ESPN Player ranking - The Cavs players

[Marcus]

You're on crack if you think Irving is a top 10 player. I love the kid, but let them earn it before we hand over these accolades to them. The guy hasn't led a team to more than 32 wins in 4 seasons in one of the weakest Eastern conferences in the past several decades! LeBron led the Cavs to 35 wins his rookie season, with a less talented team.

List of players better than him, in no order.

LeBron
Durant
CP3
Westbrook
D12
Harden
Lamarcus Aldridge
Paul George
Melo
Dirk
Duncan (Yes even at this age, the guy is a monster in monster games)
Kawhli Leonard
Tony Parker
Kevin Love
Al Jefferson
Blake Griffin

That's an easy 16. Tony Parker & Duncan are the only "maybes".

Players that are equal/worse/better than Kyrie on any given night: Damian Lillard, Rose, Demarcus Cousins, Marc Gasol, Noah, Wall, Beal, Joe Johnson, Bosh

I think you are criminally underrating Irving with that list. I'd argue he's more top 15 or even 20 than top 10, but come on... Those three Spurs players over him? Al Jefferson? Harden? Joe Johnson and Beal as maybes/any given night better players? Seriously?

 

[Cavatt]

I said I thought he was a top 10 talent, but not performer yet. I think that has led to some confusion here.

I was really disappointed in Irving's consistency last year. I thought Dion and TT actually both made more progress in this area. I'm not suggesting either one is better just that they made more progress.

 

[PriceFan14]

When the topic comes to compare Irving and Wall or anybody about making the playoffs it's time for this:

I personally thank the 2013-1014 Cavaliers for:

Not making playoffs, looking worse than who they are, making sure the Grant and Brown are getting fired

And Causing:

Getting in lottary which gives us the 1st pick, building a dynasty quality core with young and underrated talents(Kyrie, TT, Dion, Delly and Andy - at least leaguewise underrated not in Cavs forums)
Without these, LeBron might not return or we wouldn't be able to get Love. Anyway, now we can all SPREAD THE LOOOVEE BABY

 

[Chris]

Can you stop acting like Kyrie was anywhere near as terrible last year as you're making him to be? It's gotten to the point of trolling with how hard a stance you've taken that he's some of bad player. What are you trying to prove, that Cavs fans overrate how good Kyrie Irving is? They should, he's got the potential to be one of the franchise's greatest players and a future HOFer. Have you really been watching these past few years not been impressed with his talent? It's not hyperbole to call him one of the top-15 talents in the entire NBA.

Yes he was bad defensively last year, but elite point guards like Tony Parker and Steve Nash have also been subpar defenders for years- doesn't change the fact they're all great offensive players. Kyrie was the fourth highest scoring guard in the entire league last year- only behind other All-Stars like Steph Curry, James Harden, and DeMar DeRozan. Why does that not get any credit?

The guy had a down year. It was not a good year for him. Not really debateable. Why are you acting flustered because I'm insulting your favorite player? I should be able to state what I want about a player, and what I think, without having to walk on egg shells simply because he is a Cavalier. Russell Westbrook is a great player. Yet it's perfectly okay for him to be lambasted day in and day out on this forum for his shortcomings. If I'm doing the same about Kyrie Irving, you're going to throw a fit and get repped a bunch of times for it by people.

Never did I say he's a "bad player" or not supremely talented. Again, you're going to deny it, but you're flustered that I'm saying anything other than praises about Kyrie Irving. "I'm trolling?" Are you fucking serious right now? If it were any non-Cavalier player, you would not say a peep. Look at some of the great players on here that are ripped relentlessly every day. The fact of the matter is some points guards have been bad defensively, and some are so bad that they almost erase their offensive output on the defense end. That describes Kyrie Irving. And he needs to improve tenfold in that category. Don't get offended by that. I'm betting Irving himself would agree with it.

 

[CosmoKramer]

The guy had a down year. It was not a good year for him. Not really debateable. Why are you acting flustered because I'm insulting your favorite player? I should be able to state what I want about a player, and what I think, without having to walk on egg shells simply because he is a Cavalier. Russell Westbrook is a great player. Yet it's perfectly okay for him to be lambasted day in and day out on this forum for his shortcomings. If I'm doing the same about Kyrie Irving, you're going to throw a fit and get repped a bunch of times for it by people.

Never did I say he's a "bad player" or not supremely talented. Again, you're going to deny it, but you're flustered that I'm saying anything other than praises about Kyrie Irving. "I'm trolling?" Are you fucking serious right now? If it were any non-Cavalier player, you would not say a peep. Look at some of the great players on here that are ripped relentlessly every day. The fact of the matter is some points guards have been bad defensively, and some are so bad that they almost erase their offensive output on the defense end. That describes Kyrie Irving. And he needs to improve tenfold in that category. Don't get offended by that. I'm betting Irving himself would agree with it.

I wouldn't mind calling last year a down year, but let's keep in mind Kyrie's down year (21/6/4) is still All-Star level. If that's a disaster I have no idea what kind of standards you're holding him too. Sure I'll readily admit he was a bad defender, but he also stayed healthy for a career high amount of games and had his best assist to turnover ratio to date. That stuff should matter when talking about last season, not the sole fact the Cavs underachieved.

And it's not groundbreaking stuff that opposing teams' players are going to be undervalued here; Westbrook, Bosh, and Carmelo are three players that are never going to get a fair shake around here. I still read people questioning how good Tim Duncan is. I don't get why you feel the need to do the same to Kyrie Irving, what's the point? Is it really that bad that his own fanbase has an optimistic view on one of the best young talents in the NBA?

 

[Chris]

I wouldn't mind calling last year a down year, but let's keep in mind Kyrie's down year (21/6/4) is still All-Star level. If that's a disaster I have no idea what kind of standards you're holding him too. Sure I'll readily admit he was a bad defender, but he also stayed healthy for a career high amount of games and had his best assist to turnover ratio to date. That stuff should matter when talking about last season, not the sole fact the Cavs underachieved.

And it's not groundbreaking stuff that opposing teams' players are going to be undervalued here; Westbrook, Bosh, and Carmelo are three players that are never going to get a fair shake around here. I still read people questioning how good Tim Duncan is. I don't get why you feel the need to do the same to Kyrie Irving, what's the point? Is it really that bad that his own fanbase has an optimistic view on one of the best young talents in the NBA?

Shit, I have an optimistic view on him. It's not like I'm mad that he's on our team. I just think he's better suited (far better suited) in the role that he is in now, flanked by James and Love. I also was pissed at him last year for pouting and being detrimental to the team, at times, when he should have been the rock of the team. Maybe that is expecting too much from a young player, they can't all be LeBrons, but as a "franchise player" you are held to a higher standard.

What's the point? Well, I don't know- to discuss basketball as we wait for the season to start, I suppose. It's not entertaining to me to just slobber all over our players, I think contradictory opinions make talks like this far more interesting. It is a forum, after all, and the point is to talk, argue, debate, whatever, not just be cheerleaders 24/7.

 

[AZCavs]

I can find problems with every top tier PG in the NBA:

Chris Paul can't lead a team deep into the playoffs.

Steph Curry is a turnover machine

Russell Westbrook is a ball stopper, a chucker and a turnover machine

Tony Parker is aging, has regressed defensively and has never been a consistent shooter.

Derrick Rose is an injury prone, ball stopping chucker

John Wall is a subpar shooter and turns it over at a high rate

I could continue for every other point guard in the league. Irving needs to work on his defense. We all that, but that doesn't automatically put him behind all these guys.

And the playoffs argument is complete bullshit, considering we're talking about a team sport. Michael Jordan once called Mitch Richmond, who was recently inducted into the hall of fame, the toughest shooting guard he competed against. I can count how many times Richmond made the playoffs on one hand. It's not that he couldn't lead them anywhere, it's just tough to do when you spend the majority of your career playing alongside the likes of players like Lionel Simmons, Duane Causwell and Olden Polynice.

Kyrie and Kevin Love played on shitty teams. That's why they didn't make the playoffs. Not because they didn't pick their sorry teammates up and put them on their back and lead them to the postseason.

 

[LBJordan23]

Even though i think Kyrie is top 20, and not top 10, John Wall should not even be in the convo.

Wall is one of those "addition by subtraction" players. The Wizards made the playoffs because Bradley Beal spreads the floor and Nene owns opposing bigs. I.e, Nene owned the dpoy Noah in the playoffs. Ariza was also the shutdown defender on that team, and the Wizards will miss him a lot this year. Pierce can only do so much at this stage.

Wall lacks bball Iq, his defense is horrendous, he lacks leadership and plays with a sense of entitlement. Players who think they are the best before earning it have proven to regress over their careers due to their lack of IQ. Rose, Steve Francis, Jordan Crawford (thinks he's better than Jordan), John Wall, Stephon Marbury, Sebastian Telfair. See the trend???

If i had an option of either having John Wall or NOT having him, i'm picking the latter.

 

[Chris]

Even though i think Kyrie is top 20, and not top 10, John Wall should not even be in the convo.

Wall is one of those "addition by subtraction" players. The Wizards made the playoffs because Bradley Beal spreads the floor and Nene owns opposing bigs. I.e, Nene owned the dpoy Noah in the playoffs. Ariza was also the shutdown defender on that team, and the Wizards will miss him a lot this year. Pierce can only do so much at this stage.

Wall lacks bball Iq, his defense is horrendous, he lacks leadership and plays with a sense of entitlement. Players who think they are the best before earning it have proven to regress over their careers due to their lack of IQ. Rose, Steve Francis, Jordan Crawford (thinks he's better than Jordan), John Wall, Stephon Marbury, Sebastian Telfair. See the trend???

If i had an option of either having John Wall or NOT having him, i'm picking the latter.

Um, what is all this about Wall based on, exactly?

 

[Cashius X]

Even though i think Kyrie is top 20, and not top 10, John Wall should not even be in the convo.

Wall is one of those "addition by subtraction" players. The Wizards made the playoffs because Bradley Beal spreads the floor and Nene owns opposing bigs. I.e, Nene owned the dpoy Noah in the playoffs. Ariza was also the shutdown defender on that team, and the Wizards will miss him a lot this year. Pierce can only do so much at this stage.

Wall lacks bball Iq, his defense is horrendous, he lacks leadership and plays with a sense of entitlement. Players who think they are the best before earning it have proven to regress over their careers due to their lack of IQ. Rose, Steve Francis, Jordan Crawford (thinks he's better than Jordan), John Wall, Stephon Marbury, Sebastian Telfair. See the trend???

If i had an option of either having John Wall or NOT having him, i'm picking the latter.

Wow...

 

[Ohio]

Out.

 

[Chris]

So, as I was saying.

 

[KI4MVP]

I'm telling you that, as much as I think Harden is overrated and despise him in every way, I would bet my mortgage on him being able to carry last year's Cavs team to the Eastern Conference playoffs, possibly a 5-6th seed. Bynum or not. Harden attacks the defense relentlessly and puts opposing bigs in foul trouble. His efficiency rating is still 11th in the league last year. Also top 4 in offensive win-shares.

As much as I love Kyrie, his < than 32 wins in the past 4 seasons is pathetic. I think playing with LeBron will help both, Kyrie and Love significantly though. LeBron will yell and scream and ask them to do more on both ends of the court. LeBron will expect them to play to win, not to one-up the other guy guarding them. Kyrie wasn't even top 20 in win-shares.

Kyrie and harden were just teammates. Kyrie was the better player.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

You're on crack if you think Irving is a top 10 player. I love the kid, but let them earn it before we hand over these accolades to them. The guy hasn't led a team to more than 32 wins in 4 seasons in one of the weakest Eastern conferences in the past several decades! LeBron led the Cavs to 35 wins his rookie season, with a less talented team.

List of players better than him, in no order.

LeBron
Durant
CP3
Westbrook
D12
Harden
Lamarcus Aldridge
Paul George
Melo
Dirk
Duncan (Yes even at this age, the guy is a monster in monster games)
Kawhli Leonard
Tony Parker
Kevin Love
Al Jefferson
Blake Griffin

That's an easy 16. Tony Parker & Duncan are the only "maybes".

Players that are equal/worse/better than Kyrie on any given night: Damian Lillard, Rose, Demarcus Cousins, Marc Gasol, Noah, Wall, Beal, Joe Johnson, Bosh

Somehow Al Jefferson made his list and Anthony Davis did not...can someone else explain that one to me? Haha

 

[winner0274]

Kyrie was not a top 10 player based on performance last year, but he is definitely a top 10 talent. He is so skilled that he could be legitimately be MVP of the league if he plays to his potential. His talent just jumps off the screen even when playing with the best players in the world.