Kevin Love - Miami Ground Machine

[CommD]

Salary cap will exceed $100M in 2 years.

We'll be fine.

The biggest concern isn't Love's contract, it's Tristan's.

Love is/will/should/can get a max from anywhere; so, he's worth the max.

But if I have to choose between Thompson and Love, I am going with the best offensive rebounder in the NBA who was drafted by my team, and is represented by James's organization.

But obviously, that's just me.

 

[DougHeil]

Dan will pay TT and Love. They bring different aspects to the game. Each is needed and each will be paid. Moz, Andy, TT, Love. Those are 4 bigs any team would be happy to have.

 

[bushwick_bill]

Love has also been working out at the facilities recently. He is not going anywhere. This team is so beat up and about to sweep in the ECF, he would be crazy to leave.

 

[BimboColesHair]

But if I have to choose between Thompson and Love, I am going with the best offensive rebounder in the NBA who was drafted by my team, and is represented by James's organization.

But obviously, that's just me.

The fact that this was rated as funny by a poster named DR CRAZY is a fitting enough description for the stance you are taking on this matter.

 

[DougHeil]

Including playoffs, 98-0 is a possibility next year.

 

[gourimoko]

But if I have to choose between Thompson and Love, I am going with the best offensive rebounder in the NBA who was drafted by my team, and is represented by James's organization.

But obviously, that's just me.

Come on bro...

Like, I'm trying to understand your position, but when you say you'd take Thompson over Love - simply for his rebounding - when Love is the better rebounder overall, it makes that difficult to do.

 

[cavsfever]

Come on bro...

Like, I'm trying to understand your position, but when you say you'd take Thompson over Love - simply for his rebounding - when Love is the better rebounder overall, it makes that difficult to do.

I think TT is a better rebounder than Love. Not only does he *look* like a better rebounder, but this year at least he had a higher total rebound percentage and collects slightly more total rebounds per 36. (E.g. this year TT had a 17.2% total rebound percentage for TT vs. 16.6% for Love).

Then we get to offensive rebounding, where TT simply wipes the floor with Love. He has more than twice the per-36 offensive rebound and offensive rebound percentages than Love does. Tellingly, TT also has much higher o-rebound numbers with Cleveland this year than Love did in his last few years with Minnesota. (Curiously Love seemed to be a good offensive rebounder in his rookie year but has fallen off statistically since then).

Love vacuums up easier defensive rebounds, and I think the offensive boards that TT specializes in are more valuable. Plus, TT is more durable than Love.

Obviously Love is a much better scorer than TT though.

 

[gourimoko]

I think TT is a better rebounder than Love. Not only does he *look* like a better rebounder, but this year at least he had a higher total rebound percentage and collects slightly more total rebounds per 36. (E.g. this year TT had a 17.2% total rebound percentage for TT vs. 16.6% for Love).

Then we get to offensive rebounding, where TT simply wipes the floor with Love. He has more than twice the per-36 offensive rebound and offensive rebound percentages than Love does. Tellingly, TT also has much higher o-rebound numbers with Cleveland this year than Love did in his last few years with Minnesota. (Curiously Love seemed to be a good offensive rebounder in his rookie year but has fallen off statistically since then).

Love vacuums up easier defensive rebounds, and I think the offensive boards that TT specializes in are more valuable. Plus, TT is more durable than Love.

Obviously Love is a much better scorer than TT though.

I think you're doing Kevin Love a disservice a bit with the comparison.

I think generally speaking it's pretty well established that Love was playing in an unfamiliar system, through injuries, and with erratic minutes. He was often out of position, not knowing where to go or what to do, and was visibly and vocally upset about it.

I don't think using this previous season really demonstrates that Tristan is a better rebounder than Kevin Love, who could be argued as one of the best (Top 2?) rebounders in the league, historically.

I also think saying he grabs easier rebounds is also kind of unfair. He grabs so many rebounds while on the floor that it's hard to say all of them are "easy." I think an argument can be made that Love gives up opponent eFG% in order to rebound at such a high rate, but that's another argument.

Simply put, Tristan, while a great offensive rebounder, hasn't proved that he's a better rebounder than Kevin Love.

 

[Otsego Mar]

Has Tristan ever made a 60 foot outlet pass for an assist?

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

I think TT is a better rebounder than Love. Not only does he *look* like a better rebounder, but this year at least he had a higher total rebound percentage and collects slightly more total rebounds per 36. (E.g. this year TT had a 17.2% total rebound percentage for TT vs. 16.6% for Love).

Then we get to offensive rebounding, where TT simply wipes the floor with Love. He has more than twice the per-36 offensive rebound and offensive rebound percentages than Love does. Tellingly, TT also has much higher o-rebound numbers with Cleveland this year than Love did in his last few years with Minnesota. (Curiously Love seemed to be a good offensive rebounder in his rookie year but has fallen off statistically since then).

Love vacuums up easier defensive rebounds, and I think the offensive boards that TT specializes in are more valuable. Plus, TT is more durable than Love.

Obviously Love is a much better scorer than TT though.

Put Tristan outside the 3 point arc on most of the offensive sets and see how many offensive rebounds he gets. He does a great job on the offensive glass, but he is helped in part because his man fails to account for him as an offensive threat so on misses he has more freedom to get the ball. Love could get a lot more offensive boards if that was the goal but do that and you gut a big chunk of his skills.

 

[CommD]

Come on bro...

Like, I'm trying to understand your position, but when you say you'd take Thompson over Love - simply for his rebounding - when Love is the better rebounder overall, it makes that difficult to do.

I have tried to explain my position on this matter. It is what it is, and folks are going to disagree and that's OK. I do not want to eliminate all flexibility for the team going forward by taking on the third max contract.

Of course, Love is the better overall player, but a team is the sum of its parts. The Cavs have sufficient 3-pt shooting and scoring, with or without Love, and his defensive rebounding (his greatest value in my opinion) is a skill that can be replaced at much lower cost. His playmaking ability is a skill that may never be used to its full capability by this team lead by ball-dominant Lebron James and Kyrie Irving.

I value defense in construction of potential championship teams. It is the defense that has made the difference in making this team a contender. When I see the Cavs retain Thompson, Shumpert, and Mozgov (or superior players) after they have signed Love to the max, then I will be satisfied. Not before.

Signing Love to the max and losing the skills brought by the above players will be a massive failure IMO, especially due to the contract afforded to a player we should never have traded what we did for himin the first place unless he was under a long-term contract.

As Cavs' fans continue to believe there is no way Love would leave of his own accord, nearly every national media source says the exact opposite. The butthurt if this guy walks is going to be epic. For the fans sake, I truly hope that does not happen, and for my sake, I hope we get the opt-in.

Soon, we will see.

 

[gourimoko]

I have tried to explain my position on this matter. It is what it is, and folks are going to disagree and that's OK. I do not want to eliminate all flexibility for the team going forward by taking on the third max contract.

Of course, Love is the better overall player, but a team is the sum of its parts. The Cavs have sufficient 3-pt shooting and scoring, with or without Love, and his defensive rebounding (his greatest value in my opinion) is a skill that can be replaced at much lower cost. His playmaking ability is a skill that may never be used to its full capability by this team lead by ball-dominant Lebron James and Kyrie Irving.

I value defense in construction of potential championship teams. It is the defense that has made the difference in making this team a contender. When I see the Cavs retain Thompson, Shumpert, and Mozgov (or superior players) after they have signed Love to the max, then I will be satisfied. Not before.

Signing Love to the max and losing the skills brought by the above players will be a massive failure IMO, especially due to the contract afforded to a player we should never have traded what we did for himin the first place unless he was under a long-term contract.

As Cavs' fans continue to believe there is no way Love would leave of his own accord, nearly every national media source says the exact opposite. The butthurt if this guy walks is going to be epic. For the fans sake, I truly hope that does not happen, and for my sake, I hope we get the opt-in.

Soon, we will see.

I don't get the salary cap argument though.

With the cap going over $100m it negates these concerns about max contracts for guys like Love, Irving and James who are all Top 10-15 players IMHO.

I think stacking talent like this is the Heat model which led them to so much success.

Let's take Love off the team, and go back to a Cavs team with Wiggins. Even then, my argument would be to trade (not Wiggins) for a max or near-max player.

So again, wherever you fall on the Love/Wiggins debate, adding another max player when you can afford to do so is a no-brainer.
I guess I just don't really understand the counterargument?

 

[red.]

My heart still burns with hate for Kelly O. Stupid bastard fucked us over.

Love will be back better and stronger than ever.

 

[Jscc]

I think TT is a better rebounder than Love. Not only does he *look* like a better rebounder, but this year at least he had a higher total rebound percentage and collects slightly more total rebounds per 36. (E.g. this year TT had a 17.2% total rebound percentage for TT vs. 16.6% for Love).

So I guess you're just going to toss out the rest of Kevin Love's career? Kevin has a higher career rebounding percentage [20.1 > 16.7], higher defensive rebounding percentage [29.2 > 20.5], and a negligibly lower offensive rebounding percentage [11.3 < 13.2] than TT.

 

[CommD]

I don't get the salary cap argument though.

With the cap going over $100m it negates these concerns about max contracts for guys like Love, Irving and James who are all Top 10-15 players IMHO.

I think stacking talent like this is the Heat model which led them to so much success.

Let's take Love off the team, and go back to a Cavs team with Wiggins. Even then, my argument would be to trade (not Wiggins) for a max or near-max player.

So again, wherever you fall on the Love/Wiggins debate, adding another max player when you can afford to do so is a no-brainer.
I guess I just don't really understand the counterargument?

The Heat did not give out max contracts. The players sacrificed to form the team they desired.

The Heat model was ultimately defeated by a better structured and more effective team (with ZERO max contracts), leading to the destruction of the team through the loss of LeBron James.

I simply do not believe that three max contracts are required to win. I chose three-point shooting, perimeter defense, and defense at the rim, to surround elite scorers and playmakers James and Irving.

But we will see where this goes as RFA's Shumpert and Thompson hit the market, Smith declines his player option, Delly needs re-signed, and Mozgov's agent demands $15M the following year in his first chance for a real contract. If all are re-signed (or adequately replaced, I am good with the Love max.

I should also note that another factor which makes Love expendable is the successful replacement of skills Wiggins would have brought to the table through the acquisition of Smith and Shumpert. These team components MUST be retained.

Still hoping for the opt-in….