1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. From courtside seating to loudville Amazing Tickets offers a fantastic selection of Cavs tickets at the cheapest prices found anywhere.
  3. Please select the "Splash-Mobile" style if ads are breaking your tablet/phone's browser.

Is it is easier to put up good stats on a good team or a bad team?

Discussion in 'Around The NBA' started by Free Agency God, Jan 13, 2013.

?

Is it easier to put up good (especially advanced) stats on a good team or a bad team?

  1. It is easier to put up good (advanced) stats on a good team

    7 vote(s)
    63.6%
  2. It is easier to put up good (advanced) stats on a bad team

    4 vote(s)
    36.4%
  1. Free Agency God

    Free Agency God Birthing All-Stars

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    4,386
    Likes Received:
    4,705
    Location:
    Space
    We all keep on hearing the argument on whether it is easier to put up good stats on a good team or a bad team, and I'm not just talking about points, assists, and rebounds. I'm talking about all of the advanced metrics and whatnot that would really be able to read between the lines like TS%, AST%, REB%, PER, etc.

    I think that it's easier to put up good stats on a good team than it is on a bad team. If you're the ball handler, the floor is likely spaced out better, making it easier for drives and inside scoring. Also, because you have better teammates, you're less likely to be double-teamed. You'll also receive better picks and screens. Next, since you have better options to which you can pass, you'll average more assists because they'll make more shots.

    If you're not the ball-handler, you'll get better looks because you'll get better passes from a superior point guard. Other defenders will also pay less attention to you because of the other offensive threats on the floor, possibly even leaving you so to double team another player, so you will be able to again get easier looks. You will also get better screens from teammates, leading to better looks. Also, there is improved ball movement, which, again, will lead to better looks.

    On defense, you will get more help defense, better double teams, weak side blocks, TOs, steals, etc., that will lead to a better defensive rating.

    The one thing I think that is definitely harder to do on a good team is rebounds. We all saw Tristan's rebounds skyrocket once Andy went down, and that had to have had something to do with it. You'll just have more rebounders with which to compete.

    To play Devil's advocate, I'll throw out some other arguments as to how stats could lower. Other possibilities of stats decreasing may include points and assists due to there only being one ball on the floor at a time. However, with improved ball movement and as long as the player's usage % stays the same, everything should increase. With decreased usage, stats like points and assists could lower. I guess you could really potentially get better stats if you forced the issue and went against the team's wishes by handling the ball more and average better stats that way, but it may not be as beneficial for the team overall. Still, even if you're not handling the ball as much, you can always be on the receiving end and play off the ball scorer more often and still make quick come-and-go passes where you receive the ball, then pass it quickly in the name of ball movement and make up your assists that way. Even if your usage lowers some, having better teammates could allow you to make less assist attempts per game, but still get the same amount of assists if you were on a bad team, and you will also need less shots to get the same amount of points due to better efficiency.

    The one thing that should undeniably increase (more so than any other stat) is scoring efficiency because it isn't dependent on how often you get the ball, but how you get the ball and your situation whenever you score. With a better team, you should, on average, get easier looks whether you're playing on the ball or off the ball.

    But pretty much everything else will generally be easier when you're on a good team in my opinion.
     
  2. Jon

    Jon ~

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,425
    Likes Received:
    11,838
    There are some pluses to playing on a good team - especially for 3rd options in the offense, as they tend to get a bunch of open looks.

    But the main benefit of playing on a bad team is that you can get away with doing things that boost your individual stats at the expense of team performance. Want to try to block every shot and steal every ball you can swipe at? Go for it.

    It also tends to be easier to get what you want when your opponent rarely has to give a shit what you do, albeit there are exceptions to that if the opponent can shut down your entire team by constantly double teaming you.

    And then even for great players, there's the benefit of being able to play as many minutes and push your USG% as high as you can stand. Even when you look at a stat like PER that cares about efficiency you see that superstars tend to peak in seasons they don't have as much talent around them - teams where they are needed to do their thing and the other guys play a supporting role.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Free Agency God

    Free Agency God Birthing All-Stars

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    4,386
    Likes Received:
    4,705
    Location:
    Space
    Well, in that instance, I'd say that you're looking at it from a "what am I allowed to get away with because I'm on a bad team" standpoint. Let's make things easier. In our arguments, let's keep the usage of any player the same. It's not always realistic for a player's usage to stay the same, but it is not hard by any means for a player to keep his usage the same if he wants it to be. In such an instance, I don't see how a player's stats wouldn't improve overall with that number staying the same. For instance, in the 2008-2009 season, LeBron's PER peaked at 31.7, but his usage was 33.8. His PER is currently 29.5, but his usage is only 29.8. His PER to usage ratio is actually better this season than it was during his best season with the Cavs. Speaking of which, it would be interesting if there existed a PER stat that was usage adjusted and pace-adjusted (is it pace-adjusted? I can't remember).

    Also, gambling on every steal and block may make your basic stats better, but it will lead to more fouls and especially a worse defensive rating when your opponent PER is 20+. That's why I wanted to include and focus more so on advanced stats in our conversation.
     
  4. Douglar

    Douglar Intentionally Grounded Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    6,720
    Likes Received:
    14,586
    Depends.

    Back court?
    It's easier to get a higher shooting percentage on a good team when the shooter is a 4th option instead of a 1st option. (A.Jamison)
    It's easier to get a higher assist rate on a good team when the player doesn't have to score, plays next to guys that move off the ball and who hit their shots when you get them the ball. (K.Irving)

    Front court?
    It's a lot easier to get rebounds on a bad team when they don't expect you to block out and your teammates can't rebound at all. (K.Humphries).
    It's easier to get more blocks on a bad defensive team when they need a center who also plays free safety to fix all the leaks, unless that guy is so good (B.Wallace, D.Howard) that it works as a real defensive strategy.
     
  5. Jon

    Jon ~

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,425
    Likes Received:
    11,838
    PER is adjusted for pace, but it does favor per minute production, so USG% does play a factor. If you simply divided PER by USG%, however, I don't think that helps. For instance Kevin Jones has a 11.0 PER and a 9.6 USG%. So, that's actually greater than 1:1 ... but if we could somehow increase Kevin's USG% through the roof to 30%, I doubt we're going to get a 30+ PER.

    I know what you want to do, but DRtg doesn't get you there as it starts with the team's defensive rating, and then adjusts it based on the defense-related box score things you managed to do. So the player who blocked a lot of shots, stole a lot of passes and gave up a shitload of easy points is going to end up with a much better DRtg than a teammate who played conservatively and did a good job contesting shots.

    Of course a lot depends which "Advanced stats" we're talking about. Personally, I lean a lot on the "advanced stats" in 82games which show the on-court/off-court effect a player has ... and I do so because I think those stats have the best shot at showing a player's true value regardless of whether they're on a good or bad team. I also love the stuff that Synergy publishes, but that drills in on the individual performance and not so much the team factors.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  6. blommen

    blommen In the Rotation

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,472
    Likes Received:
    987
    Location:
    Denmark
    As far as advanced stats go I definitely think it's easier on good teams.
     
  7. brownindian

    brownindian In the Rotation

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,836
    Likes Received:
    602
    It depends on if u are a good player or a bad player. If u suck at basketball then u are better off being in a team with bad players ... That way your talent will get the benefit of doubt because you are in a bad team. IF you are in a good team and u take time to pad your stats then u will be easily exposed.

    If you are a good player, then it is easy to pad ur stats in a bad team but if u try padding ur stats in a good team which results in a loss or lack of team mate involvement then you will be traded to a bad team.
     
  8. STAT

    STAT Making the Leap

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    880
    Likes Received:
    1,226
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Dividing PER by USG% doesn't really make any sense considering that all of the variables used to calculate USG% (FGA, FTA, AST, TO, minutes, and pace) are already accounted for in PER. It creates a circular mess.
     
  9. Jon

    Jon ~

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,425
    Likes Received:
    11,838
    Definitely, but PER also favors players that shoot a lot - so there are some factors that aren't purely about production per minute.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page