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Dion Waiters

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Honestly, this "it was the Cavs' fault, not Dion's" stuff is exactly the type of thing that keeps this argument going.
i dont think pointing out one thing means the other.
looking at stat sheets. Ignoring coaches, and hogging the ball was a culture Dion was drafted into.along with veteran leadership that consisted of a couple of 2nd year guys and a few journeymen.
 
i dont think pointing out one thing means the other.
looking at stat sheets. Ignoring coaches, and hogging the ball was a culture Dion was drafted into.along with veteran leadership that consisted of a couple of 2nd year guys and a few journeymen.

Didn't notice TT or Delly checking stat sheets, ignoring coaches, or hogging the ball, and they had the same leadership and coaching as Dion. There was nobody compelling Dion to do any of that except Dion.

Kyrie did some of that, but then, he was criticized for that as well. And the reality has always been that greater the talent, the longer the leash. To most everyone except Dion and a few supporters, Kyrie was clearly the more talented player. But Dion's inflated self-image demanded that he be treated as if he was better than he was, so he visibly pouted and sulked on court if things weren't going his way. And again, in contrast, a guy like Delly played his heart out every possession without having to be treated like a diva.

But to the extent you want to blame part of Dion's (and Kyrie's) problem on a lack of veteran leadership and poor coaching, fine. So what happened when we added all a whole bunch of real veteran leadership, and a real coaching staff? Kyrie absolutely thrived, playing the best all-around basketball of his career despite no longer being the center of attention/first option on the team.

In contrast, despite LBJ and everyone else pulling for him, Dion didn't change one bit. He had the same issues with crappy body language, pouting, floor game falling apart if things weren't going his way on the offensive end, etc.. And it got to the point where even LBJ, who clearly tried to provided emotional support/leadership to the guy, started ignoring him.

So then when he finally gets traded in a move that clearly constituted addition by subtraction inhindsight (and maybe even foresight on the part of the Cavs), he validates all the criticism of him as a "me-first" player by saying the reason he played better (initially, at least) in OKC was that he "actually sees the ball" in OKC v. Cleveland. This despite the fact that stats at the time showed he actually got more touches in Cleveland. But again, to Dion the game of basketball seems to be all about maximizing his personal opportunities to score, not winning games.

Then the truth hit -- Dion only played better those few games in OKC because he happened to get on a hot streak that every high-volume shooter hits periodically. As soon as that returned to earth, the rest of his game regressed as well, just as it did in Cleveland.

Dion is one of those guys who is going to blame everyone else for his lack of success. Which is one of the big factors that explains his lack of success.
 
I'm not going to hate on Dion as a person or cheer his lack of success. My approach, and the tone that I get from some others in here, is to take pride in being right in a player evaluation. Not to clown posters like Cashius X, who seems to really like Dion as a person, or Qaws, who is either the same or a funny troll. They aren't even pretending to be objective and that's cool with me.

Rather, taking pride in being correct over many other longstanding posters who for years would condescindengly lecture anyone who thought Dion's future wasn't the starting SG for the Cavs. We had more than a few people seriously predicting that Dion would be close to an all star this year, and Spencer Hawes already pointed out the Dion/Kyrie nonsense above. It's poor form to out and out say "see I was right!", so I think that is what is really behind some of the comments that are perceived as bashing him. I'll own it.
 
My approach, and the tone that I get from some others in here, is to take pride in being right in a player evaluation. Not to clown posters like Cashius X, who seems to really like Dion as a person, or Qaws, who is either the same or a funny troll. They aren't even pretending to be objective and that's cool with me. Rather, taking pride in being correct over many other longstanding posters who for years would condescindengly lecture anyone who thought Dion's future wasn't the starting SG for the Cavs.

Personally, that's not it for me. That's the same "we should have taken JV instead of TT, or Drummond instead of Dion" argument. I've been wrong about stuff, and just thrilled that nobody brings it up. I mean, I honestly thought Dexter Pittman was going to slim down to around 265 or so and become a monster. Fortunately, people forgot that....

While I don't have anything against Dion as a person, I really dislike his approach to the game of basketball. It's 'attitude' over substance, personal stats over wins, inconsistent effort etc.. Reminds me of the feeling I had watching Ricky Davis' "triple-double".

So when folks start arguing that the problem really wasn't with him or his game, but rather other people, I see it as fundamentally an arguing about basketball, and about what kind of game, and what kind of players, lead to success. And that kind of discussions is always relevant even if the guy is no longer on the team, because it is part of what you value moving forward.

And a part of me also wishes something good for Dion as a person, which requires that he wakes the fuck up.
 
So when folks start arguing that the problem really wasn't with him or his game, but rather other people, I see it as fundamentally an arguing about basketball, and about what kind of game, and what kind of players, lead to success. And that kind of discussions is always relevant even if the guy is no longer on the team, because it is part of what you value moving forward.
I agree with everything you wrote. Except that I like when people point out that I was wrong.

The part I quoted is exactly what I was getting at - being right about Dion is being right about basketball. It is understanding the type of player/person that he is and being able to appreciate how that fits into the larger picture. Or, more precisely, understanding that players/people like him don't often fit.
 
So when folks start arguing that the problem really wasn't with him or his game, but rather other people, I see it as fundamentally an arguing about basketball, and about what kind of game, and what kind of players, lead to success. And that kind of discussions is always relevant even if the guy is no longer on the team, because it is part of what you value moving forward.

That's what makes Dion so frustrating. He has the tools (first-step, passing ability, strength, good athleticism) to be a good NBA player. He just either can't or refuses to put it all together. I honestly don't feel like he put in any work over the summer. He came into this year looking out of shape and worse at basically everything. It was just very disappointing for someone who really liked him and wanted him to succeed with this team.
 
Dion, Dion, Dion..... Just streamed 3 quarters, think ill even sit the 4th.

I think I harp on the play of Dion so much because I wanna see him do good at this point.
 
What happened?
It was in garbage time, but he missed a wide open point blank bunny shot right at the basket. Just hit the backboard and rolled off the rim to the other side lol. Dion couldn't believe it, as if that hasn't happened to him 2 or 3 times already with OKC. :chuckle:
 
Personally, that's not it for me. That's the same "we should have taken JV instead of TT, or Drummond instead of Dion" argument. I've been wrong about stuff, and just thrilled that nobody brings it up. I mean, I honestly thought Dexter Pittman was going to slim down to around 265 or so and become a monster. Fortunately, people forgot that....

While I don't have anything against Dion as a person, I really dislike his approach to the game of basketball. It's 'attitude' over substance, personal stats over wins, inconsistent effort etc.. Reminds me of the feeling I had watching Ricky Davis' "triple-double".

So when folks start arguing that the problem really wasn't with him or his game, but rather other people, I see it as fundamentally an arguing about basketball, and about what kind of game, and what kind of players, lead to success. And that kind of discussions is always relevant even if the guy is no longer on the team, because it is part of what you value moving forward.

And a part of me also wishes something good for Dion as a person, which requires that he wakes the fuck up.
You guys are too busy looking at shooting percentages to see that Dion is growing over at OKC and ignoring that a similar style veteran in Cleveland is starting and the team is having success.

but yes 3 coaches in three years and none bothering to use a 4th round draft pick for what he was drafted for is a recipe for success because now that lebron is here none of it matters.
 

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