Kevin Love - Miami Ground Machine

[LeShaq]

So his shooting sucks by his standards.

No, it does not. But as I said before, carry on.

 

[The Oi]

Right. I'm not saying he is not playing worse. He definitely is. But saying his shooting "sucks" or he provides no impact is just statistically wrong. I know people have an issue with stats but they are better than pure conjecture.

I have said multiple times that it sucks by Kevin Love's standards.

After doing some quick research, it's also worse than league average, so you certainly COULD say that it just sucks overall.

So you know what...I will say that, though I hadn't until my last post...

Kevin Love's shooting sucks.

It will more than likely stop sucking. And it might even get way above average. But for now, it sucks.

 

[The Oi]

No, it does not. But as I said before, carry on.

So well below last year's averages and his career averages doesn't suck.

What would suck by his standards?

25%? Is that when it's ok to say his shooting has sucked?

 

[Jordan]

I have said multiple times that it sucks by Kevin Love's standards.

After doing some quick research, it's also worse than league average, so you certainly COULD say that it just sucks overall.

So you know what...I will say that, though I hadn't until my last post...

Kevin Love's shooting sucks.

It will more than likely stop sucking. And it might even get way above average. But for now, it sucks.

All of that is fair. I happen to put more value in TS%, WARP, and PER than 3PT%, FG%, etc. Love is definitely playing worse but I don't think, as a player, he sucks. I was more responding to the poster who said Love is only empty stats and a terrible player.

 

[LeShaq]

Anyone who watches the game can see hes not impacting the game

How can people seriously write stuff like this? I just don't get it.

Let's go to some more stats. I'm running out of things to say to try to help get the point across.

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415CLE.HTM

Ok, what we want to do here with the above stats is go over Love in terms of Simple Rating (82games thing) and how he compares in particular with Kyrie.

First of all, Love is a +5.1 in terms of Simple Rating. That means he is a net positive for the team. With 0.0 being the baseline of no impact, positive is good and negative is bad. Love is 3rd on the team in this stat.

Now, let's look at Love in comparison with Kyrie as regards Production stats. This is what you see.

Irving
Production own = 20.4
Production opponent = 18.2
Net = +2.1

Love
Production own = 20.6
Production opponent = 18.0
Net = +2.6

Now, if people come into this thread and say things like "well, Love isn't as good as I thought he would be but he's doing better against his opponents than Kyrie," then I can probably take that opinion seriously. If they say "Love may not be worth the max, and Kyrie may not be worth the max either," then I can probably take that opinion seriously.

However, trying to place all the blame on Love or targeting Love without a command of the facts may be taken less seriously as an argument.

I think some people may want to brush up on their knowledge of basketball statistics and evaluation. There's a tremendous amount of data and analysis out there, but it is useless if you choose to ignore it in favor of emotion based responses.

 

[The Oi]

All of that is fair. I happen to put more value in TS%, WARP, and PER than 3PT%, FG%, etc. Love is definitely playing worse but I don't think, as a player, he sucks. I was more responding to the poster who said Love is only empty stats and a terrible player.

The thing about TS% is that it factors in Free Throws. And Free Throws are certainly useful and, prior to this year, were a huge part of Love's game. And he's excellent at shooting them, and has been this year.

He, as a player, doesn't suck. But his shooting does suck, as we agree. And his mental fortitude also appears to suck as well and that all factors into him not appearing to provide any leadership on the floor. You have to want that from a guy on the floor as often as he is and for being one of your three best players.

He's usually a superstar level player, and probably will play at a star level at some point this year. But it's tough to argue he hasn't put up empty stats thus far in his career when he hasn't won a damn thing. No argument as to the talent around him in Minny...it also sucked.

 

[Jordan]

The thing about TS% is that it factors in Free Throws. And Free Throws are certainly useful and, prior to this year, were a huge part of Love's game. And he's excellent at shooting them, and has been this year.

He, as a player, doesn't suck. But his shooting does suck, as we agree. And his mental fortitude also appears to suck as well and that all factors into him not appearing to provide any leadership on the floor. You have to want that from a guy on the floor as often as he is and for being one of your three best players.

He's usually a superstar level player, and probably will play at a star level at some point this year. But it's tough to argue he hasn't put up empty stats thus far in his career when he hasn't won a damn thing. No argument as to the talent around him...it also sucked.

I just find empty stats to be an especially useless measuring stick when we're talking about a stretch four. Love is not going to be a guy who by himself can win games. This is not due to his skill set, but rather, the position he plays. This is why myself, along with other posters here, were weary about trading for Love. Not that I don't think the guy will helpout, I actually think the opposite will become true; yet, his stats related to his position are actually good. That's important to consider.

 

[Ruggeder]

No individual player has ever won a championship in a team sport. Teams win championships. Love has won many awards and accolades as a player, however the team he was on did not, because the team wasn't good enough. I am sure his team will go to the playoffs this year, and his team will probably win at least a round of those playoffs. When people come back healthy and click, maybe even more. He still won't have won anything that only a team can win.

 

[gourimoko]

The only problem with Kevin Love is defense. If he were just a league average defender for his position, just average, he'd be an elite talent.

This was my point over the offseason when folks were saying he was an "above average" defender. It was bullshit then and is now. That's his really only major flaw. And it's such a bad flaw that at more times than we might like, Love is giving up more points to opponents than he's making resulting in him being a net negative on the floor; whether we win or lose.

 

[The Oi]

I just find empty stats to be an especially useless measuring stick when we're talking about a stretch four. Love is not going to be a guy who by himself can win games. This is not due to his skill set, but rather, the position he plays. This is why myself, along with other posters here, were weary about trading for Love. Not that I don't think the guy will helpout, I actually think the opposite will become true; yet, his stats related to his position are actually good. That's important to consider.

I get it re: the empty stats statement. He's a star level player and the Cavs were wise to nab him, as disappointing as it was that they had to give up another future star to get him. Absolutely no denying that. And he will come around, unless he gets hurt again.

But...

Larry Bird, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki and Tim Duncan were/are all guys who won a ton of games surrounded by varying levels of talent in their career at the Power Forward position. It's not impossible to be a leader and a big impact player at that position. Those guys I mentioned were/are able to produce from many of the same areas of the court that Love can. Duncan and Garnett don't shoot threes, but their range is pretty broad within two point range. And Bird and Nowitzki could/can shoot from all the same spots Duncan and Garnett can.

Love doesn't have any excuse to not be able to put the team on his back some nights and WIN. In the past he's put teams on his back and gotten blown out. Hence the empty stats statement.

 

[LeShaq]

One other thing I should have mentioned since this is the Kevin Love thread and thus we will constantly hear about Andrew Wiggins.

From that 82games site.

Kevin Love Simple Rating = +5.1
Andrew Wiggins Simple Rating = -2.8

Wiggins is an excellent talent. But he has a long, long ways to go in order to reach Love's level. He may get there one day, but my concern is that day could come too late for LeBron and a potential Cavs title window.

Timberwolves information
http://www.82games.com/1415/1415MIN.HTM

Wiggins Production own = 11.9
Wiggins Production opponent = 15.0
Wiggins net Production = -3.1

Cavs information
http://www.82games.com/1415/1415CLE.HTM

Love Production own = 20.6
Love Production opponent = 18.0
Love net Production = +2.6

Love net Production differential over Wiggins = +5.7

So if you think Love is getting beaten by his opponents (which the stats on that site say is false), think about how our team would look right now with Wiggins on it instead of Love.

 

[Jordan]

I get it re: the empty stats statement. He's a star level player and the Cavs were wise to nab him, as disappointing as it was that they had to give up another future star to get him. Absolutely no denying that. And he will come around, unless he gets hurt again.

But...

Larry Bird, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki and Tim Duncan were/are all guys who won a ton of games surrounded by varying levels of talent in their career at the Power Forward position. It's not impossible to be a leader and a big impact player at that position. Those guys I mentioned were/are able to produce from many of the same areas of the court that Love can. Duncan and Garnett don't shoot threes, but their range is pretty broad within two point range. And Bird and Nowitzki could/can shoot from all the same spots Duncan and Garnett can.

Love doesn't have any excuse to not be able to put the team on his back some nights and WIN. In the past he's put teams on his back and gotten blown out. Hence the empty stats statement.

Duncan and Garnett weren't true stretch 4s though, at least in my opinion, they were physical forwards who had outside shot capability. I will give you Bird and Nowitzki but I really don't think Love is close to either of them in terms of talent. Stretch 4s that carry teams are the exception to the rule, even in case of all star level talent.

Listen, I give you that Love does not have any excuse to not be able to put the team on his back and win. But, let's be honest, it is very rare for any stretch 4s to have that ability. I ultimately don't think Love has ever had it. He does impact the game... He is a double-double machine. But he is an off-ball player and that makes it very difficult to impact the game, hence why so few stretch 4s have/had that ability.

 

[The Oi]

Duncan and Garnett weren't true stretch 4s though, at least in my opinion, they were physical forwards who had outside shot capability. I will give you Bird and Nowitzki but I really don't think Love is close to either of them in terms of talent. Stretch 4s that carry teams are the exception to the rule, even in case of all star level talent.

Listen, I give you that Love does not have any excuse to not be able to put the team on his back and win. But, let's be honest, it is very rare for any stretch 4s to have that ability. I ultimately don't think Love has ever had it. He does impact the game... He is a double-double machine. But he is an off-ball player and that makes it very difficult to impact the game, hence why so few stretch 4s have/had that ability.

Ah. Missed the stretch part of your post.

I was referring strictly to HOF level Power Forwards with range, not necessarily stretch fours that play primarily off the ball.

Playing off the ball does make it difficult for someone to constantly have an impact on the game, yes. In reality, Love will only get better if he keeps getting the ball. Which he will.

I just wish to god this team would move the ball around and have him catch it in rhythm rather than him having to force the action or lay in Marion and Tristan's bricks.

 

[MRMsix6]

I just wish to god this team would move the ball around and have him catch it in rhythm rather than him having to force the action or lay in Marion and Tristan's bricks.

but that's such a lucrative business...

 

[theSTEREO.]

So among all the wild swings here...

Is there room for someone who can both think that Love has been a disappointment in his first two months, and also still believe that he is an elite player who will get back to that level sooner than later?


And to break that down further, understand that 50% of Love's disappointing season is his own slumpiness, and 50% the inability of his coach and teammates to help him play his game?

I've watched Kevin Love a decent amount over the last three years, and a LOT last year. This is not Kevin Love that we have been seeing. Well, we have seen that version of him in 1st quarters a decent amount. But the rest? That is not the Kevin Love of the last 5+ years, and I refuse to believe that a guy just suddenly becomes un-elite, just forgets everything about what makes him great.

And it's not like he requires some super specific set up to operate. He's had dozens of teammates, multiple coaches, has played with ball dominant wings, has played with pass first PG's, has played with bullnosed defensive centers, has played with soft defensive centers, and he has succeeded consistently. Sure some situations he is even better in (like when he has a rim protector next to him vs not), but all in all, it's not like you pull him out of Minnesota and suddenly he's worthless.

This team has a lot of problems. Chemistry, injuries, roster makeup, and time being the four main ones. The injuries are finally about to clear for now, and time fixes itself. And finally, the roster is looking more like one that makes sense. So until we can see this team operating at its proper chemistry and until Love can work through whatever is giving him the yips the last 8 weeks or so, you'll never ever find me on the "Love is a bust" wagon.