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Johnny Manziel: Swan Won't Return His Calls

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He should be ready to spell a guy who's last four stat-lines have been:
- 20/50, 330 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT
- 23/40, 322 yards, 0 TDs, 3 INT
- 18/30, 192 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INT
- 14/31, 140 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INT

Hoyer has thrown more TDs than INTs in 1 game since the Browns won vs. Pittsburgh. It was against Oakland where he had 1 TD and 0 INT.

Johnny has got to be ready enough to out-pace that. If he's not, I worry a little bit.

The argument is not, well he can't be worse than Hoyer, the argument is is he read to perform consistently at a high level. This isn't so much Hoyers inability but more Johnnys long term viability


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Couch and McCoy Id say would have benefited from sitting. Lack of talent only magnifies a rookies flaws even more.

Problem is most quarterbacks who had to play right away and play well are four year starters in college and start on a team that has way more talent than the Browns currently have.


On a side note, having to read that list was extremely depressing.


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The Browns have plenty of talent for a young quarterback right now. It sucks that Mack is out but the O line will still keep him upright which is still leagues ahead of what Couch had when the Browns came back. He has some weapons, not enough, but some. Gordon might be dogging it a bit for some mysterious reason but he's still great. Cameron, Hawkins, etc. A solid defense.

Problem is and always has been talent at the QB position. We've taken 4 first round QBs since 1999, right? Couch was ruined because the team was a "dumpster fire" as said before, who knows if he would have been good. Quinn just sucks, dude is out of the league. Weeden was a horrible pick that almost nobody seemed to agree with, just awful. And Manziel, well, enough has been said on him and we haven't really seen who is right yet.

The point is the Browns haven't exactly taken QBs that have consensus plus grades. Just once I want to see them land a top flight QB in the draft that people are salivating over.
 
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He should be ready to spell a guy who's last four stat-lines have been:
- 20/50, 330 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT
- 23/40, 322 yards, 0 TDs, 3 INT
- 18/30, 192 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INT
- 14/31, 140 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INT

Hoyer has thrown more TDs than INTs in 1 game since the Browns won vs. Pittsburgh. It was against Oakland where he had 1 TD and 0 INT.

Johnny has got to be ready enough to out-pace that. If he's not, I worry a little bit.
Except we can walk away from Hoyer at the end of the season. Manziel is intended to be the franchise guy for the next 10+ years. Him coming out and getting exposed because he isn't prepared doesn't do anything to build a foundation for his career, and the coaching staff knowing that and taking the time to get him up to speed isn't a condemnation of Manziel.

As soon as he's in, he's in. The clock on how long he has to perform before solidifying his spot on this team long term or getting washed out starts ticking. The longer he has to prepare before that first snap, the better his chances will be.
 
Except we can walk away from Hoyer at the end of the season. Manziel is intended to be the franchise guy for the next 10+ years. Him coming out and getting exposed because he isn't prepared doesn't do anything to build a foundation for his career, and the coaching staff knowing that and taking the time to get him up to speed isn't a condemnation of Manziel.

As soon as he's in, he's in. The clock on how long he has to perform before solidifying his spot on this team long term or getting washed out starts ticking. The longer he has to prepare before that first snap, the better his chances will be.

I have no idea what we're talking about at this point... Moving target...

I'm just saying that if Johnny isn't capable of besting the stat-lines I posted for Hoyer, it's not ideal.
 
Couch and McCoy Id say would have benefited from sitting. Lack of talent only magnifies a rookies flaws even more.

Problem is most quarterbacks who had to play right away and play well are four year starters in college and start on a team that has way more talent than the Browns currently have.


On a side note, having to read that list was extremely depressing.


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Yeah I won't argue with you on McCoy, but he was forced into action because of two injuries ahead of him on the depth chart. On Johnny - I wasn't in favor of him starting Week 1... but the fact is, he's had an offseason and 14 weeks of sitting to develop. I like to think he's come a long way and is much more ready than say, week 1. Only one way to find out. I just don't buy into the theory that he will somehow be ruined by starting three games this year, rather than sitting three more, having an offseason, and starting next year.
 
The argument is not, well he can't be worse than Hoyer, the argument is is he ready to perform consistently at a high level.

That's an impossibly high standard. Performing at a high level is tough enough. Performing consistently at a high level means you're a Pro Bowler. How many QB's, rookies or not, are "ready to perform consistently at a high level" even before their first start?

If that's the standard that must be met before a QB can get his first start, we'd see 32 teams playing the single wing with Vickers clones as quarterbacks.
 
And which young quarterbacks were those? Let's go to our favorite list:

Couch
Detmer
Wynn
Pederson
Holcomb
McCown
Garcia
Dilfer
Frye
Dorsey
Gradkowski
Anderson
Quinn
Delhomme
Wallace
McCoy
Lewis
Weeden
Campbell
Hoyer

Which of those again was young and ruined by playing early?

Tim Couch, who is IMO the best quarterback we've had since 1999, was 'ruined' because the team around him was a dumpster fire. Not because he played right away.

And before you say Brady Quinn, know that he sat his entire rookie year of 2007 until the final game, mid-game when DA got hurt. Lot of good that did him.

The problem with our quarterbacks in the past is that they have lacked talent, not that they've been thrown into the fire.

The young guys on that list sucked not because they were played too early, but because they sucked.

They all had chances to go to other places and none of them succeeded.
 
Hoyer has been terrible, yet Manziel still isn't named the starter. That tells me everything other than Johnny is ready. I have a suspicion that he's not near ready, it's not a claim.

The problem with the "he's not playing because he's not ready" assumption is that it is circular. What conclusion do we draw if Hoyer got the start last week, but Manziel is named the starter this week? That Manziel was "not ready" to start as QB yesterday, but somehow, between yesterday and tonight, and with no practices in between to demonstrate improvement, he somehow became "ready"?
 
I think the thing with Manziel, is that he might be one of these Quarterbacks that plays better in the game, compared to practices. So, you might never get a great idea what he can do until game-day comes.

This isn't me suggesting practice is not important, obviously it is, especially at the QB position.

But make no mistake, there's no harm in actually playing him. This is not a team that's completely underachieving, and you're setting him up to get slaughtered out there.

You have a good running game, which is every young QB's best friend, an all-pro receiver in Gordon, and a pro-bowl tight end in Jordan Cameron.

The offensive line isn't great, but Johnny is mobile enough to extend plays that Hoyer can't.

I don't think its that difficult to put Johnny in good enough situations to execute the offense respectfully.

It can't be worse than Hoyer (lately), it just can't.

I think that reason Manziel has not started yet, has more to do with the Browns not being thrilled with his practice/study habits than anything.

And although the "he didn't start because he went to the Cavs game" to me is something I don't believe at all, or was overblown, you do got to wonder if he's not doing enough studying, and not putting in the extra work you'd expect from a QB.

And if that's true, then I'd be very concern, because Johnny's antics have definitely come into question before.
 
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The "GOING TO THE CAVS GAME" excuse is all fucking bullshit, and I dont ever want to hear that shit again.

This is fucking ridiculous. Im tired of these excuses. Fucking same ass Cleveland Browns bullshit. Gimme back my fucking money from the season tickets.
 
Pretty impressive how many experts we have in developing quarterbacks here. Manziel is different than other former Browns QB draft picks because of the kind of player he was in college.

Manziel is better at improvising than running a scripted play. They are trying to teach him to work within the context of the play without breaking it off prematurely. This has been done many years with projects who came from run-first college offenses with mixed results as well. Rich Gannon, Steve Young, and Aaron Rodgers showed us a run first college QB can learn to play within the pocket and use mobility / eluding skills to buy time instead of play hero ball.

On the flipside: Tim Tebow, Timm Rosenbach, Vince Young, and Colin Kaepernick have shown that old habits can die hard. Did giving Kaepernick more playing time teach him to read a defense? After watching a lot of 49er football the past few years I can say no. And the coaches who are struggling to teach Kaepernick how to mentally approach the position are the same guys who straightened out Alex Smith in only one season. The former Urban Meyer protégé struggled with pro offenses for years, coordinators rotating in and out, but Harbaugh was able to get him on the right track.

So I really don't think benching Manziel when he hasn't demonstrated what the coaches need him to demonstrate is necessarily hindering his development. Assuming the coaches are at fault without knowledge of what Manziel is or isn't doing throughout the week is incredibly short-sighted. His biggest weakness seems to be coachability and discipline.
 
The "GOING TO THE CAVS GAME" excuse is all fucking bullshit, and I dont ever want to hear that shit again.

This is fucking ridiculous. Im tired of these excuses. Fucking same ass Cleveland Browns bullshit. Gimme back my fucking money from the season tickets.

I think you'd have to be really naive, to seriously think that's why he didn't start.

But, I do think the Browns organization, are clearly concerned, or displeased with how Johnny conducts himself.

There's never been much of a secret about that, and we don't get to see it up close and personal either.

So their concerns, might be very valid ones.
 
The going to Cavs game thing is just .... lol ... there are no legs to them being upset about that, I would think. Just too ridiculous even for this team.
 
If going to a Cavs game is such a big deal they better be benching Haden too. He's there all the fucking time.
 
For the love of God, please stop. You've said absolutely nothing to refute that QBs with limited starting experience in college rarely see any significant success at the NFL their first year.

The first year is pretty much over dude, so this is pointless. Had they started johnny at the beginning of the year id agree with you, but Hoyer is who he is.

The only QB I can think of that had an iota of immediate success with as few college starts as Johnny is Mark Sanchez, who had the Jets in the playoffs his rookie year and led a couple upsets once there (most notably over the Pats in Foxboro).

Once again the year is pretty much over, I'm arguing we put him in over Hoyer not that he's going to light it up. I said he could as in its possible. I never said it was highly probable.

His numbers on the year were terrible though- 53.8% completion %, 2444 PaYds, 15 TDs, 20 INTs (10 fumbles). Anyone that remembers that team attributes its success to a dominant defense anchored by two future HOFers in John Abraham and Darrelle Revis, not their middling rookie QB.

And forgive me for not trusting boobie's talent evaluation of johnny who claimed Braylon was great and that rg3 would be dominate.


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