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ESPN Player ranking - The Cavs players

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you go to where they competed head to head for a spot on a team, Irving not only made the team, he won tournament MVP while Wall gets cut.

To play devil's advocate, the coach of that team was Irving's college coach, and John Wall does not possess a skill set nearly as favorable to that particular brand of basketball was what Irving, Curry, and Lillard possess. Kyrie went on to win tournament MVP after Durant withdrew and Paul George got hurt.

I'd take Irving over Wall, but I agree with those who feel it's currently much closer than what this board would like to believe.
 
To play devil's advocate, the coach of that team was Irving's college coach, and John Wall does not possess a skill set nearly as favorable to that particular brand of basketball was what Irving, Curry, and Lillard possess. Kyrie went on to win tournament MVP after Durant withdrew and Paul George got hurt.

I'd take Irving over Wall, but I agree with those who feel it's currently much closer than what this board would like to believe.

you could perhaps argue the Duke thing if Kyrie was the last guy at the end of the bench. Instead he was the best player on the team and in the tournament. A team that even with the missing players still included a former League MVP as well as a current first team all NBA player.
 
To play devil's advocate, the coach of that team was Irving's college coach, and John Wall does not possess a skill set nearly as favorable to that particular brand of basketball was what Irving, Curry, and Lillard possess. Kyrie went on to win tournament MVP after Durant withdrew and Paul George got hurt.

I'd take Irving over Wall, but I agree with those who feel it's currently much closer than what this board would like to believe.

Whose fault is it that John Wall still can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?
 
Whose fault is it that John Wall still can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?

Meh. His jumper improves each year. It's not where those other guys are, but it's better than it was when he entered the league.

The response here, if I were arguing that Wall is the better player, is whose fault is it that Kyrie has gone 3 years without giving a damn defensively or showing anything more than adequate distribution skills. After all, Wall showed strong defensive ability even in flashes as soon as he entered the league because of his supreme athleticism and was putting up very good assist numbers while playing alongside the likes of Nick Young, Andre Blatche, and Javale McGee.

Again I want to make clear that I'm of the belief that Kyrie will put himself firmly into the discussion of best point guard in the NBA this season alongside the likes of Paul and Curry. To act like John Wall is some scrub who can't carry Kyrie's jock after what we saw last season is just a homer view in my opinion, however.
 
Meh. His jumper improves each year. It's not where those other guys are, but it's better than it was when he entered the league.

The response here, if I were arguing that Wall is the better player, is whose fault is it that Kyrie has gone 3 years without giving a damn defensively or showing anything more than adequate distribution skills. After all, Wall showed strong defensive ability even in flashes as soon as he entered the league because of his supreme athleticism and was putting up very good assist numbers while playing alongside the likes of Nick Young, Andre Blatche, and Javale McGee.

Again I want to make clear that I'm of the belief that Kyrie will put himself firmly into the discussion of best point guard in the NBA this season alongside the likes of Paul and Curry. To act like John Wall is some scrub who can't carry Kyrie's jock after what we saw last season is just a homer view in my opinion, however.

No one is acting like Wall is a scrub. Actually if you had asked me anytime before FIBA basketball I would've told you I believed John to be the better player. I thought he had the edge on Kyrie based off both of their careers and Wall's success is taking his team to the playoffs. However, after watching the USA exhibitions and watching Kyrie outplay John over, and over, and over again I find it ridiculous to still believe that John is better than Kyrie. Not to mention the fact that John Wall didn't even make first cuts while Kyrie went on to start for Team USA while winning Tournament MVP and a gold medal.

John is a great player but I feel that right now, based on everything they've done in their professional careers, Kyrie is clearly the better player. While the gap between them isn't too wide at the moment I still feel Kyrie is hands down the better player, and I expect it to stay that way over the course of both of their careers.
 
Plus, Kyrie phoned in the fuck out of last season (which I've called him out for dozens of times). It will be interesting to see how much better he plays this year with some actual motivation. LeBron won't let him slack.
 
Guys international tournaments are fun and all but using it to determine who is a better player. ..I don't agree with.
 
The only thing with this Wall/Irving stuff I've seen on here is that people act like they're enlightened when they have an opinion that goes against the grain.

Kinda like when "realizing" that Wiggins wasn't that good became cool again even though it was pretty vocal against him before Embiid's foot injury.

John Wall has his regular season numbers trending upward that is definitely going for him but the reputation of his shooting isn't going to go away unless he can provide more than one year of decent shooting (and his shooting was terrible in the playoffs when he was being left open btw, but "small sample size").

Kyrie's last season involving about 3 different offenses and obvious personnel flaws (including his own personal ones) may have people selling him now but in about a year you guys are going to be like the same guys who were besides themselves when they sold a stock a little bit too early before it blew up due to a bad fiscal period.

We gave Wall 4 years and 1 postseason before some annointed him as the class of PGs in the East. I don't know why Kyrie can't get the same.

Stability is part of the reason why Wall got to where he was last season, I have a feeling Kyrie will benefit as well.
 
Who is acting enlightened and whose opinion is against the grain? Kyrie was skewered by media nationally last year and saw his stock drop. Hes been bailed out by Lebron coming to the team in all honesty. Suddenly he's the third best player and the pressure on him has been cut by two thirds. But some of us aren't going to just forget how he performed last year, and "he was busy pouting" is hardly a great excuse.
 
Who is acting enlightened and whose opinion is against the grain? Kyrie was skewered by media nationally last year and saw his stock drop. Hes been bailed out by Lebron coming to the team in all honesty. Suddenly he's the third best player and the pressure on him has been cut by two thirds. But some of us aren't going to just forget how he performed last year, and "he was busy pouting" is hardly a great excuse.

So? That was last year. This is suppose to be a list of where these players are expected to perform for THIS year. He won't be double teamed like he was last year where they were doing it to him almost every trip down the court. Lebron's arrival should have a positive effect on Kyrie's play. It should be considered in that manner. Not, as something to try to rub in his face. If Irving didn't have the down year last season, people wouldn't even be making this comparison, Wall is a good point guard. I just don't think he is a great one. Irving can be great, and I expect him to start to achieve that this season. You can already see the effort on both ends of the floor in every game he has played this summer. Doesn't matter whether they are exhibition, tournament, or not. It is the way he is handling himself, his demeanor on the court, the effort being given that gives a hint at what we should expect from him this year.
 
Who is acting enlightened and whose opinion is against the grain?

With last season in mind and seeing a few posters (the recent culture as well) I can't help but feel that is an disingenuous question.

People are little to fast to bring John Wall to that kind of level. No one dominates the ball as much as he does and he still gets the Rondo treatment on his jumpers.
 
John Wall made 1.3 3 pointers a game last year at a 35% clip. This idea that he simply cannot shoot and needs no defensive attention outside the restricted area isn't correct. He has improved to the point that he needs to be defended.

Again, when it comest to defensive ability and ball distribution, he has always been one of the best in the eastern conference. The comparisons to Rondo in those areas are more valid than the jumper comparisons, IMO.

Regarding this stupid idea of rankings and whether they should be based on projections for this season or the results of last season, let's keep in mind that a lot of people were burned last year because they projected the Cavs to take a big step forward and make the playoffs while Kyrie reached the level of undisputed superstardom. Their expectations for Kyrie specifically are definitely being tempered as a result.
 
Who is acting enlightened and whose opinion is against the grain? Kyrie was skewered by media nationally last year and saw his stock drop. Hes been bailed out by Lebron coming to the team in all honesty. Suddenly he's the third best player and the pressure on him has been cut by two thirds. But some of us aren't going to just forget how he performed last year, and "he was busy pouting" is hardly a great excuse.

I thought he was our 3rd best player too. Between FIBA, the W&G scrimmage and the first preseason game I'm starting to wonder if he's actually going to be our 2nd best player this year.
 
I thought he was our 3rd best player too. Between FIBA, the W&G scrimmage and the first preseason game I'm starting to wonder if he's actually going to be our 2nd best player this year.

At the very least, because of the position he plays, he'll be the second most important player on this roster.
 
John Wall made 1.3 3 pointers a game last year at a 35% clip. This idea that he simply cannot shoot and needs no defensive attention outside the restricted area isn't correct. He has improved to the point that he needs to be defended.

John Wall isn't in catch in shoot situations very often due to the amount of time he has with the ball. He shoots only 34% in pull up situations and only 28% on his 3s.

He definitely deserves the Rondo treatment on his jumpers when more than half of his FGA (8.9/16.3) are pull-up jump shots.

John Wall's 35% 3pt percentage is his career high and expecting a dramatic increase to his shooting isn't something to bet on if he retains the same volume.

His playoff shooting is a bit more alarming. Although he faced some of the better defenses in the league, he was still allowed to shoot by the defenses as part of their schemes and Wall's shot was so bad he actually ended up shooting less than his average shooting 22% on his 3s.

Kyrie's playoff stats are to be determined as of now but on his down year shooting the ball he shot better than Wall on a higher volume along with an elite pull up percentage (his catch and shoot numbers were poor this season) in Walls BEST statistical shooting season. John Wall's pull up numbers just aren't very good for someone who handles the ball as much as he does averaging holding the ball for an average of 8 minutes per game (Kyrie averaged 6.2 in comparison).

Kyrie's body of of work shooting the ball and given the trend that shooting tends to return to the norm (some shooters just have bad years numbers-wise due to an inordinate cold streak).

There's a reason why Wall's reputation as a poor shooter hasn't gone away, he just hasn't had enough of a basis to justify buying into his shooting given the situations he is routinely in on this team. He's simply not in enough catch and shoot situations (1.8 FGA compared to 3.3 FGA for Kyrie last season) to help that case.

If John Wall is shooting the ball it is likely pull up, and he isn't a great one at that. Kyrie's numbers were at or near elite in that sense (8.5 FGA with 41% in both total and from 3)

You could worry about Kyrie's shooting off the catch this upcoming season and if last season is an indicator you would be justified, but I believe he's a better shooter than what he showed last season on the catch.

Stats were found on NBA.com
 

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