Johnny Manziel: Swan Won't Return His Calls

[caf]

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[The Human Q-Tip]

In my opinion, a quarterback should have three main qualities.
1) Preparation- In a game of inches a single play can be the difference between a win and a loss. This requires a quaterback to put in mind numbing hours analyzing the upcoming opponents defense. Rinse and repeat.

I've lost count of the number of quarterbacks who will admit to not putting in the necessary time until they've actually played some. While the argument may be that they were "slacking", I think it's equally the case that there is only so much you can learn from a book without having the chance for practical application. One huge virtue of letting Manziel start these last three games is that he will have first-hand knowledge as to what he needs to do to improve.

2) Identify coverage under center- All that preparation is rather useless unless you can identify the defensive scheme on the field, in real time, and adjust.

That is a learned skill, and it takes time under center to get good at it. College defenses tend to be much more vanilla, and very few QB's come out of college with this skill developed.

3) Capable of running a prostyle offense- There's a reason gimmick offense come and go in the NFL. Because they don't work in the long run. Remember the wildcat?

We don't know if he is capable of running a prostyle offense. We just know that he wasn't asked to do that in college. Look, college kids all come out of high-school, comparatively few of which run sophisticated pro-style offenses. So those guys you see running pro offenses in college were guys that had to learn that after high school. No reason that such offenses can only be learned in college.

Of course, we'd all prefer to be able to draft a guy who is fully mature, who can identify coverages under center, who've run pro-style offenses, and of course have the required arm strength and accuracy. But Andrew Luck isn't available in every draft, so you've got to look at the guys who are available, exclude the most flawed ones, and hope the guy you pick can develop into a pro QB.

 

[Randolphkeys]

It's something of a chicken/egg problem, but I don't believe that building everything else and only then adding a QB is smart.

I totally agree that it's a chicken/egg situation. However, we have gone egg, egg, egg, egg since the 2005 season with Dilfer... I'm suggesting a little chicken finally.

1) Without a decent QB, the rest of your offense will suck, and worse, you'll have a very difficult time evaluating the talent at those positions. Are the WR's unable to get open/running bad routes, or does the QB telegraph his throws/is inaccurate? Can the OL not block, or is the QB giving plays away or holding the ball too long? Do the RB's suck, or is it the lack of a passing threat that stifles the running game? We've gone through all of those debates before, not knowing what we have elsewhere because the QB sucks.

One thing we have been discussing this season is tiers of QBs. Through that discussion I've noticed that the majority of NFL fans agree there are about 4-5 QBs everyone wants. There are an additional 3-4 QBs fans would be very comfortable with week in and week out. That leaves about 20-22 NFL teams that have a shaky QB who can go through bad stretches every season. I think NFL fans make a mistake thinking in black and white terms at QB. There are roughly 20 franchises who are going to have to think in terms of shades of grey, by necessity.

2) The QB has the longest shelf life of any offensive player, being able to excel into his mid-30's. Other positions, much less so. By the time you draft everything else, and then go after your QB and take a couple of years for him to develop, the team you so carefully built is going to start falling apart due to age, free agency, etc.. Especially if you have to cycle through another shitty QB or two to find the guy that works.

But NFL fans seem to lose patience with quarterbacks if there are two bad weeks in a row, let alone the patience for a young QB to develop over the course of a few years. Look no further than Colin Kaepernick, who is getting run out of town at age 27. After four years of never catching onto reading a defense, many fans out here are ready for him to leave. Same with Cincy and Dalton, same with Cutler in Chicago. I think they are all grey area QBs. If the Browns are able to get a grey area QB because other fans are seeing in black and white, it would improve this team greatly. That would also put Johnny on the bench for longer. I believe by the end of this season it will become obvious that is where he belongs at least until he has better pocket skills.

3) The best QB prospects usually go high in the draft, and if you build a "pretty good" otherwise team first, you'll be stuck with shittier picks to get that QB.

If there is indeed a franchise QB at the top of the draft, I'm not against it. I was the first to say tank for Luck around here. I just haven't seen a sure thing since Luck to make liquidation of existing talent worth it.

4) QB is easily the highest-impact player on a team. If you don't have a good one and you have a high pick, you've got to go for the impact.

Yes, please draft for impact. As the Pro Bowl voting shows, the team seems on the right path for building a good team despite QB play. Finish the job.

5) Much easier to get a good WR in FA than a good QB. They tend to be prima donnas, and teams generally can't afford more than one stud WR, so they tend to go on the market.

It's obviously more difficult to evaluate your QB if the rest of the team sucks, but you can still learn a lot. Missing wide open pass catchers/inaccuracy is unsatisfactory no matter how good the rest of the team is. And in any case, we're no longer in that situation. Our WR corps was at least decent this year. And our running game was good for a good chunk of the season as well. Injuries are hurting us now, but at least for awhile, the rest of the team was good enough to evaluate the QB. And next year, with Mack returning, two good sophomore RB's, and our pass catchers, the offense apart from the QB should be above average.

I haven't been as bullish on our receivers as others on the site. Yeah, I know, PFF stats.... but as soon as Johnny played last week, a whole lot more Browns fans started complaining about the lack of receivers, didn't they? I think Gordon hasn't shown that he is in the kind of groove he was in last season, and everyone else has been exposed now that the season has worn on. I do think Mack is the key to pass protection and a running game, but Cameron is likely gone and the receivers are lacking in my opinion.

I don't believe there has ever been a purposeful (on the part of the franchise) attempt at a QB controversy here. Everyone (except perhaps the backup himself) wants the primary guy to succeed. It's only when he looks to be failing that people want the backup, but that's not because they want a controversy - it's because they want a competent QB.

I am still surprised my suggestion that ownership is more hands on than years past was met with criticism in another thread. The last Browns owner had a brain tumor, then he had a son who cared more about soccer. Now Haslam is here and the suggestion that he is active in marketing and sales concerns gets pot shots. Hey, choose to learn how pro sports work or don't. No sweat off my ass.

 

[AZ_]

But...that basically is one game. Other than the Buffalo game where he actually looked pretty decent.

I really don't have an opinion on Manziel at all, and (no offense intended) I've got no reason to trust one armchair talent evaluator's opinion over another. You're taking into account what you saw in his college performances, but other people doing the exact same thing reached a different conclusion. Only way to settle it is on the field.

One thing that does puzzle me is why folks seem to want to make a decision on him right now. Maybe his performance may affect who you bring in during the offseason but, why the rush now.? Still have two more games to see if he can show improvement.

No, it's not one game.

It's an entire collegiate career followed by one full NFL game.

I'm not sure why we need to discount all of what we saw in college, as though Manziel is suddenly going to become a completely different quarterback at the next level.

That reckless style of play and bad mechanics are part of who he was. The fans love to root for the little guy, but reasonably intelligent NFL defensive coordinators have the talent to stop that at this level that they did not have in the SEC.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I totally agree that it's a chicken/egg situation. However, we have gone egg, egg, egg, egg since the 2005 season with Dilfer... I'm suggesting a little chicken finally.

I think we've got a good enough "everything else" at this point, at least on offense. We can certainly get better at some positions, but no matter who the QB is, they'll be surrounded by the best offense we've had since the Return. Our running game next year should be top 5, which is a monstrous help to a QB. The receiving corps with Gordon looks pretty good, although an upgrade there would be nice. I'd prefer to get the WR in FA, though.

Through that discussion I've noticed that the majority of NFL fans agree there are about 4-5 QBs everyone wants. There are an additional 3-4 QBs fans would be very comfortable with week in and week out. That leaves about 20-22 NFL teams that have a shaky QB who can go through bad stretches every season. I think NFL fans make a mistake thinking in black and white terms at QB. There are roughly 20 franchises who are going to have to think in terms of shades of grey, by necessity.

I'd say that unless you have one of those top 10 guys, you don't have a realistic chance to compete for a title.

If the Browns are able to get a grey area QB because other fans are seeing in black and white, it would improve this team greatly.

We'd go from being mediocre to being a bit better than mediocre. While that's better than going in the other direction, I don't believe it gets you any closer to playing in/winning a Super Bowl.

As the Pro Bowl voting shows, the team seems on the right path for building a good team despite QB play.

Oddly, I think it shows the exact opposite. What the Pro Bowl voting shows is that even if you have good talent at other positions, you're likely still not going to be better than mediocre team if your QB sucks.

I haven't been as bullish on our receivers as others on the site....

I'm not sure how bullish I am either. I just think they're good enough that they don't constitute a valid excuse for consistently poor QB play.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

No, it's not one game.

It's one game of seeing if he can adapt to the NFL. Everything before that, while relevant, is still speculation/projection.

I'm not sure why we need to discount all of what we saw in college, as though Manziel is suddenly going to become a completely different quarterback at the next level.

I think college generally shows what a QB can do. It doesn't always show what he can't do. The two biggest defects that generally will never be overcome are arm strength and accuracy. Manziel seemed good enough in those categories. And he's not stupid.

Manziel did what he was asked to do. His pocket passing numbers were actually quite decent, but the truth is he did what he could get away with in college because he could get away with it. We don't know how he would/could have been developed differently had his coaches taken a different direction.

 

[AZ_]

It's one game of seeing if he can adapt to the NFL. Everything before that, while relevant, is still speculation/projection.

I think college generally shows what a QB can do. It doesn't always show what he can't do. The two biggest defects that generally will never be overcome are arm strength and accuracy. Manziel seemed good enough in those categories. And he's not stupid.

Manziel did what he was asked to do. His pocket passing numbers were actually quite decent, but the truth is he did what he could get away with in college because he could get away with it. We don't know how he would/could have been developed differently had his coaches taken a different direction.

His pocket passing numbers were predicated on a simplistic collegiate scheme, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on these other points.

We've seen him in six contests now to showcase his skill-set at the NFL level. I don't care about pre-season numbers or a drive against Buffalo, but it gives us a look into how he operates now as opposed to what he did in college.

There is little to no change.


The projection of prospects to the league isn't just speculative, it's based on historical evidence and a full evaluation of their skill-set. I feel as though some think it's just a shot at the dartboard as to whether or not a guy will work out, when there is a clear science behind it.

An imperfect science, but a science nontheless.

What we've seen thus far only reinforces that collegiate evaluation many gave.

Once you get past all the "he's so dynamic, he's a playmaker, etc." rhetoric and focus on his actual skill-set and lack of experience, it's hard to see why anyone would be over-the-moon for him as a prospect.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I'd say that unless you have one of those top 10 guys, you don't have a realistic chance to compete for a title.

I'd like you to meet Phil Simms, Jim McMahon, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco... and that is just the average QBs who won it, plenty of average QBs have come just short. Yeah, I just don't agree.

I think we've got a good enough "everything else" at this point, at least on offense.

Not even close, they have a great starting offensive line and some young backs who aren't ready for the glue factory yet. Gordon might turn it around. Other than that, meh. They could use some offensive play makers, and more Browns fans seem to see it this week. Scapegoating Hoyer became a lot less convenient with Johnny's performance.

I'm not sure how bullish I am either. I just think they're good enough that they don't constitute a valid excuse for consistently poor QB play

Again, by talking to fans of so many different franchises, I keep seeing only about ten franchises who aren't critical of their QB. The ten QBs who aren't generating sweaty palms aren't lining up to leave their stable franchises to come to Cleveland. Aside from criticizing the QBs on the roster, find a plan that involves winning with an average QB. There is a better chance of getting one of those than drafting some miracle worker. And if the miracle happens, awesome, I won't complain.

 

[AZ_]

Plenty of average QBs have had the chance to compete for a championship, some even won them.

Very few teams can CONSISTENTLY compete for that crown with below average QB play.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Plenty of average QBs have had the chance to compete for a championship, some even won them.

Very few teams can CONSISTENTLY compete for that crown with below average QB play.

Sure, of course. The two who come to mind quickly are the Joe Gibbs Redskins and the Tom Coughlin Giants, but a top QB is always going to help a team consistently get to the playoffs. The question is how to get a top 5 QB... and how many QBs become top 5 with a crappy offensive supporting cast. I can think of Tank for Luck working out... Dan Marino carried bad Miami teams a while... that is about it off the top of my head. I have an easier time thinking about average QBs who entered their prime years and became very good QBs finally being surrounded with a good supporting cast. Brad Johnson, Rich Gannon, Steve Young, Drew Brees... plenty of guys who took the next step in their "quarterback prime" years, which is probably in their late 20s into their early 30s.

 

[Simmy]

Thought I'd contribute a little humor to very thorough discourse above:

Johnny Manziel's season in a nutshell (get it?):

 

[bob2the2nd]

In my opinion, a quarterback should have three main qualities.
1) Preparation- In a game of inches a single play can be the difference between a win and a loss. This requires a quaterback to put in mind numbing hours analyzing the upcoming opponents defense. Rinse and repeat.

2) Identify coverage under center- All that preparation is rather useless unless you can identify the defensive scheme on the field, in real time, and adjust.

3) Capable of running a prostyle offense- There's a reason gimmick offense come and go in the NFL. Because they don't work in the long run. Remember the wildcat?


Johnny showed none of these qualities in college. And so far has shown none of these qualities in the NFL... In spite of being one snap away from the starting position all year.

No one here is patting themselves on the back. Everyone wants the guy to succeed, as most of us root for the name on the front of the jersey and not the back. We are just calling a spade, a spade.

The Chuck Booms of the world can yell and scream about his personality and all these other qualities that don't win football games. Until Johnny starts showing VAST improvement in the three areas above, I'll have my doubt's.

this. this and this.

and whats worse is i cant say i saw any improvement in what manziel showed last week from what he showed in the preseason. If he continues to look like hot dogshit the the next two weeks, i legitimately consider getting rid of him. Or at least drafting another QB in the 2nd or 3rd round

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[Tornicade]

What type fof improvement were you looking for

Manziel made a couple plays that Hoyer just isnt capable of. He is the most talented QB on the roster and his major limitation at this point isnt he hasnt played any games. He might be more advanced if they had committed to the Manziel package.. perhaps Hoyer would stil be starting and the Browns legitimately competing for playoffs. They went a different route so now we have Manziel starting the last three games.

The Bengals played one of their best defensive games of the season. Theres no way to prepare a quarterback for that without actually experiencing it.

3rd and two they gave Manziel an option with nowhere to run to. the next 3rd and two they gave it to West who also had nowhere to run to.

Manziel did a nice job stepping through the pocket and making the pass even though he had a running lane he could of easily tucked the ball. He threw on ball with a hand around his ankle that was an interception.. not something unusual for a rookie quarterback to make. and he hesitated and threw a floater on the other interception.

Manziel though has to make the big plays to counter his bad ones. he didnt do that against the Bengals. hopefully he does against Carolina.


He had some nice audibles to that weren't executed properly Manziel has to find a balance between pulling the trigger in rhythm of his drop and extending plays with his mobility and it needs to improve from 50/50.


He also needs to work on his hand offs. those were atrocious.

 

[bob2the2nd]

What type fof improvement were you looking for

ill take anything for 1000 alex

 

[DJTJ]

I wonder if Kyle will decide that running an offense out of the pistol is absolutely pointless, and that you shoot yourself in the foot by doing it.