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Dion Waiters Traded

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Grade the Trade (Waiters + Kirk/Amundsen + 2nd rd pick for Smith, Shumpert, and 1st rd pick)

  • A+

    Votes: 18 7.1%
  • A

    Votes: 68 26.7%
  • B

    Votes: 106 41.6%
  • C

    Votes: 44 17.3%
  • D

    Votes: 10 3.9%
  • F

    Votes: 9 3.5%

  • Total voters
    255
  • Poll closed .
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I remember one of the first thing Mike Brown mentioned about Dion when he got the job was that with his body and physicality, Dion should be able to get 5-7 rebounds a game from the guard spot. Also that when Dion did grab a rebound, he would have the latitude to lead the break and attack fast towards the basket.

Dion's not as wide as Anthony, but he's got that same thick-as-hell-all-throughout build to him that allows him to have much higher strength than other guys. He needs to take advantage of that more. I said "abusive" defense for a reason. Last night, I saw Dion literally bullying the guy he was guarding because he couldn't handle Dion's physicality and strength.
 
Dion's not as wide as Anthony, but he's got that same thick-as-hell-all-throughout build to him that allows him to have much higher strength than other guys. He needs to take advantage of that more. I said "abusive" defense for a reason. Last night, I saw Dion literally bullying the guy he was guarding because he couldn't handle Dion's physicality and strength.

I would also like to see him utilize his stremph more on offense, as well, particularly in converting near the basket, an area in which he obviously struggles currently.

I want to see less of the finesse in trying to convert those layups in traffic and more power. I think a lot of his problems in converting those shots is that he just gets too cute and too damn fancy, basically. So often you see him beat his man easily, get to the rack with defenders contesting, and then leap with the ball in both hands circling around in various mini-fakes until he finally releases it, at which point either the defender has the opportunity to simply stick his hand in between the ball and the basket or Dion has created for himself an angle that he's simply unable to convert with any consistency. He's definitely not the English student that Kyrie is when it comes to the impossible angles off the glass.

But he's also stronger and more explosive around the rim than Kyrie, and he'd be well served to utilize that more. In those same scenarios, he often has a ton of momentum and a pretty good amount of real estate to work with from the point where he beats his own man and where the defenders are waiting for him at the hoop. Now I'd love for him to just yam on everybody all the time, but I know that's not realistic. However, I do think there are plenty of opportunities to catch the rim defenders on their heels and simply explode with power straight at the hoop with the intent of putting the ball directly through it, rather than around the world in contact avoidance. His rose-colored comparison, Wade, made that a signature part of his game.

If Dion would do that more, creating contact more than shying away from it, he'd create situations in which the refs simply don't have the discretion to swallow their whistles. And if he'd shut the fuck up about it afterwards for any prolonged period of time, he might even start getting close calls in his favor, rather than against him.

To me, he has that ability. And it would go a long way towards making him the premiere off-guard he believes he is and we all want him to be.
 
long 2s: 81-182 .890pps
3s: 53-147 1.082pps

and that is current, when "he's money from mid-range" and "needs to work on his 3pt shooting"

:dunno:

Mid range comes into play in tight games when the perimeter and inside are effectively defended. this is about spacing and opening up those inside drives . teams have to respect Dion from 16-24 feet meaning if they come up close he can drive if the play off he can shoot at what is currently a .9 point per attempt rate. lets look at the guys who utilize this range in the NBA as whole who are shooting better than Waiters 4 FGA per game at 44.5

first kyrie is .79 points per attempt at under 40%

Lamarcus Aldrige, Avery Bradley, Jason Smith, Dirk Nowitzki , Al Horford, Stephen Curry, Serge Ibaka and David west of the top 25 in attempts per game make up guys who are more consistent with their shot. You need someone on the court who can make this shot. Dion can.

Dion takes about 3 shots a game 24+ thats not alot of attempts. Dion does have a good ration of drives to mid range to threes so he mixes it up.

and although he isnt known to be a catch and shoot guy he is hitting his oppurtunites and a better percentage than CJ miles. so he is quite capable of adding this to his game as well as he gets more oppurtunities and his teammates recognize him there.


We also so Dions value in the AV,Irving pick and roll. if it doesnt work then Dion is there as an outlet. a guy who can catch and shoot, create his own shot or create for others . while allowing Irving to do his thing. Kyrie as been improving off the ball . as he gets better Dion will be able to set the point of attack and Irving play off the two man game.

as this develops CJ and Deng or whoever wil be able to find creases and eventually the the 2nd big man will start seeing more opportunities under the basket.

this is why its mind boggling to me when they say these pieces dont fit. they do fit they just need to trust and learn the offense past a rudimentary novice level. Both Bennett and Zeller are big men who can develop that 8-24 ft range game at a higher level than AV much earlier in their careers. this will open things up for the other big on the court with eithor or for each other and allow the 3 to cut to the basket or set up the guard for a shot or inside pass.
 
Mid range comes into play in tight games when the perimeter and inside are effectively defended. this is about spacing and opening up those inside drives . teams have to respect Dion from 16-24 feet meaning if they come up close he can drive if the play off he can shoot at what is currently a .9 point per attempt rate. lets look at the guys who utilize this range in the NBA as whole who are shooting better than Waiters 4 FGA per game at 44.5

first kyrie is .79 points per attempt at under 40%

Lamarcus Aldrige, Avery Bradley, Jason Smith, Dirk Nowitzki , Al Horford, Stephen Curry, Serge Ibaka and David west of the top 25 in attempts per game make up guys who are more consistent with their shot. You need someone on the court who can make this shot. Dion can.

Dion takes about 3 shots a game 24+ thats not alot of attempts. Dion does have a good ration of drives to mid range to threes so he mixes it up.
first of all, you can't compare bigs to smalls re: mid range shots. it is useful for bigs because it helps space the floor. though, again, 3s are preferable but in this case not many bigs have quite that kind of range (which is why ryan anderson is hugely valuable). for smalls, regularly taking long 2s is bad and pretty much an efficiency killer. that is not to say they should *never* be taken, but if a pg or sg is taking more long 2s than 3s, he's more likely than not going to be severely undermining his efficiency. in this case, dion is taking FAR too many long 2s - whether you want to blame that on him or poor offensive schemes, that is your choice. it's probably somewhere in between.

a team really shouldn't respect dion's long 2. they should let him shoot it all day because a) he's likely erroneously taking a 2 instead of a 3 and b) if he utilizes the gap to start a drive to the rim, he's horribly inefficient in that area.
 
first of all, you can't compare bigs to smalls re: mid range shots. it is useful for bigs because it helps space the floor. though, again, 3s are preferable but in this case not many bigs have quite that kind of range (which is why ryan anderson is hugely valuable). for smalls, regularly taking long 2s is bad and pretty much an efficiency killer. that is not to say they should *never* be taken, but if a pg or sg is taking more long 2s than 3s, he's more likely than not going to be severely undermining his efficiency. in this case, dion is taking FAR too many long 2s - whether you want to blame that on him or poor offensive schemes, that is your choice. it's probably somewhere in between.

a team really shouldn't respect dion's long 2. they should let him shoot it all day because a) he's likely erroneously taking a 2 instead of a 3 and b) if he utilizes the gap to start a drive to the rim, he's horribly inefficient in that area.

Mid-range jumpers are the easiest shots to get off, they don’t lead to turnovers, they keep the defense honest, and they can open up driving lanes or free up three-point shooters. If the mid-range game is used correctly, it can be just as overwhelming to a defense as a punishing interior game or a barrage of threes, and some of the NBA’s best offenses (like Miami) still rely on mid-rage jumpers to keep the defense off balance.

it doesnt matter whether a forward, center or guard is making the shot. it can open up everything else when they are landing and there are alot of offenses that thrive in this area and it is not coincidence.

Every SG with his solt has a mid range jumper and attempts them 3-6 times a game.

It isnt about beating their man its about bringing out that second layer defense. . the zone has allowed defenses to take away that 10-15 range shot. if they are stepping out past fifteen that opens up the drive.

Defenses do give team the mid range shot in that 16-24 foot range so its certainly of value to have guys who can and do make it.

you like Dion drives per game. he drives 7.5 times a game his team scores 7 points per game thats a .93 points per attempt. not so inefficient. his mid range game helps that aspect. so 7 points per game a drive. not as inefficient as your making it out to be.

From interview by Matt Moore@CBS Sports with Suns Coach Jeff Hornacek:

I asked Hornacek, who has consistently criticized mid-range jump shots which are the scourge of advanced metrics, if there is a divide in coaching circles on the fundamental, 18-foot jumper and its role in the NBA.
"I thinks so. Analytics people say you should never take those shots. But here's how I look at it.
"I looked at the 14 of 16 playoff teams last year their effective field goal percentage was right at 51 or higher. The two teams that weren't were Indiana and Memphis who were probably the two best defensive teams in the league. So the ultimate goal is, how do you get to that 51 percent?
If you look back to when we played, we didn't shoot a lot of threes. And if you look at the Utah teams I played on, we shot 50 percent from the field every year and we probably made 5 for 7 threes every game, so our effective field percentage probably was about 52 percent and we took a lot of mid-range jump shots. The goal is to look at the overall package and see how do you get to the overall number. If you've got a guy that can shoot 55 percent from those shots, why not shoot them? I don't think you can say it's black and white don't shoot those shots.
I think as coaches you also say, 'That's great, don't shoot those shots.' But then when you get in the playoffs, those are the shots you get because the defenses are so locked in, and you know how everyone plays, that those are the shots that come available, those 18-foot mid-range jump shots. And that's when you gotta make them. And if you haven't taken them all year long and then you're in the playoffs and you gotta make them, how's that going to work?"

the bottom line is the mid range game is especially important for shot creators and thats what Dion is and it bodes well for his future. I dont really wanna see Dion taking many threes at all unless its part of the offensive flow in a spot shooting situation. curling around and gettingt he mid range shot when the paint doesnt open up is a very valued commodity in the game even if its the "least" efficient shot.
 
In 5 years, every single field goal attempted in the NBA will be a corner three. Best shot in basketball.
 
Kyrie (talking about playing with Dion) "It's nice playing with a good friend out there."


Yes, there are chemistry issues with the team (mainly when the losses are piling up) but I'm tired of people saying that Kyrie and Dion don't like each other. They were good friends before Dion was drafted and remain good friends.

If anything, they are too respectful of each other on the court. Kyrie will give Dion the ball and watch him play. Dion will give Kyrie the ball and watch him play. The last couple of games this has seemed to change as Kyrie has been finding an open Dion and vice versa. They are being more vocal with each other, and even discussing what they see on the court (which they have never really done before.) They are cheering for each other, and Kyrie embraced Dion after he missed the game winner (and didn't advance the ball to Kyrie who was a lot closer.)

Fuck all the Kyrie vs. Dion bullshit. I love both players. I want them to both succeed, and that is starting to happen. Let them play with each other for long stretches and watch good things happen.
 
Every SG worth his salt has a mid range jumper and attempts them 3-6 times a game.

James Harden, who many would describe as the best offensive SG in the game, only takes 2.5 long 2's per game. It makes up less than 15% of his total shot attempts, compared to over 30% for Waiters.

Defenses do give team the mid range shot in that 16-24 foot range so its certainly of value to have guys who can and do make it

There's a reason why teams give you that shot.

From interview with Suns Coach Jeff Hornacek:
"I looked at the 14 of 16 playoff teams last year their effective field goal percentage was right at 51 or higher... the ultimate goal is, how do you get to that 51 percent?

Only 4 players in the league are shooting at 51+% on long 2's (min 50 attempts). By contrast, 128 players have an eFG% of 51+% on 3 point attempts. Teams want you to shoot the long 2 as it means you score less efficiently.

you like Dion drives per game. he drives 7.5 times a game his team scores 7 points per game thats a .93 points per attempt. not so inefficient.

Not so inefficient? It's literally the worst rate in the league!! (95th out of 95) of those who drive 3+ times/game.
The only other guards below 1 point/drive are Patrick Beverley and Norris Cole - i.e. defensive specialists.

Only 3 players in the league finish worse than Dion at the rim - Damian Lillard (one of the top 3 point shooters in the league), Ricky Rubio (a passing/defensive menace who can't score) and Ersan Ilyasova (a stretch 4).

The only other two guards as inefficient as Dion in terms of TS% (which takes into account 2P, 3P and FTs) in both of the last two years (min. 20 mins/game) are Rubio and Avery Bradley - both of whom are elite defenders.

He flashes great ability; his highlight reel would be among the league's best which is why I enjoy watching him. But to suggest his shot selection and finishing is anything other than terrible at present is misguided.
 
Kyrie (talking about playing with Dion) "It's nice playing with a good friend out there."


Yes, there are chemistry issues with the team (mainly when the losses are piling up) but I'm tired of people saying that Kyrie and Dion don't like each other. They were good friends before Dion was drafted and remain good friends.

If anything, they are too respectful of each other on the court. Kyrie will give Dion the ball and watch him play. Dion will give Kyrie the ball and watch him play. The last couple of games this has seemed to change as Kyrie has been finding an open Dion and vice versa. They are being more vocal with each other, and even discussing what they see on the court (which they have never really done before.) They are cheering for each other, and Kyrie embraced Dion after he missed the game winner (and didn't advance the ball to Kyrie who was a lot closer.)

Fuck all the Kyrie vs. Dion bullshit. I love both players. I want them to both succeed, and that is starting to happen. Let them play with each other for long stretches and watch good things happen.

It is absolutely possible to be friends off the court and clash on the court. That said, just because Kyrie said it in a post game interview after a win doesn't mean it is real.

I agree, we just need to force feed the two together to see if it can work while we evaluate, the more minutes they play together the better.
 
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Mid-range jumpers are the easiest shots to get off, they don’t lead to turnovers, they keep the defense honest, and they can open up driving lanes or free up three-point shooters. If the mid-range game is used correctly, it can be just as overwhelming to a defense as a punishing interior game or a barrage of threes, and some of the NBA’s best offenses (like Miami) still rely on mid-rage jumpers to keep the defense off balance.

it doesnt matter whether a forward, center or guard is making the shot. it can open up everything else when they are landing and there are alot of offenses that thrive in this area and it is not coincidence.

Every SG with his solt has a mid range jumper and attempts them 3-6 times a game.

It isnt about beating their man its about bringing out that second layer defense. . the zone has allowed defenses to take away that 10-15 range shot. if they are stepping out past fifteen that opens up the drive.

Defenses do give team the mid range shot in that 16-24 foot range so its certainly of value to have guys who can and do make it.

you like Dion drives per game. he drives 7.5 times a game his team scores 7 points per game thats a .93 points per attempt. not so inefficient. his mid range game helps that aspect. so 7 points per game a drive. not as inefficient as your making it out to be.
it absolutely matters whether a forward, center, or guard is making the shot. again, a big making it spreads the floor. a guard making it shrinks the floor (they should be shooting 3s).

the shooting guard comment is not even remotely true. in fact, almost all of the most efficient sg's are all taking FAR less than 3-6 a game. harden is less, as noted above. stephenson is at 1.4 a game. matthews is 1.3. dragic is 1.83. wade is near the bottom of your 3-6 range at 3.6 attempts, but that is negated by his absurd finishing rate (66.5% on 242 attempts). also, a guy like klay thompson has shitty efficiency numbers in large part due to shooting 3.4 attempts per game.

no, i said i WOULDN'T respect dion's long 2s so he would a) hopefully take more of them and/or b) utilize the gap and start a drive to the rim. you pointed out exactly why option b is so good - he can't finish! that's one of the reasons his efficiency numbers are such dogshit. he takes a lot of long 2s and more importantly, he can never finish despite how often he gets to the rim. opposing teams should be doing whatever they can to make him do more of both until he can prove he's able to make smarter decisions and actually finish.

In 5 years, every single field goal attempted in the NBA will be a corner three. Best shot in basketball.
not in 5 years but yes. in the meantime, teams will continue to be taking more and more 3s overall like they have been doing because it's so efficient.

James Harden, who many would describe as the best offensive SG in the game, only takes 2.5 long 2's per game. It makes up less than 15% of his total shot attempts, compared to over 30% for Waiters.



There's a reason why teams give you that shot.



Only 4 players in the league are shooting at 51+% on long 2's (min 50 attempts). By contrast, 128 players have an eFG% of 51+% on 3 point attempts. Teams want you to shoot the long 2 as it means you score less efficiently.



Not so inefficient? It's literally the worst rate in the league!! (95th out of 95) of those who drive 3+ times/game.
The only other guards below 1 point/drive are Patrick Beverley and Norris Cole - i.e. defensive specialists.

Only 3 players in the league finish worse than Dion at the rim - Damian Lillard (one of the top 3 point shooters in the league), Ricky Rubio (a passing/defensive menace who can't score) and Ersan Ilyasova (a stretch 4).

The only other two guards as inefficient as Dion in terms of TS% (which takes into account 2P, 3P and FTs) in both of the last two years (min. 20 mins/game) are Rubio and Avery Bradley - both of whom are elite defenders.

He flashes great ability; his highlight reel would be among the league's best which is why I enjoy watching him. But to suggest his shot selection and finishing is anything other than terrible at present is misguided.
i like u
 
It is absolutely possible to be friends off the court and clash on the court. That said, just because Kyrie said it in a post game interview after a win doesn't mean it is real.

I agree, we just need to force feed the two together to see if it can work while we evaluate, the more minutes they play together the better.



Why do people keep saying this? This is the NBA. you can only play 5 guys at a time. How man teams start two PG's or two C's? Not many if any at all. It's not healthy for any team top force your best player to play with a guy who's game just doesn't fit. One guy is a two time All Star and the other is a bench player. You play to the strengths of the all star not the bench player. It benefits Dion if he starts with Kyrie more than it benefits Kyrie so why should we do it?
 
Why do people keep saying this? This is the NBA. you can only play 5 guys at a time. How man teams start two PG's or two C's? Not many if any at all. It's not healthy for any team top force your best player to play with a guy who's game just doesn't fit. One guy is a two time All Star and the other is a bench player. You play to the strengths of the all star not the bench player. It benefits Dion if he starts with Kyrie more than it benefits Kyrie so why should we do it?

For the sake of the team. Dion's improvement and their chemistry on the court will make the team much better.

Also, Dion has all the attributes to be a good SG, he has to focus and improve them.
 
Why do people keep saying this? This is the NBA. you can only play 5 guys at a time. How man teams start two PG's or two C's? Not many if any at all. It's not healthy for any team top force your best player to play with a guy who's game just doesn't fit. One guy is a two time All Star and the other is a bench player. You play to the strengths of the all star not the bench player. It benefits Dion if he starts with Kyrie more than it benefits Kyrie so why should we do it?

Maybe because he's actually a shooting guard and our second most talented player.
 
Why do people keep saying this? This is the NBA. you can only play 5 guys at a time. How man teams start two PG's or two C's? Not many if any at all. It's not healthy for any team top force your best player to play with a guy who's game just doesn't fit. One guy is a two time All Star and the other is a bench player. You play to the strengths of the all star not the bench player. It benefits Dion if he starts with Kyrie more than it benefits Kyrie so why should we do it?

Why are so many people assuming they don't fit together?? Their skill sets are not THAT similar. Dion can drive and kick or pull up. Kyrie can spot up and finish at the rim. Both have the ability to run the pick and roll and both can get hot at any time. Gee, what a same we can't play them together :rolleyes:. We see how bad the starting lineup does on offense because Kyrie's the only one who can create. When Kyrie/Dion have played together they've done pretty well. That doesn't mean you're gonna get 20 and 7 from each guy every night.
 
Ok but if I've got Kyrie Irving on my team than I'm not gonna pair him with a player like Dion. Your're not gonna maximize Kyrie's game playing him with Dion. You could if we had Klay Thompson, Sefaloshia, or Terrance Ross. Those guys would allow Kyrie to play to his max potential. The same goes for Dion. You could probably get better production from him if he played with George Hill, Rondo, or Rubio.
 
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