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Indians Are No Longer 'Cool'

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I didn't know recognizing that a player is good when healthy is being "on someone's nuts"...I apologize.

MLB isn't at fault for the drafting, but the system is at fault for Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Albert Belle, Cliff Lee, CC Sabathia, Victor Martinez, and others that the Indians developed going on to greener pastures.

And I never said Dolan was free of blame, I just said he was better than Lerner.

I don't know if I would say he's better than Lerner. Smart with FO hiring? yeah. But Lerner doesn't care about spending, which is obvious. He wouldn't let his players walk away. And you keep bringing up "when healthy" well damn, that's been about 2 years ago. Sizemore can easily lose his speed with this knee surgery, which is one thing he was good at using. His arm has always been average, he also strikes out a lot. There's no doubt he was good, but its been such a long time that it doesn't seem like he's on the team anymore. Also the way you talk about him, makes him out to be a superstar, franchise player, which isn't the case. I think you might be disappointed with how Sizemore does in 2011, if he even plays. You act as if 2008 is going to happen every year he's healthy, but I don't think that will happen.
 
Pro sports is what have you done for me lately?

In Sizemore's case...it's nothing.

He obviously hasn't done much in the past 2 years...but there's a big difference between a player being garbage and a player going through injury issues, especially when that player is still young.
 
I don't know if I would say he's better than Lerner. Smart with FO hiring? yeah. But Lerner doesn't care about spending, which is obvious. He wouldn't let his players walk away. And you keep bringing up "when healthy" well damn, that's been about 2 years ago. Sizemore can easily lose his speed with this knee surgery, which is one thing he was good at using. His arm has always been average, he also strikes out a lot. There's no doubt he was good, but its been such a long time that it doesn't seem like he's on the team anymore. Also the way you talk about him, makes him out to be a superstar, franchise player, which isn't the case. I think you might be disappointed with how Sizemore does in 2011, if he even plays. You act as if 2008 is going to happen every year he's healthy, but I don't think that will happen.

Not sure 2008 was even his best year...
 
I don't know if I would say he's better than Lerner. Smart with FO hiring? yeah. But Lerner doesn't care about spending, which is obvious. He wouldn't let his players walk away. And you keep bringing up "when healthy" well damn, that's been about 2 years ago. Sizemore can easily lose his speed with this knee surgery, which is one thing he was good at using. His arm has always been average, he also strikes out a lot. There's no doubt he was good, but its been such a long time that it doesn't seem like he's on the team anymore. Also the way you talk about him, makes him out to be a superstar, franchise player, which isn't the case. I think you might be disappointed with how Sizemore does in 2011, if he even plays. You act as if 2008 is going to happen every year he's healthy, but I don't think that will happen.

What has Randy Lerner accomplished as owner of the Browns? I'm not being sarcastic either...what has he accomplished?

Also, the NFL has a salary cap and a franchise tag, which pretty much keeps franchise players in their respective cities...that's the NFL, not Lerner.

As for Sizemore, we don't know how he'll come back from injury. My point is that he's not some garbage player, he's a very good player who hasn't been able to stay healthy the last two seasons. I'm not sure he's a superstar or a franchise cornerstone, but he's certainly an all-star caliber player.

Also, 2008 wasn't his only good year. His averages from 2005-2008:


.281 AVG, 27 HR, 81 RBI, 116 R, 29 SB, .371 OBP, .495 SLG, .867 OPS


Pretty good if you ask me. The Indians are also reportedly considering moving Sizemore to LF, which may help him stay healthy.
 
What has Randy Lerner accomplished as owner of the Browns? I'm not being sarcastic either...what has he accomplished?

Also, the NFL has a salary cap and a franchise tag, which pretty much keeps franchise players in their respective cities...that's the NFL, not Lerner.

As for Sizemore, we don't know how he'll come back from injury. My point is that he's not some garbage player, he's a very good player who hasn't been able to stay healthy the last two seasons. I'm not sure he's a superstar or a franchise cornerstone, but he's certainly an all-star caliber player.

Also, 2008 wasn't his only good year. His averages from 2005-2008:


.281 AVG, 27 HR, 81 RBI, 116 R, 29 SB, .371 OBP, .495 SLG, .867 OPS


Pretty good if you ask me. The Indians are also reportedly considering moving Sizemore to LF, which may help him stay healthy.

I've never said he wasn't a good player so you don't need to try and convince me. It's just every time you post about the Indians, its about how Grady will come back and be this star player, when we both don't know how he will come back. Your posts are like boobies, just the same repetitive shit (sorry). Also if he does come back, I hope he's moving to LF with Brantley at CF and Choo at RF.

Also what has Dolan accomplished? I like that Lerner has deep pockets and willing to spend to make the team better. The goal of any owner of a sports franchise is to win a championship. Since the return, Dolan and Gilbert have come the closest to that, no doubt. He also has as many championships as all 3 teams since 1999, which is 0. Obviously, Lerner is an idiot about spending money, but at least he spends. And he finally seemed to get it right this time (Holmgren and Heckert). I just don't see us winning a championship under Dolan which sucks.

I'm not saying spend like the Bankees or any other large market team, but some where around 80-90mil is perfect for me every year. That basically makes us competitive while keeping good talent. Once we dump our minor league talent into the big leagues, we need to find the keepers and lock them up immediately. Hopefully this offseason we can lock up Choo (or at least a short extension keeping him while in his prime) and Cabrera and next year Santana. That will keep the fans interested and show Dolan wants to win.

It's not about convincing your diehards (they'll come no matter what), but rather your average to non average fan, that this team is good and competitive. So far, they all have seen the Cavs being successful so naturally they want to see them play. Now that all these teams are equally bad, one team is going to come out on top and grab the attention of the neutral fans.
 
Meh, no superstar or franchise cornerstone, that is for sure... Those averages kinda scream Johnny Damon with a little more pop and many more K's... Yet, if they were both the same age, I would probably take Damon every time..
 
Cliff Lee shouldn't be playing for the Rangers and CC shouldn't be pitching for the Yankees. Flat out, you don't let two Cy Young winners get away in back to back years.

Well, I wish someone would have told him they were good players so he would have known to resign him.

Dan Gilbert not only would have signed them, but made damn sure the Indians won at least 120 games a season.

He'd also charge no admission, getting rid of those big league prices implemented by Czar Dolan...
 
Well, I wish someone would have told him they were good players so he would have known to resign him.

Dan Gilbert not only would have signed them, but made damn sure the Indians won at least 120 games a season.

He'd also charge no admission, getting rid of those big league prices implemented by Czar Dolan..
.

If Im not getting free nachos and drinks then I think its time to get a new owner... Randy Lerner!! step on down!.
 
I've never said he wasn't a good player so you don't need to try and convince me. It's just every time you post about the Indians, its about how Grady will come back and be this star player, when we both don't know how he will come back. Your posts are like boobies, just the same repetitive shit (sorry). Also if he does come back, I hope he's moving to LF with Brantley at CF and Choo at RF.

Also what has Dolan accomplished? I like that Lerner has deep pockets and willing to spend to make the team better. The goal of any owner of a sports franchise is to win a championship. Since the return, Dolan and Gilbert have come the closest to that, no doubt. He also has as many championships as all 3 teams since 1999, which is 0. Obviously, Lerner is an idiot about spending money, but at least he spends. And he finally seemed to get it right this time (Holmgren and Heckert). I just don't see us winning a championship under Dolan which sucks.

I'm not saying spend like the Bankees or any other large market team, but some where around 80-90mil is perfect for me every year. That basically makes us competitive while keeping good talent. Once we dump our minor league talent into the big leagues, we need to find the keepers and lock them up immediately. Hopefully this offseason we can lock up Choo (or at least a short extension keeping him while in his prime) and Cabrera and next year Santana. That will keep the fans interested and show Dolan wants to win.

It's not about convincing your diehards (they'll come no matter what), but rather your average to non average fan, that this team is good and competitive. So far, they all have seen the Cavs being successful so naturally they want to see them play. Now that all these teams are equally bad, one team is going to come out on top and grab the attention of the neutral fans.

I'm arguing against the "Dolan is cheap" and "Indians suck" crowd, yet I'm repetitive? Ohhhh sweet irony...

Indians Under Dolan: 3 winning seasons, 2 playoff appearances, 2 Division Titles
Cavs Under Gilbert: 4 winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, 2 Division Titles
Browns Under Lerner: 2 winning seasons, 1 playoff appearance, 0 Division Titles

Obviously none of them have brought a title, but the Browns have had the least success, and it's not even close. The last Browns playoff win was in 1995. I will repeat that, because it needs to really sink in. The last Browns playoff win was in 1995. He may spend, and he may be aggressive, but he's consistently put a crap product on the field.

We agree somewhat...the biggest difference is that I see the need to rebuild, while you want a consistent $80-90 M payroll. We agree that Sizemore should be in LF, that Choo, Cabrera, and later Santana should be locked up long term.
 
How can you argue against "Indians suck"?
 
How can you argue against "Indians suck"?

Depends what the person means...this year? No doubt. As a franchise? Not at all.

I just find it funny that my arguments with statistical backing and "repetitive" yet "Indians suck" and "Dolan is cheap" are not...that's all.
 
Depends what the person means...this year? No doubt. As a franchise? Not at all.

I just find it funny that my arguments with statistical backing and "repetitive" yet "Indians suck" and "Dolan is cheap" are not...that's all.

Let me guess, for the next week whenever you post, its going to have "repetitive" in there right? And I was saying your dream "2012" year and "Grady returning to an all-star form" was getting repetitive. So before you start putting words in my mouth about defending Dolan, get it right, that I wasn't talking about that.
 
Let me guess, for the next week whenever you post, its going to have "repetitive" in there right? And I was saying your dream "2012" year and "Grady returning to an all-star form" was getting repetitive. So before you start putting words in my mouth about defending Dolan, get it right, that I wasn't talking about that.

Let me guess, you're going to keep saying Lerner is a better owner because he's aggressive and wouldn't let his players walk away (ignoring that baseball doesn't have a salary cap or a franchise tag). So hey, I guess we're even!:)
 
Let me guess, you're going to keep saying Lerner is a better owner because he's aggressive and wouldn't let his players walk away (ignoring that baseball doesn't have a salary cap or a franchise tag). So hey, I guess we're even!:)

Actually, I wouldn't have brought up Lerner or any other owner if you didn't.

edit: didn't the NFL just get rid of their salary cap?
 
Actually, I wouldn't have brought up Lerner or any other owner if you didn't.

edit: didn't the NFL just get rid of their salary cap?

Nope, this year is just an uncapped year, but the cap will return
 

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