" was printed (Blosser, January 17, 1915). A short story situated below the cartoon reporting the outcome of the baseball writers meeting to select the new name, noted that "The title of Indians was their [baseball writers] choice, it having been one of the names applied to the old National league club of Cleveland many years ago" (January 17, 1915, Part Three, Page One).

Two aspects of the story are particularly salient. First, Sockalexis is not mentioned in the stories recounting the selection of the name. Second, the Plain Dealer reported that the nickname was "but temporarily bestowed" until such time as the team could "earn some other cognomen which may be more appropriate" ("Baseball Writers Select...", January 17, 1915, Part Three, Page One). This statement does not support the notion that the name was intended to permanently pertain to the team let alone permanently honor a figure who did not warrant mention at the time the selection was announced.

The revelation that a fan's fond reminiscence of Sockalexis was not the driving force behind the adoption of the "Indians" name relieves Cleveland's story of its cloak of authority, revealing in its stead several problems. Perhaps nowhere is the problematic of this discovery revealed more sharply than when Cleveland asserts in their publications that "the memory of Louis Francis Sockalexis was not forgotten in 1914 and that he continues to be remembered today" ("Name/Logo Issue," November 15, 1995; 1997 Cleveland Indians Media Guide).

In 1992, Native American scholar and author Michael Dorris wrote that Native imagery in sport obscured reality by serving as "opaque curtains, solid walls of white noise." When considered through the lens Dorris describes, the tidiness of Cleveland's explanation for the origin of their name masks not only their own motivations. It also masks the complexity of who Sockalexis was and the texture of his experience as an Indian playing in the major leagues in the late 1890s. One might speculate that if Cleveland really intended to "acknowledge and foster the legacy of Louis Francis Sockalexis" as they claim ("Name/Logo Issue," November 15, 1995), this part of the story is what they would seek to tell. Noticeably, apart from Sockalexis' status as the first American Indian to play professional baseball, Cleveland publications offer very little insight into who Sockalexis was or what his experience as a player was like.
 
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