Kevin Love - Miami Ground Machine

[AMC]

That's either the best or worst pick up line ever.

Feel free to use it when necessary.

 

[Sebastian]

I was thinking this about the people effectively saying that a guy scoring 30 points was somehow the issue today. Like he was disrupting the flow of the team by chucking the ball up outside the offense and taking 35 shots or something- no, he was very efficient on a team that has had extreme difficulty finding scoring with LeBron out. If our guards could shoot, it would have been a good game. His defense was not even that bad, especially compared to his teammates. He gave up a few easy buckets to Chandler and could not really affect Dirk's crazy fadeaway.(James Jones blocking one of those was the fluke of the year)

Love's effort was mostly there when it hasn't always been on that end. He'll never be a rim protector and maybe not even an average defender, but he was the least of our problems today. Our guards could not stay in front of theirs, we did a poor job defending their shooters, and they just out-executed us as a team. We have a very thinly sliced swiss cheese roster right now.

Kyrie has shown this season that he can defend at a fairly high level when healthy and focused. Today he wasn't healthy, but the ability is there, we just need it consistently.

There are some around here who were most displeased with the Wiggins/Love trade. Though the thing is done, they will never cease reminding us of the fact when Love plays poorly. When he is playing well, they'll remind us that he didn't single-handedly defeat one of the best teams in the NBA when all his teammates played like decayed ass. There is no pleasing them.

 

[LeShaq]

Nobody is saying he is a bad player but Kyrie has done much better for us than Love has.

No, actually he hasn't.

Here are the points per shot of Love and Kyrie. These numbers are through the Charlotte game.

1.34 Love
1.28 Irving

The only person on the team who is better at scoring efficiently than Love is LeBron.

Here are the true shooting figures for them both.

.566 Love
.562 Irving

Here are the offensive and defensive ratings and net rating for the two players.

114/106/+8 Love
115/109/+6 Irving

Here are the defensive box plus minus stats for the two players. A higher positive number is the goal.

-0.1 Love
-1.3 Irving

What is more troubling with this information is that it seems to be getting worse with LeBron out. Or to say it in a different way, without LeBron around Irving doesn't look as good. But Love looks better.

If people are concerned about Love's defense, then I hope they are even more concerned about Irving's defense. Kyrie's appears to be the worst among our big 3 and unlike Love, it would seem Kyrie can be pretty good on defense if he were actually putting the effort into it. Hopefully it's the knee that is limiting him with regard to that effort right now.

Love is only now settling into some kind of groove with the team. Hopefully having LeBron out will allow that to progress. When we ran the offense through Love against the Mavericks, we had success. I hope Blatt recognizes that.

 

[LeShaq]

That's what happens when you try to create a "Big 3."

Mistake from day one.

Like the "mistake" when Boston won the title with a big 3?

Like the "mistake" that let the Heat go to 4 straight Finals?

Are those the kinds of mistakes you're talking about? I'm just trying to understand your rationale here.

 

[Birdy89]

Like the "mistake" when Boston won the title with a big 3?

Like the "mistake" that let the Heat go to 4 straight Finals?

Our big 3 looks nothing like those big 3's because those big 3's weren't saddled with a pair of 1 way players.

Both those teams defended at a high level. Our team is allergic to it. It's really not even comparable.

 

[Chris]

A pair of one way players? They're all one way players right now. LeBron is playing bad defense this year.

 

[SteelSmack]

Ray Allen and Paul Pierce were pretty much 1 way players. That's why Rondo and Perkins worked so well with them. Balance.

 

[LeShaq]

Our big 3 looks nothing like those big 3's because those big 3's weren't saddled with a pair of 1 way players.

Both those teams defended at a high level. Our team is allergic to it. It's really not even comparable.

That wasn't the point. The concept was that making a big 3, of itself, was a bad decision. That's what I got out of the comment I quoted.

The Eastern Conference was represented in the finals by a 'big 3' team in 6 of the last 7 finals. And that would likely have been 7 of 7 had Boston not been injured in 2009. So the concept of a 'big 3' seems a viable one.

Now maybe people don't think our big 3 is up to par, but still the concept of a big 3 in the first place seems like a pretty good one in the current NBA.

 

[Sebastian]

Of all the Big 3s of the past years, The Cavs' are the least experienced with 2/3s having never seen the playoffs. Anyone that didn't think there would be a much larger learning curve must have been smoking that tasty crack.

Time. Patience. Yada yada.

 

[Jordan]

No, actually he hasn't.

Here are the points per shot of Love and Kyrie. These numbers are through the Charlotte game.

1.34 Love
1.28 Irving

The only person on the team who is better at scoring efficiently than Love is LeBron.

Here are the true shooting figures for them both.

.566 Love
.562 Irving

Here are the offensive and defensive ratings and net rating for the two players.

114/106/+8 Love
115/109/+6 Irving

Here are the defensive box plus minus stats for the two players. A higher positive number is the goal.

-0.1 Love
-1.3 Irving

What is more troubling with this information is that it seems to be getting worse with LeBron out. Or to say it in a different way, without LeBron around Irving doesn't look as good. But Love looks better.

If people are concerned about Love's defense, then I hope they are even more concerned about Irving's defense. Kyrie's appears to be the worst among our big 3 and unlike Love, it would seem Kyrie can be pretty good on defense if he were actually putting the effort into it. Hopefully it's the knee that is limiting him with regard to that effort right now.

Love is only now settling into some kind of groove with the team. Hopefully having LeBron out will allow that to progress. When we ran the offense through Love against the Mavericks, we had success. I hope Blatt recognizes that.

Per Basketball-Reference:
Love:
WS/48: .154
Box Plus/Minus: 1.6
Vorp: 2.6
TOV%: 10.6%
USG%: 21.8%
PER: 18.6

Irving:
WS/48: .146
BPM: 1.7
VORP: 2.7
TOV%: 10
USG: 24.4%
PER: 19.2

Kyrie has a clearly higher TOV% and PER, all while being used more frequently.

TS% is a ridiculous stat to use because Love shoots .3 more 3pt shots per game. So obviously he is going to have a higher percentage. Also, you selectively used defensive +/- because it hides the fact Kyrie actually has a better overall +/-.

Moreover, per NBAWOWY:
Love:
WARP: 2.48
ezPM: .46

Irving:
WARP: 4.09
ezPM: 2.7

Listen, the two players are close, but when viewed holistically, Irving is the more valuable player.

 

[LeShaq]

Per Basketball-Reference:
Love:
WS/48: .154
Box Plus/Minus: 1.6
Vorp: 2.6
TOV%: 10.6%
USG%: 21.8%
PER: 18.6

Irving:
WS/48: .146
BPM: 1.7
VORP: 2.7
TOV%: 10
USG: 24.4%
PER: 19.2

Kyrie has a clearly higher TOV% and PER, all while being used more frequently.

TS% is a ridiculous stat to use because Love shoots .3 more 3pt shots per game. So obviously he is going to have a higher percentage. Also, you selectively used defensive +/- because it hides the fact Kyrie actually has a better overall +/-.

Moreover, per NBAWOWY:
Love:
WARP: 2.48
ezPM: .46

Irving:
WARP: 4.09
ezPM: 2.7

Listen, the two players are close, but when viewed holistically, Irving is the more valuable player.

No, I don't think he is. But my point was to answer your statement that Kyrie had done "much better" for us. He really hasn't. The case can be made that Kyrie has been marginally better than Love so far, but definitely not "much better."

When looking at the career histories of the two players, it's clear Love has done more and shown more in his career than Kyrie has. Which is why, combined with the information from this season, I said I would take Love over Kyrie all day, any day.

If you are going to disagree with my statements, then it's probably a good idea to be able to back up your disagreement. I very, very rarely will make an argument without having information and data to support it.

Can Kyrie surpass Love as a player and for a career? Sure. But he hasn't done it yet. And until he does do it, I will take Love because Love has reached a productivity level that almost no one in the NBA can match.

I don't care about this stuff except someone mentioned Love vs Irving a few pages back in the thread and there is the issue of who should be the #2 option on the team. Other than that, I couldn't care less which guy is better than the other. I just want the team to win, but in order for the team to win guys have to know their roles and understand who can do what on the team.

This is a big problem, I think, for someone like Dion. Dion should not be looking to take the same amount of shots as someone like Love. If he's doing that, then we won't win as much as we could. Based upon how efficient each player has been up to this point in their careers.

 

[Jordan]

No, I don't think he is. But my point was to answer your statement that Kyrie had done "much better" for us. He really hasn't. The case can be made that Kyrie has been marginally better than Love so far, but definitely not "much better."

When looking at the career histories of the two players, it's clear Love has done more and shown more in his career than Kyrie has. Which is why, combined with the information from this season, I said I would take Love over Kyrie all day, any day.

If you are going to disagree with my statements, then it's probably a good idea to be able to back up your disagreement. I very, very rarely will make an argument without having information and data to support it.

Can Kyrie surpass Love as a player and for a career? Sure. But he hasn't done it yet. And until he does do it, I will take Love because Love has reached a productivity level that almost no one in the NBA can match.

I don't care about this stuff except someone mentioned Love vs Irving a few pages back in the thread and there is the issue of who should be the #2 option on the team. Other than that, I couldn't care less which guy is better than the other. I just want the team to win, but in order for the team to win guys have to know their roles and understand who can do what on the team.

This is a big problem, I think, for someone like Dion. Dion should not be looking to take the same amount of shots as someone like Love. If he's doing that, then we won't win as much as we could. Based upon how efficient each player has been up to this point in their careers.

I think we agree on more than we disagree on. I'll take your argument that Irving is not much better than Love.

My biggest issue with this argument, and other arguments about Love's career trajectory compared to Kyrie, is twofold. First, Love has been in the NBA longer than Irving. Secondly, and most importantly, Irving is better, even if marginally, than Love on this team. I could care less that throughout his career Love was better. Shaq was amazing his entire career before Phoenix. Even in Miami he was well beyond being an "average" center. In Phoenix, due to the system, he was well below average. That's why the comparisons between Irving and Love need to be from this year.

 

[LeShaq]

I think we agree on more than we disagree on. I'll take your argument that Irving is not much better than Love.

My biggest issue with this argument, and other arguments about Love's career trajectory compared to Kyrie, is twofold. First, Love has been in the NBA longer than Irving. Secondly, and most importantly, Irving is better, even if marginally, than Love on this team. I could care less that throughout his career Love was better. Shaq was amazing his entire career before Phoenix. Even in Miami he was well beyond being an "average" center. In Phoenix, due to the system, he was well below average. That's why the comparisons between Irving and Love need to be from this year.

Ok, fair enough. However, you have to know what each guy is capable of doing. Irving has been put in a great position by LeBron playing point guard. But Love has been put in poor situations by Blatt and just trying to figure out how he fits in the offense. That's why I brought up Pau Gasol and how bad he looked in LA the last few years and how good he looks now.

Shaq in Phoenix was pretty much done. But Love is just hitting his true prime.

I think we both agree that it doesn't matter which player is better. As long as the team succeeds then it doesn't matter to any of us, I think.

 

[Jordan]

Ok, fair enough. However, you have to know what each guy is capable of doing. Irving has been put in a great position by LeBron playing point guard. But Love has been put in poor situations by Blatt and just trying to figure out how he fits in the offense. That's why I brought up Pau Gasol and how bad he looked in LA the last few years and how good he looks now.

Shaq in Phoenix was pretty much done. But Love is just hitting his true prime.

I think we both agree that it doesn't matter which player is better. As long as the team succeeds then it doesn't matter to any of us, I think.

Yeah, I mean, we have three great players. And all three need to improve playing together. I think your aforementioned analysis of Dion was spot on.

I get what you are saying, and I understand wanting to use player's history, but my point is that cannot be the entire justification for an argument that player a is better than B (which is the original argument I was responding to). Moreover, I really don't think Shaq was done at that moment. Nonetheless, look at a guy like Lance Stephenson today. Great in Indiana but a team ruiner in Charlotte.

 

[Sebastian]

Think Shaq wants to suit up again? He has gotten fat enough to seal off the rim by virtue of girth. Can't be any worse than our present predicament.