1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. From courtside seating to loudville Amazing Tickets offers a fantastic selection of Cavs tickets at the cheapest prices found anywhere.

Just as Bad as the Record Indicates

Discussion in 'Cavs Talk' started by Stark, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. Stark

    Stark Keeping the Faith

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    7,895
    Likes Received:
    4,639
    Location:
    THE Ohio State University -- Mansfield
    Before I get started here, just let it be known that I know the Cavaliers aren't good, or really even average. They're in the midst of a rebuilding project and currently sit at 7-25, which is good enough for fourteenth in the conference. However, this team is not as bad as the record indicates. First of all, you have to remember that this team has played chunks without arguably their three best players in Kyrie, Andy, and Waiters.

    We've seen occasional flashes of what is yet to come with this ballclub, with that early win in Los Angeles against the Clippers when Dion dropped 28 points, or the more recent game when we beat the Lakers at home when Kyrie returned to the club.

    We're not far off. We've really only been blown out in a select few games. As I watched the game tonight, Fred McLoud said that the Cavaliers have either held the lead or been within six points in the fourth quarter of all but four of their games. For this young of a team, I find this to be a very impressive statistic.

    I'm going to go through now and list all of the games that we've lost by five or less points thus far this season, and I will keep it updated as we go throughout the year.

    November 3rd, 2012 @ Milwaukee: 105-102 - Who couldn't remember our first heartbreak of the season? The controversial game winning three point shot hit by Brandon Jennings sealed our fate in what was a very hard fought game early in the season. Kyrie had twenty-seven points and seven assists that night and Andy chipped in fifteen boards. I would of loved to see what would of happened if that game would of went to overtime.

    November 9th, 2012 @ Phoenix: 107-105 - I don't really remember too much about this game. Looking back, I think this was a game I couldn't catch, but we only lost by two away at Phoenix. Dion Waiters had twenty-three points in our close loss.

    November 23rd, 2012 @ Orlando: 108-104 - Note that we didn't have Kyrie Irving in this game. This was another game I couldn't catch, but Orlando is currently going after a playoff spot, and we kept it competitive without our best player. Waiters had twenty-five points and Varejao had seventeen boards.

    November 24th, 2012 @ Miami: 110-108 - The second night of a back-to-back, against the defending champions, in their own building, without our best player? I'm normally optimistic, and I had written us off for about a thirty-five point loss that night. What a game it was. It makes you wonder what would of happened if we had Kyrie.

    December 1st, 2012 vs. Portland: 118-117 - I'm pretty sure this is the game where Batum hit that three in the corner to seal our fate and send us to another heart-breaking loss. This was another game without Kyrie against a team with a .500 record in the hunt out West. Once again, I would of loved overtime to see how it would of turned out, but, not everything goes our way.

    December 14th, 2012 vs. Milwaukee: 110-106 - I personally do not remember one thing that happened in this game, so I'll just let you know that Kyrie had twenty-six points and Andy threw in eighteen boards. Just remember that Milwaukee is the fourth seed in the East right now and that this is the second time they've been on this list.

    December 15th, 2012 @ New York: 103-102 - Ah... the masked game. If you can't remember, Kyrie dropped forty-one points in this game on the road against the now 21-9 New York Knicks. They've been near perfect at home so far this year at 12-2, and we gave them a run till the final seconds of the game. Not too shabby for a rebuilding team.

    December 29th, 2012 @ Brooklyn: 103-100 - I hate to fully place the blame on one player, but Tyler Zeller is pretty much the main reason we lost this game. His inability to shut down Brook Lopez was a killer, and with Andy out, and Kyrie and Dion both having off-nights, the fact we stayed in this game was remarkable. It probably was that Elk Shyt guy that hit eight three pointers. Oh, and we were away as well, as with most of these games.



    What I'm trying to prove is that there is no need to panic. We are young and unexperienced. We've contended with some of the best teams in the league so far this year in Miami, New York, and Brooklyn, and we've beaten both squads from Los Angeles. We're not going anywhere this year, and that may be for the best, but please, step away from the ledge.

    Brighter things are on the horizon for Cavaliers basketball.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  2. bigfoot5415

    bigfoot5415 The Original HN3108

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    2,630
    Likes Received:
    1,385
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    The team consistently plays hard. Even of they suck for 3q, they will come out on fire in the 4th. Theyre still young and lack fire power. One guy plugged in at sf will go a long way. Then Gee can come in off the bench to keep the pressure on while our starters are resting.
     
  3. Man Called X

    Man Called X Not a **** was given

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2006
    Messages:
    11,900
    Likes Received:
    13,577
    Location:
    O-High-O
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    No, we're worse than our record indicates. At this point, we still only have 1 legitimate long term player on the team.
     
  4. MYoung23

    MYoung23 12 Reasons to Post

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,684
    Likes Received:
    20,852
    Location:
    Cleveland, OH
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    Close losses doesnt mean youre close to winning it means youre a bad team that loses close games. 21-61, 26-56, 31-51 the difference in those records are just cosmetic. Im worried about the roster.

    The Cavaliers need massive upgrades in talent not just time. They are dependent on who is available in the draft and the trade market. Whether those opportunities arise and they are the team to take advantage of them (they wont be the only one) is anyone's guess.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  5. AuxiliaryPie

    AuxiliaryPie Real Cavs Fan

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    2,875
    Likes Received:
    2,469
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    It seems like everyone is on board for a tanking season, but nobody wants to have the losing record. Look at our enormous cap space, lack of free agent pursuits, number of expiring contracts, stock piling of draft picks.. We are straight up tanking, using a shitty d league bench to thwart the great effort our starters give, this season and last cannot be used as evidence of us being a bad team. We ARE a bad TEAM, but our keepers are fucking keepers (KI, DW, Gee, TT, TZ, AV [though tradable])..we are only preparing to add keepers and lose the shit. If we were actually trying to win and were this bad (pistons, wizards, maybe bobcats) then we would have reason to worry.

    But we aren't them, we are the youngest team with the most picks, most cap space and the hottest young player in the league..it is only going to get better, much better.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  6. ddw

    ddw Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    Exactly. I was worried at the beginning of the year that Kyrie was going to be so good that the Cavs would be a fringe playoff team and get a mid-level pick in the draft. Now I'm happy whether they win or lose. With a loss at least they're closer to getting another top pick that'll help them long-term (although I hear that this draft is going to suck).

    The only thing I'm worried about now is that they'll make a dumb move at the deadline to give away their draft picks for some veteran that won't pan out long term.
     
  7. Damien O'Connel

    Damien O'Connel Sixth Man

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,539
    Likes Received:
    1,437
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    Fans' expectations for players in any sport on this board, and in this town, have gotten absolutely out of control. If someone doesn't play exactly how fans envision, then he sucks, he's terrible, get him out of here, he's lazy, he's an idiot blah blah blah. The negativity is really pathetic, and as a young fan, I simply don't understand it. There's a reason fans from other cities are impressed with Weeden and we aren't. They don't have this jaded perspective that has seemingly overtaken the entire Cleveland sports community.

    The fact that all that the local radio personalities talk about is how bad the Cavs are really grinds my gears too. Did they not see what happened with LeBron? Why can't they discuss why Dion is struggling, what he does well, how he can improve? Or maybe talk about Tristan's improvement . OUR TEAM STARTS 4 PLAYERS 22 YEARS OLD OR YOUNGER. What did these morons expect? But no, they just bash the team, call them good for nothing yada yada yada. I'm 19 years old and can see the direction this thing is headed, and understand that losing is part of the growing pains. Yet these paid "professionals" want to see Dion averaging 25 points a game and the team going .500 or something. 1) that's not realistic 2)That would actually hurt us in the long run. A favorite preseason phrase for Cleveland fans is "I just want them to be competitive" or "I just hope they're entertaining" That is EXACTLY what this young Cavs team is, yet they still get crucified by the media. Absolute horseshit.

    /rant

    Edit: and what do young teams do? They lose close fucking games. We aren't the Bobcats getting blown out of the building every night. We COMPETE. We have talent, otherwise these games wouldn't be close. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge the fact that losing close games is a sign of good things to come, frankly, is a pessimistic fool.
     
    • Like Like x 8
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  8. Jon

    Jon ~

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,425
    Likes Received:
    11,838
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    Our expected record is 10-22 right now, so yes, we're under-performing. We're 26th in the league on offense, and 25th in defense. This is crap and almost identical to last season. The main difference is last year our expected record was less than our actual. Our pace has actually slowed some this year, and we're now 18th in the league.

    Holding the Pacers, Bucks, and Wizards under 100 pts was good, but our last two opponents (Hawks and Nets) have both scored over 100 pts.

    The problem here is if the players get sick of the losing, and the effort drops off ... it's going to get much worse.

    I can't think of any reason why we're worse than the Pistons (right now) beyond the inexperience of our young players.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. MJA1080

    MJA1080 In the Rotation

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2008
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    967
    Location:
    Mentor
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    This was the 2OT game. Yes Batum hit the dagger 3. We played hard and just couldn't get the stop at the end. Very back and forth.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. sgm405

    sgm405 NBA Starter

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2009
    Messages:
    5,451
    Likes Received:
    4,871
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    The Cavs' terrible, terrible bench has cost many victories this season, that's for sure.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. KI4MVP

    KI4MVP formerly LJ4MVP

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,278
    Likes Received:
    9,282
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    not as bad as our record?

    We have the 29th best record.

    Hollinger, who takes the close games into account has us ranked at 25. Behind us is the 4 win team, two 7 win teams, plus Magic and Mavs.

    We've had quite a few missed games by our key players. without that we'd likely have a few more wins and be ranked a bit higher.

    Our big problem we don't quite have a full rotation of NBA talent and the "depth" behind that would have trouble making the roster on any team above .500.
     
  12. DraftPick

    DraftPick Believeland

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    1,598
    Location:
    Cleveland, OH
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    Some people are incredible. We are essentially in year 2 of our rebuild...2010-2011 was a complete waste. We went from a vet team wanting to win now, to a young team building for the future. People saying they are worried about this team, seriously? Let's look at the 2 draft we were in...

    2011 - Got the best player in the draft and a raw power forward that is starting to show promise. Right now it looks like we got 2 of the top 5 players in that draft.
    2012 - Other than Lillard (who plays the same position as our best player) Dion looks like he was the best available when we drafted...You just look at the guy and you can see that he can play. And Zeller is going to be in this league for a long long time...not a bad get for a guy that was leaving here anyway (Sessions)

    Add in the fact that we added a defensive, athletic forward that will be great coming off the bench, and have a GIANT trade piece in Andy.

    If you would have told me we would have all that after just 2 years after LeBron left we ALL would have taken that.

    We need time and some luck. And losing is what is going to happen with no vets and every key piece minus Andy being under 25.

    We all knew this was how this year was going to turn out. I don't get why people are starting to get pissed off and saying the players we have are no good. If we have this record this time next year, then yes it may be time to start worrying...But look at what we have in assets piled up, look at the cap space, we are getting a top 5 pick this year. Next year is the year we take a step forward. Then 2014 comes...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Winnersville

    Winnersville Situational Stopper

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2012
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    388
    I agree with what the OP said. We've only had a few blow-outs this whole season. There's many games this year where we could of won. We could be at a much better ranking than where we are right now. And I love it how we never give up. We fight until the end.
     
  14. Jon

    Jon ~

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,425
    Likes Received:
    11,838
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    If 2010-2011 was a complete waste then it was only because Chris Grant wasted it. We have 4 players left from that team, and likely to drop as low as 1 by the deadline.

    We're in year 3 of our rebuild.

    Not that this has anything to do with the topic of whether the team is actually better than their record - and presumably on the verge of some sort of a break out.
     
  15. Kizzle

    Kizzle In the Rotation

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Messages:
    3,047
    Likes Received:
    937
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    bright spots on our team, Kyrie, Gee, maybe Waiters, Zeller, TT, Andy.

    We have to take that and make it great.

    But we are bad as our record says. Iv never cheered for a team with so little depth and talent as this one in any sport
     
  16. Dshuks

    Dshuks Towel Waver

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    131
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates


    Wait so you have Waiters a maybe, but are entirely sure Zeller is a bright spot?
    That makes no sense Waiters has shown much more than Zeller has.
     
  17. UDcleveland

    UDcleveland Sixth Man

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    1,760
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    For additional support for the "we are not as far away as you think" theory, look no further than golden state. They built around Curry, Thompson and Lee, had 23 wins last year, but had a huge trade piece in Monta, several picks in the draft and some cap room to play with. Less than a year later they are 21-10 and that's with zero production out of bogut and Jefferson who were the net return on Monta. If we hit on the varejao trade and a key free agent or two, there's no reason why we can't be in a similar spot at this time next year, especially in the shitty conference we play in.
     
  18. rabman_gold

    rabman_gold Anti-Florida yet stuck here...

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,478
    Likes Received:
    5,020
    Location:
    Southeast Florida
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    Stark, we really shouldn't try to use simply our eyes and pretty game recaps to describe why we're than our record. If we want to do that, we need to get down and muddy with good ol' fashioned numbers.

    As of December 30th, 2012 at around 8:30 PM.

    We are the second worst team in the league with a 22% winning record. That would be 7 wins and 25 losses with 32 games total in an 82 game season. Mostly, not everyone is on even footing nor is everyone evened out with injuries and the like.

    Yet our points per game are ranked 24th with 94 and our opponent's points per game are ranked 21st with 99.4. But since our pace is 18th with 91.5 possessions per 48 minutes, our offensive and defensive ratings are 26th and 25th respectively (102 and 108). Statistically then, we're expected to win 10 games and lose 22. So we under-perform due to the garbage roster Grant handed Scott and Scott actually got them to play quite hard. In Offensive Rating, only 5 guys were better than the regular team amount (Miles is tied in amount). In Defensive Rating, only 4 are better than the amount (Gee and Zeller are tied at the amount). Offensively is Kyrie and Boobie. Defensively is only Luke Walton. The only three players who are good at both are Andy, Tristan, and Omri (who barely plays anyways and would lose his numbers from getting out on the court). 3 of those guys started more than 20 games.

    Another reason for the bad slip ups: Only 4 guys with more than 3 years of experience. Basically, we aren't even trying to win right now with what we have and we still have moved forward. It's only natural. Only 2 guys started 30+ games. 13 guys have more than 10 games played and 10+ minutes played per game (100 minutes played).

    It's a young team that's begging to become better. That's how you show a team that's not as bad as its record.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. HoytClagwell

    HoytClagwell Humbled

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    190
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    Well, that season did have the Mo Williams trade...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Free Agency God

    Free Agency God Birthing All-Stars

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    4,436
    Likes Received:
    4,772
    Location:
    Space
    Re: Not as Bad as the Record Indicates

    The 2010-2011 season was hardly a waste. It got us the 4th pick in the draft, and it also got us another year closer to getting rid of some contracts we didn't want like Jamison's. It also was a year of trade opportunities, of which we clearly took advantage, having gained Kyrie through the Baron Davis trade. That trade essentially made up for the 1980 trade with the Lakers that eventually led to the Lakers drafting James Worthy in 1982. For all intents and purposes, we gave up no assets in order to acquire Kyrie since we were unlikely to have kept Mo anyway. Huge, huge trade that will probably go down as one of the most lopsided trades (in terms of how much each team benefited from the trade in the end) along with trades like the Lakers' trade for Kobe.
     

Share This Page