Jim Thome Retires an Indian

[PIP]

I just don't think they had to give someone a statue because of that run.

Exactly... I'm sure Atlanta is bronzing up a Chipper statue right now.. Hell he at least one an MVP and got a ring..

Fact of the matter is-- 1998-1999-2000 Ramirez was the best player in franchise history... Give it to him... Hell, he only played 118 games in 2000 and look at those stats.

Thome getting a statue is just stupid... I'm more on board with Z getting his number retired than Thome getting a statue... How about little garden gnomes of Thome, Ramirez, Lofton, Alomar, Vizquel etc ??? But a statue ??

 

[PIP]

Jeter doesn't belong in same zip code of Ruth or Jordan. In fact, he isn't in Thome's class as a ballplayer either.

You shut your face....

 

[elcheato]

I think a lot of the argument against would be fine if we were arguing about the Yankees doing this. The Indians have been largely irrelevant for half a decade. I see no problem in making a statue for a player like Thome, even if he's not up to par with some of the other legends around the league who have statues. Give the fans something to celebrate, take pride in. Thome played the majority of his great years here, is the franchise's home run leader, and will be a first ballot hall of famer. Realistically, when is the next time a player recognized mainly for his time in Cleveland will be elected into the Hall of Fame? I cast serious doubt in Omar being elected, and if he does it will probably be in his last year of eligibility.

 

[ChicagoCavFan]

Wasn't a statue part of the package we offered Jim before he left for Philadelphia? I'm not for or against the thing, but its odd that it was offered to entice him to stay...and we still ended up going through with it.

 

[PIP]

He got a statue cause be pointed his bat out...community guy, blue collar guy, somebody the majority of the fan base identified with... And cause he pointed his bat out ...

 

[macbdog]

He got a statue cause be pointed his bat out...community guy, blue collar guy, somebody the majority of the fan base identified with... And cause he pointed his bat out ...

7th on the All-Time Home Run list. More than numerous other legends and more than all but two of the most egregious juicers, Bonds and ARod. More than the two poster children for the Steroid Era, McGwire and Sosa. Not his fault he was overlooked in his era by the fans. If Manny had not also been so obvious in his juicing, like Giambi and ARod, then of course he would be deserving of an honor like this. I guess people must hate numbers when it comes to analyzing Jim Thome that they don't realize he was one of the greatest power hitters to ever play the game.

 

[col63onel]

He got a statue cause be pointed his bat out...community guy, blue collar guy, somebody the majority of the fan base identified with... And cause he pointed his bat out ...

To be fair, he tended to hit the ball in the direction he pointed.

 

[Steve_424]

Batting average is a pretty worthless metric. I can't take you seriously if you use it for any type of analysis.

Gold Gloves is subjective, World Series are a team accomplishment. All of his hits are nice, but he ended up with a whopping 116 OPS+. That isn't once in a generation stuff.

If I just cited batting average I'd agree with you, but I provided BA/OBP/SLG/OPS. It's hard to take you seriously when you're cherry-picking parts of my post to try to make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about.

Gold Gloves are subjective (as are all awards), but Jeter was excellent defensively while in the prime of his career. Thome was a DH for nine full years. That matters when comparing who was the better overall player.

World Series titles are indeed a team accomplishment, but consistently putting up great numbers as an individual in those World Series games is what stands out about Jeter.

I didn't say he was Babe Ruth, but he is a very special player and was a much better player than Jim Thome.

 

[Derek]

Not to nitpick, but Thome was only a DH for 7 seasons with him being a part-time player the final 2 years.

 

[col63onel]

If I just cited batting average I'd agree with you, but I provided BA/OBP/SLG/OPS. It's hard to take you seriously when you're cherry-picking parts of my post to try to make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about.

Gold Gloves are subjective (as are all awards), but Jeter was excellent defensively while in the prime of his career. Thome was a DH for nine full years. That matters when comparing who was the better overall player.

World Series titles are indeed a team accomplishment, but consistently putting up great numbers as an individual in those World Series games is what stands out about Jeter.

I didn't say he was Babe Ruth, but he is a very special player and was a much better player than Jim Thome.

I "cherry picked" BA because that was the number that helped Jeter the most. Thome crushed him in OPS.

Jeter Has a career dwar of -9.2. He's had 3 seasons where he had a positive dwar, none were in his prime.

Thome had better World Series numbers. Jeter's teams happened to make more.

Thome was a MUCH better player during his peak, and had a much better "average" year. The only thing that gets Jeter into the same category as Thome is the fact that he was able to play more games at a high level. It's a quality vs quantity thing. I can buy an argument for Jeter having a better overall career.Saying Jeter was a "much better player" than Thome has no basis.

 

[Gimme Some Mo]

Thome was a great player, but not deserving of a statue IMO. Like many have said, I think statues should be reserved for all-time greats and/or historically iconic figures. Will kids even know who the hell Jim Thome is/was 10 years from now? Serious question. Everyone will remember guys like Jordan, Lombardi, Ruth, Jackie Robinson and even "lesser" guys like Wilt, Magic, Musial, Unitas, etc...

I bet you a LARGE majority of young fans don't even know who the hell Jim Thome is. That is not meant to be a knock on Thome. I'm just trying to prove a point that he doesn't stack up anywhere near the level of other guys that have statues. He's a hall of famer, but he isn't a guy that parents and grandparents will be telling their kids about. He isn't a guy that will live on forever as an icon in baseball. Shit, he isn't even an icon in Cleveland apparently, as many fans seem to be against this statue.

Even if he never left Cleveland in a shitty way (at least, IMO it was shitty), he still wouldn't deserve it. The fact that he left Cleveland just made this even more obvious he doesn't deserve it. If you are getting a statue, it should be a no doubter. Everyone should be on board with it. It seems like there is a pretty large percentage of Cleveland fans that either dislike this decision or are indifferent to it.

 

[AZ_]

If I just cited batting average I'd agree with you, but I provided BA/OBP/SLG/OPS. It's hard to take you seriously when you're cherry-picking parts of my post to try to make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about.

Gold Gloves are subjective (as are all awards), but Jeter was excellent defensively while in the prime of his career. Thome was a DH for nine full years. That matters when comparing who was the better overall player.

World Series titles are indeed a team accomplishment, but consistently putting up great numbers as an individual in those World Series games is what stands out about Jeter.

I didn't say he was Babe Ruth, but he is a very special player and was a much better player than Jim Thome.

This is nice, but Jeter didn't win any Gold Gloves in the "prime" of his career. He won his first at age 30, as season which he posted a -0.4 dWAR for the season.

I think if Thome played in Jeter's market, and hit 600 homers, we'd be talking about two different legends entirely.

It's impossible to compare the two as players, I don't even know why this is a discussion. But since you value defense so highly, why are you ignoring Jeter's -9.4 career dWAR in favor "Gold Gloves," an award merited most often by reputation as opposed to actual defensive prowess.

 

[Steve_424]

This is nice, but Jeter didn't win any Gold Gloves in the "prime" of his career. He won his first at age 30, as season which he posted a -0.4 dWAR for the season.

I think if Thome played in Jeter's market, and hit 600 homers, we'd be talking about two different legends entirely.

It's impossible to compare the two as players, I don't even know why this is a discussion. But since you value defense so highly, why are you ignoring Jeter's -9.4 career dWAR in favor "Gold Gloves," an award merited most often by reputation as opposed to actual defensive prowess.

I value defense in that I value the guy who wasn't strictly a DH for a large chunk of his career and had a good glove in his prime.

We do agree it's tough to compare the two - two totally different types of players. I'm just tired of fans dismissing Jeter's incredible career as something that's just built up by the media when it's not. And this is coming from a Yankee hater.

 

[Steve_424]

I "cherry picked" BA because that was the number that helped Jeter the most. Thome crushed him in OPS.

Jeter Has a career dwar of -9.2. He's had 3 seasons where he had a positive dwar, none were in his prime.

Thome had better World Series numbers. Jeter's teams happened to make more.

Thome was a MUCH better player during his peak, and had a much better "average" year. The only thing that gets Jeter into the same category as Thome is the fact that he was able to play more games at a high level. It's a quality vs quantity thing. I can buy an argument for Jeter having a better overall career.Saying Jeter was a "much better player" than Thome has no basis.

World Series

Jeter - .321/.384/.449/.832
Thome - .255/.352/.511/.862

I'm sorry, but I take Jeter's overalll numbers in World Series play, especially considering the increased difficulty of putting up these numbers in far more games than Thome (and under the pressure that comes from playing in NY). I also don't think .862 vs .832 in OPS is "crushing" someone.

I think Jim Thome and Derek Jeter were very different players. I think Jim Thome was a better power hitter. I think Derek Jeter was a better overall player. And I think Larry Doby not getting a statue over Jim Thome is awful.

As always, we can agree to disagree.

 

[col63onel]

I value defense in that I value the guy who wasn't strictly a DH for a large chunk of his career and had a good glove in his prime.

We do agree it's tough to compare the two - two totally different types of players. I'm just tired of fans dismissing Jeter's incredible career as something that's just built up by the media when it's not. And this is coming from a Yankee hater.

We;re saying he's a great player, but the media HAS convinced people he's a generational player. He's not even the best SS of his generation, much less player.