Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

[Birdy89]

Shabazz Muhammad is a 2 at the next level.

He's been playing out of shape and overweight and he's been relying more on his jumper than anything through UCLA's early season. His athleticism while overweight has been average for NCAA standards, and below average for NBA standards.

As conference play kicks in and as McLemore keeps getting shine at Kansas for playing and delivering like we expected Shabazz to be doing, I fully expect Shabazz to kick it into gear. They said that he lost/is losing 20lbs to get into playing shape... sounds more like Waiters coming off Summer League than a guy who is looking to adjust to a heavier weight so he can be a horribly undersized 3 with average athleticism.

His style of play is more grounded, like a Harden type of 2 guard without the same level of playmaking.

Yeah. Almost every analyst I have seen project him as a 2 in the NBA. As you said, doesn't have the athleticism/size to guard the elite 3's in the NBA once he works his way down to what is his realistic playing weight.

The last thing we need to be doing is taking guys in the draft with the hopes they can play a position that isn't the one they are naturally best suited for.

How is Shabazz supposed to guard the Lebrons/Melos/Durants/Gays and other big SF's in the NBA? He can't carry a higher weight, and would be terribly undersized (regardless of reach) at 6'5 and about 205 (his ideal playing weight)?

I think he will be a good pro, but he is a shooting guard, and we have one of those already.

 

[The Process God]

Shabazz Muhammad is a 2 at the next level.

He's been playing out of shape and overweight and he's been relying more on his jumper than anything through UCLA's early season. His athleticism while overweight has been average for NCAA standards, and below average for NBA standards.

As conference play kicks in and as McLemore keeps getting shine at Kansas for playing and delivering like we expected Shabazz to be doing, I fully expect Shabazz to kick it into gear. They said that he lost/is losing 20lbs to get into playing shape... sounds more like Waiters coming off Summer League than a guy who is looking to adjust to a heavier weight so he can be a horribly undersized 3 with average athleticism.

His style of play is more grounded, like a Harden type of 2 guard without the same level of playmaking.

I am not really sure how you could say that when I just showed with objective, undeniable stats that Shabazz is not undersized for the 3.

There also seems to be a misunderstanding concerning his weight.

His weight was 225 back in April of this year when he was still playing basketball. He had been playing at that weight all his senior year of high school. This was before he got out of shape, meaning he weighed in at 225 in shape at the Nike Hoop Summit. Shabazz weighed in at 235 coming into UCLA. Now he is down to 222, roughly his playing weight from high school and still above average weight for a small forward. Who said that Shabazz was planning on losing 20 lbs? I'll believe it when I read it or see it.

Also, shooting guards are generally more agile and quicker than 3s, so, if Shabazz doesn't have the athleticism for the 3, then how would he have the athleticism to guard the 2? If you're referring to strength and size, see above. He also used his body well all throughout high school as a physical player. Now that he's back in shape, we'll likely see more of that.

And Birdy, you know height doesn't weigh in as much as standing reach and wingspan, both of which Shabazz excels in. 6'11.25" wingspan is above average and his standing reach is only .3" lower than average. Again, see above on how his playing weight is at 225.

Also, who does shut down those guys? What SF weighs 270 other than LeBron? What SF has a standing reach of 9'2" other than Durant? No one. No one is going to stop those guys from getting their points. If Shabazz's ideal playing weight is in the 225 range, then it looks a lot better than 205. You can play SF at 225. That's just ridiculous. He already dropped down to 222 from 235, and he had been playing at that weight all his senior year. He wasn't playing 30 lbs overweight up until now.

It may very well end up being that he plays SG in the NBA, but he'd be one big-ass shooting guard, and that's great. But his talent may be too much to pass up. What then? Keeping Waiters at back-up minutes at the 1 and 2 would give him 24 minutes a game, which would be a waste. That, and do we really want to bench Waiters? I'm just putting out the argument that he is by no means undersized at the SF position so that, if we did draft him, we could use him as a small forward.

 

[daytripper]

If Shabazz is the highest rated player on their board I hope they take him regardless of his position. Tbh I believe Len, Noel or even someone like Porter could be higher on the Cavs board when all is said and done due to their advanced metrics and positional value.

With that said I believe Shabazz can play SF in today's NBA. From what I've seen he is strong as an ox which would be to his advantage against some of the taller SF's. LeBron and even Melo to an extent are being asked to occasionally play PF so don't see why Shabazz couldn't play SF for stretches. Wingspan is more important than height when it comes to perimeter players and he has the standing reach to post up a little bit against some SF's although clearly he would be more effective doing it against SG's. Despite not having quite the ideal height I would still take him 10 times out of 10 over Harrison Barnes who is supposedly the perfect height to play SF. Maybe Bazz could split his time between SF and SG just as I believe Dion will eventually split some minutes between SG and backup PG. His measurables and motor do compare somewhat favorably with MKG although of course Bazz is a much better shooter.

 

[The Process God]

If Shabazz is the highest rated player on their board I hope they take him regardless of his position. Tbh I believe Len, Noel or even someone like Porter could be higher on the Cavs board when all is said and done due to their advanced metrics and positional value.

With that said I believe Shabazz can play SF in today's NBA. From what I've seen he is strong as an ox which would be to his advantage against some of the taller SF's. LeBron and even Melo to an extent are being asked to occasionally play PF so don't see why Shabazz couldn't play SF for stretches. Wingspan is more important than height when it comes to perimeter players and he has the standing reach to post up a little bit against some SF's although clearly he would be more effective doing it against SG's. Despite not having quite the ideal height I would still take him 10 times out of 10 over Harrison Barnes who is supposedly the perfect height to play SF. Maybe Bazz could split his time between SF and SG just as I believe Dion will eventually split some minutes between SG and backup PG. His measurables and motor do compare somewhat favorably with MKG although of course Bazz is a much better shooter.

I believe Shabazz could be a SF/SG and he would likely be one on our team. There are 144 minutes to be had between the PG, SG, and SF positions per game. If Kyrie, Dion, and Shabazz are all playing roughly 36 minutes a piece, then Kyrie will take 36 minutes at PG, Dion will take 24 minutes at SG and 12 minutes at PG, and Shabazz can play 12 minutes at SF and 24 minutes at SG. Then Gee or someone can have 36 minutes at the 3. That way, all 3 guys can start AND get their full minutes.

I'm hoping Len keeps his play up or even takes it a step further. Man, would it be nice to have a center like him.

 

[MD13]

If we really want to compete for championships, the question we should be asking ourselves is "can shabazz compete against the lebrons, carmelos and durants of the nba?" I just don't see it so far. He'd be at a huge size, strength, and athleticism disadvantage against any of them. Much rather have him play SG where his body is much more suited for.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I am not really sure how you could say that when I just showed with objective, undeniable stats that Shabazz is not undersized for the 3.

Its not stats Guitar, its play.

I cant stress that enough man. You just have to watch him play. Guys like Derozan or the aforementioned McLemore can get away with playing the 3 because of their athleticism on both sides of the floor. Muhammad guarding 3's would be like Harden guarding 3's. He plays a sit down/squatting style of D that allows him to stay with quick guards laterally and recover to contest vertically because of his size.

Measurements are cool, but watch his style of play.

 

[gourimoko]

Yeah. Almost every analyst I have seen project him as a 2 in the NBA. As you said, doesn't have the athleticism/size to guard the elite 3's in the NBA once he works his way down to what is his realistic playing weight.

The last thing we need to be doing is taking guys in the draft with the hopes they can play a position that isn't the one they are naturally best suited for.

How is Shabazz supposed to guard the Lebrons/Melos/Durants/Gays and other big SF's in the NBA? He can't carry a higher weight, and would be terribly undersized (regardless of reach) at 6'5 and about 205 (his ideal playing weight)?

I think he will be a good pro, but he is a shooting guard, and we have one of those already.

We do? Who? Dion Waiters?

Not hating, but he's a rookie guard and we have no idea what he might become. I think it's completely legitimate to target a shooting guard either in the draft or free agency (if one were to become available) if they were BPA. Waiters hasn't earned anything to ward off competition, and in fact, he might be better coming off the bench as a combo guard.

 

[Birdy89]

We do? Who? Dion Waiters?

Not hating, but he's a rookie guard and we have no idea what he might become. I think it's completely legitimate to target a shooting guard either in the draft or free agency (if one were to become available) if they were BPA. Waiters hasn't earned anything to ward off competition, and in fact, he might be better coming off the bench as a combo guard.

We have zero front line capability right now. We desperately need a PF/C that can score and defend because Andy is not getting any younger. Zeller and TT are good long term backups, but it is time to start getting some guys in here that can be viable starters on what we hope is a championship contending team down the road.

That is a much bigger need than another scoring guard.

 

[gourimoko]

We have zero front line capability right now. We desperately need a PF/C that can score and defend because Andy is not getting any younger. Zeller and TT are good long term backups, but it is time to start getting some guys in here that can be viable starters on what we hope is a championship contending team down the road.

That is a much bigger need than another scoring guard.

What of BPA?

I see the Cavs roster as Kyrie Irving and 4 open slots. Waiters might fill a role sooner or later, but I think the Cavs should draft whoever is the best player possible (except a pure PG, obviously). If that happens to be a big, then great, but if not, then so be it.

 

[The Oi]

I'm with gourimoko and what Rchfld's usual stance is...BPA all the way right now.

There is nobody not named Kyrie that has done enough to justify being the only player drafted at their respective position. Not Waiters and certainly not Tristan.

And goddamit, MKG put up a monster line the other night. Still not sure of exactly what he'll be in the league, but an Iguodala or Artest type of player (different games obviously) doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.

I love that he never takes threes. Dude is old school.

 

[Birdy89]

I am usually a BPA guy, but the lack of any kind of post presence is making life harder on Kyrie than it needs to be, and giving him yet another guard is not going to help that.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I am usually a BPA guy, but the lack of any kind of post presence is making life harder on Kyrie than it needs to be, and giving him yet another guard is not going to help that.

I agree... however, its BPA outside of PGs all the way for me this year.

I came away from the last two #4's feeling like we left BPA on the board trying to draft for fit/scheme. I truly think it comes down to draft position, as it should. Whoever the BPA is outside of a PG, I want. Same for last year. Its why I dont even bat an eye at Lillard and what he is doing, though we drafted his twin and are asking him to play out of position before he settles in to his combo 6th man role.

Bazz, Len, Noel, McLemore, Cody

In that order

 

[Birdy89]

I agree... however, its BPA outside of PGs all the way for me this year.

I came away from the last two #4's feeling like we left BPA on the board trying to draft for fit/scheme. I truly think it comes down to draft position, as it should. Whoever the BPA is outside of a PG, I want. Same for last year. Its why I dont even bat an eye at Lillard and what he is doing, though we drafted his twin and are asking him to play out of position before he settles in to his combo 6th man role.

Bazz, Len, Noel, McLemore, Cody

In that order

Admittedly part of it is my on going disgust at passing on Drummond last year, and that is part of the reason I want no part of yet another guard while we have a gaping hole that is our front line.

I think of what life would be like in a few years with a guy like Drummond having developed with Kyrie and I just don't want to be passing on high ceiling bigs to take more scoring guards.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Admittedly part of it is my on going disgust at passing on Drummond last year, and that is part of the reason I want no part of yet another guard while we have a gaping hole that is our front line.

I think of what life would be like in a few years with a guy like Drummond having developed with Kyrie and I just don't want to be passing on high ceiling bigs to take more scoring guards.

I get that, and trust me, I agree on Drummond.

If Muhammad had been in last years draft, I still would have preferred Drummond to him. However, I dont see a big with Drummonds rare potential/nba ready D in this draft enough to pass on Muhammad. As much as I like Len and Noel and think they are swing for the fences kind of guys, I think both are a notch below Anthony Davis and Drummond on potential. Then I think Cody is a safer bet but much lower on star potential than Len and Noel, though I could see the Zellers together being pretty marketable (just about as important as production in todays NBA, which makes me sick).

If we pass on Muhammad as a result of drafting Waiters, it would be an instant replay of passing on Drummond and TRob just because we already had their perfect backup in TT.

Cant do that twice in a row. This and next draft are the last two for this rebuild to set its core with lottery picks of our own. I think we have to go BPA.

 

[Birdy89]

If we pass on Muhammad as a result of drafting Waiters, it would be an instant replay of passing on Drummond and TRob just because we already had their perfect backup in TT.

Part of the reason I think drafting Shabazz would be off the board entirely is because of Chris Grant.

Even if he is BPA, taking a SG in the top 5 one year after taking a SG in the top 5 would be an indictment on him, and he won't have that.

As you said, we stayed away from anyone at TT's position because of a similar idea (IMO).

Taking players at the same position so high the next year gives the perception publicly that you missed on the pick, and he is too arrogant to let that happen.

He is the type that IMO would rather reach for someone at a position of need than give the impression he missed on a pick, which would turn into a discussion on his competence and whether he is doing a good job on the rebuild.

His great trades have given him a free pass on what can be considered questionable talent evaluation skills. His goal is to keep it that way for as long as possible.