Controversy surrounds firing of Marines' female recruit battalion CO

[Sebastian]

At one point in our history, not long before 2003, our military's sole purpose was to win wars....

 

[Soda]

At one point in our history, not long before 2003, our military's sole purpose was to win wars....

Very true. I think you'd agree that it doesn't mean they're unable to do better, though. Some things that may have been standard in the military might not be necessary for winning wars. Those same things could be pretty offensive in our society now.

 

[Sebastian]

Very true. I think you'd agree that it doesn't mean they're unable to do better, though. Some things that may have been standard in the military might not be necessary for winning wars. Those same things could be pretty offensive in our society now.

Fair point. But, what do you specifically have in mind?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Amry , Navy , Marines, and air force all should have different standards . they serve different functions

If the Marines say "women shouldn't be in infantry units because they didn't meet our standards" but the Army says "we're okay with women in our infantry units because they passed all ours", that obviously creates some significant interservice/morale issues. It kind of gets beyond jokes at that point.

This papa company for instance should be investigated. The CO made a serious charge when she cited their interference on her command. if this doesnt happen between male divisions then it shouldnt happen between male and female decisions

Well, it was investigated. And the people who "interfered" included her commanding officer, later upheld by the commanding general. And frankly, those guys are allowed to "interfere". No CO or CG gives their subordinates carte blanche.

What I think makes it so interesting is that she's right, but doctrinally/politically, nobody wants to acknowledge that many/most males in the combat arms will adversely judge people (male or female) who can't meet their physical standards. So when she says "men won't respect you if you can't keep up", well, yes. There's some truth in that. With the one mixed-gender training unit I was in, we kind of all rolled our eyes when all the women had already fallen out of the column after a few miles. But you wouldn't say anything about it in the open because it just wasn't productive.

Statistically, the average female soldier/Marine isn't going to be able to keep up with the average male soldier/Marine. So when that Lt.Col says that the men won't respect you, it amounts to an institutional admission that the men won't completely respect the women. And nobody wants to go there, including the branches themselves. So when she says that stuff, she is essentially undermining policy to some extent, even though she's correct. And if she won't stop saying it....it'll be a problem.

 

[Tornicade]

If the Marines say "women shouldn't be in infantry units because they didn't meet our standards" but the Army says "we're okay with women in our infantry units because they passed all ours", that obviously creates some significant interservice/morale issues. It kind of gets beyond jokes at that point.



Well, it was investigated. And the people who "interfered" included her commanding officer, later upheld by the commanding general. And frankly, those guys are allowed to "interfere". No CO or CG gives their subordinates carte blanche.

What I think makes it so interesting is that she's right, but doctrinally/politically, nobody wants to acknowledge that many/most males in the combat arms will adversely judge people (male or female) who can't meet their physical standards. So when she says "men won't respect you if you can't keep up", well, yes. There's some truth in that. With the one mixed-gender training unit I was in, we kind of all rolled our eyes when all the women had already fallen out of the column after a few miles. But you wouldn't say anything about it in the open because it just wasn't productive.

Statistically, the average female soldier/Marine isn't going to be able to keep up with the average male soldier/Marine. So when that Lt.Col says that the men won't respect you, it amounts to an institutional admission that the men won't completely respect the women. And nobody wants to go there, including the branches themselves. So when she says that stuff, she is essentially undermining policy to some extent, even though she's correct. And if she won't stop saying it....it'll be a problem.

Your debating standards between different military services. if they have diferent standards for their men then they should also have corresponding standards for the women.

i have no interesting in debating what those standards should be.

as far as the CO her allegations were that the actions of the papa company were inappropriate implying there was some differences in how those complaints were handled by that company than complaints they might received from other companies

meaning if a man had gone to that company complaining. the results would of been different.

that in no way means the same as Carte Blanche and lack of accountability.

im not really sure how you can interpret " if The women were reporting their complaints to a different male company and the other males companies did not follow this processed this is something that should be looked into as the CO should have complete carte blanch with no oversight.

The CO was charged with creating unnecessary tension within command and the CO countered that the Male company was in fact creating that tension by pandering to the minority complaint ants.

seems like a lot of Damsel in distress syndrome going on here . Of course the Papa company is gonna find it ridiculous for a female CO to expect her female unit to keep up with their unit within a reasonable pace.

Germanos mistake was filing a a complaint

ermano had filed a complaint alleging a hostile work environment and gender discrimination. That prompted an investigation by Marine Corps Training and Education Command, which found no evidence to support the allegations.

The MTEC found non of this existed yet the environment re investigated against the CO found a hostiele environment suddenly and it was all her fault.

Looks like clear cut retaliation.

CO told the women if they drank they were subjecting themselves to sexual assault. They were told Men would not take orders and would treat them as inferioir if they couldnt physically do the job they were being trained for.. The CO was garnering results and none of these complaints seem outside reason ability for a military training environment.


Following her dismissal, Germano sent a letter to her battalion, saying the unit excelled in the face of strong opposition.

"Despite considerable active and passive resistance throughout all echelons of the Recruit Depot and the Marine Corps, we each worked incredibly hard to improve the performance of our recruits to make them stronger, faster, smarter and better shots -- all to better the institution," she wrote.

Germano is now petitioning Congress for redress, saying she was treated unjustly by Parris Island superiors, the Times said.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Uh, you win Torn. I couldn't follow that.

 

[The Oi]

Two things:

(1) one of the hottest women I've ever seen was in the Air Force. Looked like Giada Delauentiis without the crazy eyes and more reasonable forehead.

(2) anyone seen the Amy Schumer bit where she's playing a military video game and chooses to follow the female option? Fucking hilarious and relevant to this thread.

If you losers want to see it, you'll need to go out and find it on your own.

 

[Tornicade]

well i hate winning so ill try again.

Gemano
-was part of an administrative council that tried a soldier for sexual assault.
-soldier was found not guilty of rape but guilty of lesser charges.. The council including germano despit pressure stopped a court martial due to insufficient evidence.
- Germano filed a Complaint against her commanding officer and parris island leadership for creating a hostile work environment
-Claim was investigated and found groundless
-A comand survey was conducted one that could be taken multiple times where a vocal minority issued complaints.
- An investigation ensued.
- This time it was determined there was a hostile work environment whereas the prior investigation requested by Genarmo herself within the same year had determined there was none.

so what were Gernarmo's major sins of this investigtion
- essentially advising Women they could impact the likelyhood of sexual assault by their conduct and not putting themselves in positions to be victims of such assaults.
- Stating that Women would not be respected if they did not perform to the same/simliar standards of men and that if put in a position of rank would likely see their orders ignored.

The CO is training these soldiers for combat and the risk associated with combat.. Should they be made to feel "safe". Is combat safe.

are the Men co's held to this standard with male soldiers?

The Brigadier General essentially confirmed what the CO was saying. Her expectation for the women to perform better was met with resistance on multiple levels. Even Her expectation and improvement with the soldiers shooting scores was met with resistance in implementation.

I dont think congress will agree with the military on this one. This Officer wasnt asking the trainees to meet any guidelines she couldnt meet herself.. hell that a 40 year old out of shape male who smokes can meet.

These women dont need to be strong or fast as a man but they do need to be able to pull themselves out of a fox hole. March for hours with equipment and be able to protect themselves. If they cant. thats more bodybags in the event of war.
This isnt hazing. its not code red but how can these women soldiers be reasonably expected to handle a pow situation if they feel less safe when someone tells them the truth.

theres things that can be done.. extend the basic training period for women if more time is needed to get them up to par. implement new training programs that are more suited for women biology.. heck you can goto 40 gyms and find 40 different training regimens surely the military can figure out one effective for women.

This case just proves Gonarmo right. The Military does not respect the women. they do believe them inferior otherwise why would they find someone with expectations that these women be able to take care of themselves in combat situations as troublesome and unreasonable.

 

[Sebastian]

well i hate winning so ill try again.

Gemano
-was part of an administrative council that tried a soldier for sexual assault.
-soldier was found not guilty of rape but guilty of lesser charges.. The council including germano despit pressure stopped a court martial due to insufficient evidence.
- Germano filed a Complaint against her commanding officer and parris island leadership for creating a hostile work environment
-Claim was investigated and found groundless
-A comand survey was conducted one that could be taken multiple times where a vocal minority issued complaints.
- An investigation ensued.
- This time it was determined there was a hostile work environment whereas the prior investigation requested by Genarmo herself within the same year had determined there was none.

so what were Gernarmo's major sins of this investigtion
- essentially advising Women they could impact the likelyhood of sexual assault by their conduct and not putting themselves in positions to be victims of such assaults.
- Stating that Women would not be respected if they did not perform to the same/simliar standards of men and that if put in a position of rank would likely see their orders ignored.

The CO is training these soldiers for combat and the risk associated with combat.. Should they be made to feel "safe". Is combat safe.

are the Men co's held to this standard with male soldiers?

The Brigadier General essentially confirmed what the CO was saying. Her expectation for the women to perform better was met with resistance on multiple levels. Even Her expectation and improvement with the soldiers shooting scores was met with resistance in implementation.

I dont think congress will agree with the military on this one. This Officer wasnt asking the trainees to meet any guidelines she couldnt meet herself.. hell that a 40 year old out of shape male who smokes can meet.

These women dont need to be strong or fast as a man but they do need to be able to pull themselves out of a fox hole. March for hours with equipment and be able to protect themselves. If they cant. thats more bodybags in the event of war.
This isnt hazing. its not code red but how can these women soldiers be reasonably expected to handle a pow situation if they feel less safe when someone tells them the truth.

theres things that can be done.. extend the basic training period for women if more time is needed to get them up to par. implement new training programs that are more suited for women biology.. heck you can goto 40 gyms and find 40 different training regimens surely the military can figure out one effective for women.

This case just proves Gonarmo right. The Military does not respect the women. they do believe them inferior otherwise why would they find someone with expectations that these women be able to take care of themselves in combat situations as troublesome and unreasonable.

One of the most heinous crimes an officer can commit is rocking the boat. Mediocre GOs and Field Grades hate initiative. Makes them look bad.

 

[Tornicade]

One of the most heinous crimes an officer can commit is rocking the boat. Mediocre GOs and Field Grades hate initiative. Makes them look bad.

Yeah i Get that but this is a relatively new program and one that just yielded its first graduating class and there is a oversight committee determining their fate.

but look Parris Island program is set up for failure because it doesnt prepare women for combat.

this program here has women testing with men on the field

http://www.npr.org/2015/07/07/41949...ow-female-marines-await-word-on-ground-combat


Thats what these women are facing if they choose an infantry position on a combat unit and this program at Parris Island is not preparing women for that.
Its not the Navy or Air force this is the Marines so unless they are enlisted for some type of non combat support function. these guidelines need to be metsa and even in that situation they need to be physically fit in case the need arises just as with any Military male not serving in a direct combat unit

Beck completed the combat training, carrying an anti-tank weapon and sometimes a pack weighing 155 pounds. It left her with a stress fracture on her hip. Right now, she's hobbling around on crutches — but remains determined.


"We've never been able to do this before," says Beck. "This is why I joined the Marine Corps — to be able to fight and serve along[side] our brothers in arms."


Beck should know later this year whether that will be possible.

perhasp with the same training standards in boot camp . These stress fractures and other injuries with the women training with infantry units would be reduced significantly because there they are held to the same standards as the males.

 

[Jordan]

Two things:

(1) one of the hottest women I've ever seen was in the Air Force. Looked like Giada Delauentiis without the crazy eyes and more reasonable forehead.

(2) anyone seen the Amy Schumer bit where she's playing a military video game and chooses to follow the female option? Fucking hilarious and relevant to this thread.

If you losers want to see it, you'll need to go out and find it on your own.

Amy Schumer is amazing, that's a great clip, and I honestly think she's pretty cute too.

 

[Sebastian]

Yeah i Get that but this is a relatively new program and one that just yielded its first graduating class and there is a oversight committee determining their fate.

but look Parris Island program is set up for failure because it doesnt prepare women for combat.

this program here has women testing with men on the field

http://www.npr.org/2015/07/07/41949...ow-female-marines-await-word-on-ground-combat


Thats what these women are facing if they choose an infantry position on a combat unit and this program at Parris Island is not preparing women for that.
Its not the Navy or Air force this is the Marines so unless they are enlisted for some type of non combat support function. these guidelines need to be metsa and even in that situation they need to be physically fit in case the need arises just as with any Military male not serving in a direct combat unit

Beck completed the combat training, carrying an anti-tank weapon and sometimes a pack weighing 155 pounds. It left her with a stress fracture on her hip. Right now, she's hobbling around on crutches — but remains determined.


"We've never been able to do this before," says Beck. "This is why I joined the Marine Corps — to be able to fight and serve along[side] our brothers in arms."


Beck should know later this year whether that will be possible.

perhasp with the same training standards in boot camp . These stress fractures and other injuries with the women training with infantry units would be reduced significantly because there they are held to the same standards as the males.

They should all be trained as hard as possible. Everyone should be put through the wringer because that is what saves lives down the line.

What happened in this case is little more than a few malcontent lazy officers and NCOs who became very used to the lax standards their charges were held to. The Corps didn't expect much from the female boots and some folks took it as an opportunity to sham. Then along comes an officer who gives a shit and starts making everyone work very hard. Some took exception and complained. Outside her unit it is not hard to see that some were either irritated by her methods and personality or otherwise didn't want to change the status quo. That 71% on initial marksmanship was tolerated, much less accepted at Parris Island, is a giant red flag as to the priority that Col. Haas and BG Williams have placed on training female recruits. If I were the Corps Commandant I would fly out there and chew some asses.

I know several Basic Training company commanders, albeit Army, and yes, in the non-combat arms basic training units there are a lot of lackadaisical officers and NCOs who only want to do the bare minimum before handing their charges off to AIT units. Commanders who really push their recruits and subordinates are sometimes resented. Saw it first hand too when I was in Basic.

Without knowing the full details, my immediate impression is that this was a travesty. I hope Congress re-instates her and the Corps takes a harder look at how they train their female Marines.

 

[Tornicade]

They should all be trained as hard as possible. Everyone should be put through the wringer because that is what saves lives down the line.

What happened in this case is little more than a few malcontent lazy officers and NCOs who became very used to the lax standards their charges were held to. The Corps didn't expect much from the female boots and some folks took it as an opportunity to sham. Then along comes an officer who gives a shit and starts making everyone work very hard. Some took exception and complained. Outside her unit it is not hard to see that some were either irritated by her methods and personality or otherwise didn't want to change the status quo. That 71% on initial marksmanship was tolerated, much less accepted at Parris Island, is a giant red flag as to the priority that Col. Haas and BG Williams have placed on training female recruits. If I were the Corps Commandant I would fly out there and chew some asses.

I know several Basic Training company commanders, albeit Army, and yes, in the non-combat arms basic training units there are a lot of lackadaisical officers and NCOs who only want to do the bare minimum before handing their charges off to AIT units. Commanders who really push their recruits and subordinates are sometimes resented. Saw it first hand too when I was in Basic.

Without knowing the full details, my immediate impression is that this was a travesty. I hope Congress re-instates her and the Corps takes a harder look at how they train their female Marines.

I think that Parris Island intends to use these test scores to show clearly why women shouldn't be in combat units for 2016.
So far the Unit training has appeared to be succesful. the women are meeting the physical requirements and even though showing a high injury rate at least established that Women are capable even if not yet ready to participate in combat units.
Yet one can argue that although the upper 10% of the women enlistee the rest cannot.

There is some major politics going on here as the Military has been tasked from congress to prove that women cannot function in combat.

Its funny that the corresponding article on the unit training asked one of the soldiers who has served in the military for multiple tours that he would only feel comfortable in combat situations with one of the female soldiers in the training unit. This leads credence to Gonarmo's Words, who is tasked to prepare these soldiers for possible combat units.

I have no doubt that Harris undermined Gonarmos situation. gonarmo only appeared to ask that her superior officers followed the same line of command as they did with their other CO's. I dont think this was the case.

Segregating the Women in boot camp.
only having female drill instructors.
Incorporating lower standards
not allowing the women to march with the men on even ceromonial or practice hikes
Haas overriding Gonarmo on multiple occasions bypassing Gonarmo altogether demonstrate
gender related discrimination by Haas.
such as telling her that she was not allowed to contact recruiters for informational purposed

The male battalions had five drill sergeants for each group of recruits, but the female battalions had only three. Colonel Germano pushed for more staff, saying her sergeants were exhausted and unable to function.

after gonarmo was relived of duty. The officers were instructed to make no further attempts at integration. there was no manadate to do so.


I think congress will have a field day with this



.

 

[The Oi]

Are debilitating stress fractures common in male military?

 

[Surge]

Lol..

Seriously though.. who gives a shit. Why is this a controversy? Oh wait, let me guess, this will somehow pivot into an anti-feminist rant?

Nvm...

Because I haven't been outraged by something in like 36 hours!


MOAR outrage!!