Kevin Love - Miami Ground Machine

[blommen]

I talked to an assistant trainer for the Spurs. He said Kevin Love's injury was a freak thing. Perfect angle for the arm to come out. Happens all the time with no injury. I said Kelly put his weight on it, and this and that, and he was very dismissive that it wasn't dirty and was just a bad piece of luck.

You don't have to take it as gospel, but there it is.

It was clumsy and idiotic, regardless. I haven't seen enough of Olynyk to guage wether or not he is a dirty player, but be all accounts he is clumsy as hell on the court. either way, it was a stupid thing to do and Olynyk should've realized how dangerous the situation was. you can tell by watching the play that he realized what had happened and high-tailed it out of there before anyone else would realize what happened.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Even if the Cavs win a championship this year it would be a tragedy if Love leaves. Wiggins is going to be a top 5 player in the world in 5 years. Love didn't contribute to the ring and you traded away potentially 15 years of great basketball and championship contention.

Wiggins is going to be a top five player in five years? Are Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Curry, Davis, Cousins, Griffin, and James all retiring in the next four? I don't think Wiggins will be better than Kawhi Leonard or Jimmy Butler in five years, and I doubt either of those guys will be top five players then. I don't think he'll be better than Irving either in five years, either, and Irving probably won't be top five.

 

[CommD]

You know a post can't be wrong when it uses a lot bold and caps.

Emphasis added, so that the willfully blind might actually see.

Alas...

 

[MirORich]

Emphasis added, so that the willfully blind might actually see.

Alas...

You make so many assumptions but chief among them is neglecting to consider that with a healthy Love and healthy Kyrie we'd be doing even better in the playoffs then we are now and have a better shot in the finals then we would without him/them.

Yes, the way we would play might look slightly difference but those are two huge talents. The players who have stepped up in their absence deserve a great amount of credit but a lot of what we are seeing is also just the super focus of the players that comes in the playoffs and ability to gameplan a team for a 7 game series vs. playing a team one time and then having another team come in the next night.

None of your post is surprising though as you've been one looking to knock Love at every opportunity the past 6 months.

 

[gourimoko]

Wait, what? I don't remember Kevin complaining and I don't remember him ever confessing MVP aspirations either.

I do remember him saying "I came to Cleveland because I want to win. I’ll grab a broom and sweep the floors if it gets me an NBA title," and "I would like to average a double-double. That's something that I've done throughout my career, but you have to understand that I'm not around the basket as much as I've been in the past. As long as we're winning, I'm fine," though.

Just because you don't remember doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I can post at least 3 different occurrences of Love complaining about how he was being used. That's not counting media reports that's just his own comments.

I can also refer you to a mini documentary about Kevin that was posted by me in this thread pre trade. In it he says that he feels he could win MVP someday. Why wouldn't he think that putting up over 26 and 12.

Disregarding everything else you said I'm a bit astounded you aren't aware of this.

 

[ShumpShump]

He's not leaving. Don't listen to that bullshit from the fat LeBron-stalker.

 

[CommD]

You make so many assumptions but chief among them is neglecting to consider that with a healthy Love and healthy Kyrie we'd be doing even better in the playoffs then we are now and have a better shot in the finals then we would without him/them.

Yes, the way we would play might look slightly difference but those are two huge talents. The players who have stepped up in their absence deserve a great amount of credit but a lot of what we are seeing is also just the super focus of the players that comes in the playoffs and ability to gameplan a team for a 7 game series vs. playing a team one time and then having another team come in the next night.

None of your post is surprising though as you've been one looking to knock Love at every opportunity the past 6 months.

I have consistently pointed out, both before and after the trade that acquired Love, that acquiring and or keeping Kevin Love will not determine the Cavs' ultimate fate. There are other paths to success and we are witnessing that now.

I do not believe the team should condemn itself to perpetual luxury-tax hell in order to sign Love to a mult-year max contract. These other paths should be considered by the team, regardless of fan infatuation. "Big Three" is an appealing slogan and concept, but management should do what is best for the mid-to-long-term success of the team.

The guy has had a bad back all year and now serious shoulder injury and these other guys I mentioned are truly getting the job done. Their efforts (and the related defensive focus of the team), and Love's less than ideal production and uncertain health, should not be short-changed when making the upcoming personnel decisions that will shape the franchise for the next five years.

Add a healthy Kyrie Irving to the production of Shump, Thompson, Mozgov, Dellavedova and Smith, as well as other potential additions, and I don't think its crazy to determine that Kevin Love on a long-term max contract is a luxury, that while attractive, the Cavs can ultimately not afford.

 

[MirORich]

It is only luxury tax hell if the team owner dictates to subtract other players to get out of the luxury tax. If he is willing to push forward with no regard for paying the tax, it has zero effect on us as fans and actually provides us with better opportunities to continue to add players and salary then if we we're below the tax line or trying to utilize a S&T to add a player.

With Dan Gilbert understanding the concepts of spending money to make money and with the luxury tax line raising by huge amounts over the next few years, there is nothing to suggest that a max long term deal for Love(as well as possibly trading to Haywood contract for another 10 million a year player) is a luxury we can't afford.

 

[Chris]

I have consistently pointed out, both before and after the trade that acquired Love, that acquiring and or keeping Kevin Love will not determine the Cavs' ultimate fate. There are other paths to success and we are witnessing that now.

I do not believe the team should condemn itself to perpetual luxury-tax hell in order to sign Love to a mult-year max contract. These other paths should be considered by the team, regardless of fan infatuation. "Big Three" is an appealing slogan and concept, but management should do what is best for the mid-to-long-term success of the team.

The guy has had a bad back all year and now serious shoulder injury and these other guys I mentioned are truly getting the job done. Their efforts (and the related defensive focus of the team), and Love's less than ideal production and uncertain health, should not be short-changed when making the upcoming personnel decisions that will shape the franchise for the next five years.

Add a healthy Kyrie Irving to the production of Shump, Thompson, Mozgov, Dellavedova and Smith, as well as other potential additions, and I don't think its crazy to determine that Kevin Love on a long-term max contract is a luxury, that while attractive, the Cavs can ultimately not afford.

Cite Love's injury problems...and then in the next breath act like you're counting on a healthy Kyrie moving forward. A guy who has been hurt like every year since college. So I can't agree. Might be nice to fantasize about "other options" but at the end of the day you have a star player already in your hands and ready to go. All he needs to do is sign on the dotted line. So, we say "Thanks, but no thanks" and then what? Count on finding guys who are better? Of course not, because that would make no sense- the odds of that are slim to none and they would command money that you just said you don't want to invest. So, add more role players to fill the void? Why? What's the point? So you have flexibility to add even more role players down the line?

I know it's odd for a Cleveland team to have the players it needs to win a championship, be ready to go, and now just have to go out and do it...but that is the situation we have here in Cleveland over the next 5 years as long as this team stays together. No use trying to complicate it and outsmart yourself.

 

[MirORich]

These deep playoff runs are what allows Gilbert to push ahead and fork out the luxury tax.

Not only does he make a lot of money each home playoff game, but all these watch parties that get 15,000+ in the door for the road games. Those people are buying beer, buying food, and going to the team shop to buy gear. They're also downtown, so it has to at least increase the chance that some of them stop by the casino before or afterwards. Gilbert is a business person who has always spent money to further invest in his companies. He doesn't hoard his money and he's not as frugal as some sports owners. He will push our salary as high as it needs to go for the FO/staff/and LeBron to feel like they've been given their best chance to compete for a title each year and for the fanbase to be energized to feeling the same way.

 

[CommD]

A couple more things...

Irving is already signed to an extension which has not even kicked in yet! We are going to have to put up with him missing some time, but he has not had the type of serious injuries ala say, a Derrick Rose, etc. (knock on wood). The guy was third team All-NBA and could easily be second team next year. I think he may have to reconsider international play, though. He has clearly established himself as second fiddle to James; Love is third in the hierarchy.

I also think folks are underestimating what is going to cost to keep James if the CBA is reopened.

Why is the concept of sacrifice totally absent in relation to Love? If we represent the best-chance-to-win option to to him, vs. thee max money to loose, is it impossible he might choose to leave some on the table in exchange for the potential championship experience?

Why do folks want to believe everything Love says about wanting to stay, but ignore that he said he plans to opt-in? If he does so, he will gain a lot of favor in my eyes because it's obviously the thing to do. As I've said before, I would even offer him a one year max deal with a no-trade clause if he is worried about being shipped out at the trade deadline (a real concern if I were the GM, LOL). Then he can prove himself for health and fit on the court next year, and reasses at that time.

 

[Lee]

Wonder if people know that half the NBA lives in Los Angeles during the offseason...

Not true, half live here in Phoenix, but still a valid point. NBA players don't typically live year round where they play.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Not often taken into account by Love super-fans: the situation has changed since the trade was made.....

What has changed is that we are no longer able to sign a max player in free agency, as we were last summer. That ship has sailed. As you pointed out, Kyrie's extension hadn't yet kicked in -- that's how we were able to afford Love's contract. But it will be kicked in for next season, which means that even if we don't sign Love, we won't have the ability to add a free agent to replace him. That is the biggest thing that has changed since last off-season.

Love's true value to us right now isn't Kevin Love specifically -- it is the ability to resign a max-quality (or close to it player). If we refuse to give him what he's asking, and he walks, that asset disappears, and cannot be replaced.

All these players should be re-signed by Cleveland and THEY WILL NOT COME CHEAP. These are salary obligations that were not in play when the season started.

But what is unknown/unknowable by any of us is how much DG is willing to spend. If we knew he had a definite cap in mind, and that he will not spend the money to sign Love and keep all those other guys, then we'd have something to debate. But we don't know that.

This is why the OPT-IN or ONE-YEAR extension is the best strategy for all concerned at this time.

Whether or not that is true for the Cavs is sort of irrelevant. What matters is what kind of contract Love wants -- short or long term. Because whatever he wants, if we don't offer it, he's very likely gone. Personally, if I was his agent, I'd tell him he's better off getting the longer-term deal. But either way, it's really not our choice. So the core question is: if he demands a max long-term deal, do we pay it, or tell him to walk?

If its me, I'm looking to trade to sign-and-trade Love this offseason for the Lakers #2 pick and filler, but that's irrelevant now.

Wet-dreams of Laker Nation aside, I can't fathom why Love would want to go to a train-wreck of a franchise that has to give up it's only real asset -- the No.2 overall -- to get him. That's also the problem with trading him for other high-picks -- the teams that have those picks generally aren't contenders, and he wants to go to a contender.

The key point is that if you are truly a Cavs fan, and not just a Love fan, IMO you should not be willy-nilly clamoring for a multi-year max for Kevin Love without looking at the other salary requirements the team has to consider along with the opportunity costs of adding a third max contract,

Exactly what is the opportunity cost of giving up Bird rights on a max player, for a team that is going to be over the salary cap no matter what? Exactly what do we gain by passing on Love if he demands a long-term deal?

I don't think anyone would be philosophically opposed to a sign and trade deal that would bring us someone like LMA. But my guess is that such opportunities are very unlikely. If he demands a max deal and we refuse, he may just sign somewhere else and leave us with bupkis.

 

[cavsfever]

QTip nails it. Unless someone spontaneously offers us a really attractive sign and trade, we need to go with Love. Assuming that Gilbert is willing to spend to keep this team together (which I think he will be) resigning Love is far superior to any other option we have as a capped-out team.

I think it will be some years before we know whether the Love-Wiggins trade was a good one using 20-20 hindsight. I am one who believes you had to make it given what you knew at the time. But looking at how we have made the Finals basically without Love and looking at how Wiggins has developed makes things more complicated. That trade will provide fodder for barroom (and message board!) arguments for years to come. But in the real world, as things actually stand, we have already made our committment to Love and should absolutely follow though with it.

 

[CardiacCavs]

The state of our salary cap going forward is only an issue if we are unable to win with the team we have. That is not a problem here. We've proven, even with severe injury issues, that we can compete for a title with our current group of players. You re-sign every rotational player we have here for whatever price they want because the only problem re-signing our own players presents falls squarely on Dan Gilbert's wallet. He has PROVEN that he will not penny pinch.

We are in a really good spot right now.