Cleveland Indians 2018-2019 Offseason Outlook

[Kevalier]

As of today, using Steamer projections, the Indians offense is projected a slash line of: .254/.334/.423

A .757 OPS would have been the 6th highest in the league last year, tied with the Rockies. A whopping 9 points lower than the Indians OPS last season. And keep in mind projections error on the low side as well.

The names may not be there like in previous years, but people are severely underrating the Indians lineup right now. Ramirez and Lindor is as good of a 1-2 bunch in baseball, which alone makes the Indians lineup better than league average.

And they aren't done this off season either, if some of the stuff being tossed around is legit...

Out of curiosity, what would you deem an acceptable and realistic package from San Diego for Kluber?

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Sure it does. It’s inherent within the statement. If you can’t see that, I don’t know what to tell you.
When you present flippant, patronizing responses, expect the same in return.

Inductive logic at its finest

 

[BimboColesHair]

Out of curiosity, what would you deem an acceptable and realistic package from San Diego for Kluber?

Acceptable?

A top pitching prospect in AA ball or higher, a solid hitting prospect, an MLB ready bat at a position of need with 4-5 years of cheap team control left, and a solid reliever with a couple years of arbitration left.

So something like Logan Allen, Josh Naylor, Franmil Reyes, and someone like Kirby Yates.

Realistic?

None of the names mentioned as trade targets by media members have seemed realistic from the Indians point of view, so it's hard to say. I do believe the reports that say they are looking for an absolute haul for either Kluber or Bauer, I've heard this through multiple outlets, but it's hard to think of something realistic considering what's been said to this point.

I think the most realistic thing currently is Kluber and Bauer are both on the Indians roster come Opening Day.

 

[chuck0609]

Thanks

 

[chuck0609]

Inductive logic at its finest

You say this as if a message board is prohibitive of inherent reasoning.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

You say this as if a message board is prohibitive of inherent reasoning.

Jason Kipnis gave a quote to a media member after losing a playoff series.

It would be foolish to hold that up as truth of anything. He's just giving them an answer so he can move on with things.

Yet, somehow, you're trying to use that as proof of your pre-made conclusion, when he doesn't even say the things you claim.

Do you think that's reasonable?

 

[chuck0609]

Jason Kipnis gave a quote to a media member after losing a playoff series.

It would be foolish to hold that up as truth of anything. He's just giving them an answer so he can move on with things.

Yet, somehow, you're trying to use that as proof of your pre-made conclusion, when he doesn't even say the things you claim.

Do you think that's reasonable?

It was a series of thoughts by him concerning the team and the series. Why exactly wouldn’t it carry an value?

To say it was nothing is shortsighted, at the very least.

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

Who is going tell Bill about the last 20 years...?

So this starts the ultimate chicken v egg argument about fan support

Fans have been offput by what has happened with our franchise players over the last 20 years and don’t trust that the same thing won’t happen with our current ones. And it doesn’t help that there are actual real life human beings out there that believe we have a chance at keeping Lindor. So Lindor will leave and fans will hate the Dolans even more

So I don’t buy the argument of the Dolans would spend if only fans would attend becaus the way I see it, the fans stopped attending because ownership never paid the franchise players and fans don’t support it

Now listen, this isn’t to make an argument about whether the trades we have made have worked out. It’s also not an argument about whether it’s right or wrong to blame the “players” (owners) or the “game” (baseball’s shitty setup). I just think it’s a shitty excuse that the Dolans don’t spend because people don’t show up. I think it’s the exact opposite. After decades of watching every franchise player we have had go elsewhere people don’t want to get invested

Whether Indians fans should be mad at baseball or the Dolans who cares, my point is Indians fans through the years have gotten fed up

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

Sack up and re-sign Lindor and all will be forgotten.

This is exactly my point

This is not accepting the reality and it will end up with fans irate with the Dolans

But pretty much anyone who understands the terrible system in place and how shitty baseball is for small market teams has known for years now Lindor has no shot at all of being retained

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

He would know we couldn’t improve anymore.

Like Lindor gives a shit about that

Highest bidder. Like just about everyone in baseball besides Carassco

 

[Steve_424]

So this starts the ultimate chicken v egg argument about fan support

Fans have been offput by what has happened with our franchise players over the last 20 years and don’t trust that the same thing won’t happen with our current ones. And it doesn’t help that there are actual real life human beings out there that believe we have a chance at keeping Lindor. So Lindor will leave and fans will hate the Dolans even more

So I don’t buy the argument of the Dolans would spend if only fans would attend becaus the way I see it, the fans stopped attending because ownership never paid the franchise players and fans don’t support it

Now listen, this isn’t to make an argument about whether the trades we have made have worked out. It’s also not an argument about whether it’s right or wrong to blame the “players” (owners) or the “game” (baseball’s shitty setup). I just think it’s a shitty excuse that the Dolans don’t spend because people don’t show up. I think it’s the exact opposite. After decades of watching every franchise player we have had go elsewhere people don’t want to get invested

Whether Indians fans should be mad at baseball or the Dolans who cares, my point is Indians fans through the years have gotten fed up

The Indians were 28th in attendance - 19,650 per game - in 2016, the year they made it to the World Series. That offseason, they gave Edwin Encarnacion the richest free agent deal in team history. Cleveland moved up to 22nd overall - 25,285 per game - in 2017. In 2018 they were 21st overall athough average attendance dipped to 24,083.

This is all to say that the Dolans have given the city a team with 3 straight Division Champions and a World Series run and the city has responded with bottom 10 attendance all three years. "If you build it, they will come" might have worked in Iowa, but it didn't in Cleveland.

 

[Steve_424]

Like Lindor gives a shit about that

Highest bidder. Like just about everyone in baseball besides Carassco

Lindor doesn't want to be here beyond his contract, so it wouldn't matter if we had the $ or not.

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

The Indians were 28th in attendance - 19,650 per game - in 2016, the year they made it to the World Series. That offseason, they gave Edwin Encarnacion the richest free agent deal in team history. Cleveland moved up to 22nd overall - 25,285 per game - in 2017. In 2018 they were 21st overall athough average attendance dipped to 24,083.

This is all to say that the Dolans have given the city a team with 3 straight Division Champions and a World Series run and the city has responded with bottom 10 attendance all three years. "If you build it, they will come" might have worked in Iowa, but it didn't in Cleveland.

This doesn’t combat my point though

The Indians have done a terrific job of drafting and put together a great team

That doesn’t mean fans who get very emotionally invested in particular players trust that when the time comes that those players will be retained

Let me put it this way: in some hypothetical miracle world where we retained Lindor and Ramirez I would expect the relationship between the Dolans and fans to recover more than if we were to literally win a World Series next year

 

[Stark]

Bunting ALWAYS lowers your run expectancy in an inning. Kill it. Kill it with fire.

Here's my question then (I'm not super versed in analytics like you are):

Say the batters due up in the inning for the Tribe are Leonys Martin, Roberto Perez, and then top of the order, Frankie Lindor.

Martin hits a leadoff single and is a pretty solid runner (roughly top-5 on the Indians in speed last season). IF (the big if) Roberto Perez can execute the bunt, wouldn't you rather take that, guarantee that Martin gets to second (and that Perez doesn't hit into a double play) and let Lindor/Santana/Ramirez get the chance to knock him in from scoring position? None of them are now at serious risk for hitting into an inning ending double play either.

Now if the players in the situation were different, lets say that Lindor hits the leadoff single here and has Santana and Ramirez following him. Those two are obviously far better hitters than Perez, so you'd let them swing away and let the cards fall where they may.

My question I guess is, if you have a guy who was awful at the dish last year like Perez at the plate with no outs and the leadoff guy is on, is it seriously a lower chance at a run if you burn the out to guarantee the leadoff man goes to second and then let the lineup flip over for your good hitters to have two outs to get him in? There's a solid chance that Perez is striking out, hitting a weak pop, or into a double play and the runner at first is stranded there anyways or eliminated.

I might have worded that confusingly, but that was my line of thinking.

@BimboColesHair @AZ_ @Derek

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

It was a series of thoughts by him concerning the team and the series. Why exactly wouldn’t it carry an value?

To say it was nothing is shortsighted, at the very least.

1) It's a throwaway comment to the media
2) I never said his comment holds no value
3) You claim that "intensity" and "enthusiasm" are the reason we lost in the playoffs the last two years. Does that claim and this quote you're relying on sound equal?

“We were just outplayed," said. "I wish it weren't that simple. It just seems from top to bottom we were out-scouted, out-pitched, out-coached a little bit. They really did just a fantastic job over there of being ready and prepared before the series.”

Like, come on. Engage other people honestly, or there's really no point in having this discussion.