Kyrie Irving

[Ohio]

Congrats Jon, you have single handedly derailed the Kyrie Irving thread. You suck.

 

[SalvadoranCavsfan]

We are back in the playoffs for the first time in years and people are at each other's throat for no reason. Hopefully Kyrie will kick so much ass over the next few months that there will be no doubt where he ranks among the best players in the NBA.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Let's see what's going on in the Kyrie Irving thread...

 

[Jon]

Lilliard, Kyrie, Westbrook, and Derrick Rose don't play the point guard position at all, traditionally. If you're going to discount Kyrie as a point guard, then you're going to have to do the same.

I don't have a problem with including every player in the league in the discussion, but clearly, some players are better at running a team, running an offense, and making the guys around them better than than others. When we say "point guard" it seems like we're interested in those things which are unique about a "point guard" ... otherwise why not just say "guard" ? or "scorer" ? or "wing" ? or "perimeter player" ?

If we remove all context from the words we use, we might as well not use them.

 

[gourimoko]

So, would you include him in your list of top PGs? Or SGs? Or Combo-guards? All the above?

I somewhat made this distinction in my previous post, and I've written a lot about the modern day positions in the NBA, but I'll try to answer your question as directly as possible.

Kyrie, Wade, Lillard, Harden, Steph, and guys like them are combo guards. They aren't traditional point guards, nor are they traditional shooting guards.

Traditionally shooting guards don't initiate the offense of a team, and they aren't one of the primary ball-handlers in an offense. Plays, traditionally would run through the point and post before landing in the hands of a shooting guard.

But in the perimeter-oriented modern era of the NBA, that's changed drastically.

Guys like Allen Iverson can't be classified as either a point guard or a shooting guard because he plays both positions and plays them both well (as you yourself stated about Tim Duncan). So Allen Iverson is a "combo-guard."

Kobe on the other hand is not, he's a shooting guard, because historically, he tended not to create for others; likely by choice, because he's demonstrated the ability to do so.

Joe Johnson, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson - these are examples of wing players who traditionally play the off-guard role on their teams because of their skillset.

So, not to divert from the point. Kyrie is a point guard because that's the position he plays on the starting roster for the Cleveland Cavaliers. It isn't to say he couldn't play shooting guard, and he often effectively has.

So for comparative reasons, I think it makes no sense to compare Kyrie to someone like Joe Johnson who would only be effective (as would the entire team) if there was a point player on the floor. This is true more for some than others.

James Harden isn't the best person to play point given their roster. There are other, better defenders and facilitators than Harden at that position already on their roster; so playing him at the 1 is only really advantageous if (1) the opposing team is post-oriented and not perimeter oriented, and (2) you're trying to go big.

Since both of these conditions are rarely met in competitive play, Harden is mostly going to be played at the 2 - or SG position, even though yes he is a combo guard and capable of playing the point.

With that said, to answer your questions:

So, would you include him (Harden) in your list of top PGs?

No. He plays shooting guard for the Rockets. But I would include him on a list of all guards or combo guards.

Or SGs?

Yes, that's his starting position, and since the NBA still uses the positional system it makes sense to categorize him this way for comparative purposes. But, there is a limit to how far this label really applies to him. He's really not a traditional shooting guard, by any stretch of the imagination.

Or Combo-guards?

Yes. This is the most accurate description of James Harden.

All the above?

No. Harden plays the off-guard role for the Rockets, and even though he's a combo-guard, that doesn't qualify him as playing the point guard position for his team. Someone else is generally taking up minutes in that role for reasons likely pertaining to facilitation and defense.

If however Harden were moved to the point by the Rockets, because say they acquired Jimmy Butler and wanted to play him at the 2, then yes, I'd put him on the list of point guards and combo guards and remove him from the list of shooting guards.

Personally, I'd just call him a ball dominant SG and leave it at that.

I think a lot is missed in this description, but that's your prerogative.

Personally, I don't really care about a 4 year old comment you made about Kyrie - worse things have been said about the kid in that time, that's for damn sure.

But I think in an effort to defend that stance you might be missing something special in Kyrie. This guy has MVP potential and I'm not sure if you're seeing that.

 

[godfather]

Not sure where this Rich Man Boobie comment came from, since Boobie literally did virtually nothing similar to Kyrie at all. He was a guard that could barely dribble.

I don't really view Kyrie as a point guard, and I don't really care. I don't view majority of the so called top point guards Westbrook, Lilliard, and Rose as point guards either. They're combo guards, that's not an official position, but that's what they are. That's not good, or bad, it's just the players they are.

Michael Jordan was a scorer, did he not make players better? There are different ways to make players better on the floor, without having to literally pass the ball. Good players make others better by default. The defense obviously is going to play someone like Kyrie differently when he's on the floor, which gives opportunities to others.

If we're going to list the best guys that play at that position, regardless of how they play it, then Kyrie is at the top of the list, no questions asked.

Wall plays the position more like a traditional point, does that make him better? Hell no, because he's not a better player than Kyrie.

I think scorers still make more of an impact than passers in this league. Being a good passer, and relying on others to do the majority of the scoring only gets you so far.

There's a good reason why heavily dominated passing point guards, that are the best player on their team rarely wins a championship in this league. Magic was an exception, he was a pretty underrated scorer too, loaded with offensive talent around him.

Chris Paul has yet to even make it to the conference finals, that tells you everything you need to know on how much an impact passing first lead point guards make. Not as much as you'd think.

 

[CosmoKramer]

I agree it's not much of a question, but that doesn't explain why you haven't answered it.

Would you consider a rich man's Boobie Gibson to be a top-5 PG in the league?

Of course not, but Kyrie Irving is not a rich man's Boobie Gibson. He's so much better it's not even close. It was a ridiculous comparison then, and it's only grown more preposterous as Kyrie has grown into one of the best 15 players in the entire league all at the ripe age of 23.

Let me start from the beginning and try to explain why I think it's a bad comp.

Boobie Gibson was a fringe-NBA player at his peak that brought one above-average skill to the table; outside shooting. The only way he could score efficiently was by running around screens like a shooting guard - he had absolutely no off-the-bounce juice, couldn't hit pullup jumpers, and couldn't play through contact well enough to earn trips to the line. That already sounds nothing like Kyrie, but I'll continue.

The rest of Boobie's floor game; passing, ball handling, positional defense, transitional defense, rebounding - were way below-average for an NBA point guard. Because of that even a Bill Gates' version of Boobie would still have major holes in his game; he'd be a potent outside threat, but being league-average in all other aspects would put him outside the league's ten best point guards.

There's another All-Star point guard that recently played for the Cavs I think of when I hear "rich man's Boobie Gibson," ---- Mo Williams. Think about it, let that one stew for a minute.

Mo was much more reliant on his outside shot to score points like Boobie was (unlike Kyrie), yet Mo had a more diverse offensive game. He could attack out of the PnR for midrange pullups like a traditional point, and could also dart in the lane for layups if given a big enough crease.

Mo ran into problems trying to create when facing elite teams, I don't think anyone needs reminded of his no-show the last time we played Boston in the playoffs. The Celts broke out the CYO tactic of doubling LeBron as soon he passed halfcourt, leaving Mo unable to convert the countless 3-on-2s they willingly let him have.

And that's where Kyrie comes in, and also the part of his game that puts the "rich man's Boobie Gibson" to shame. Kyrie is already among the best guards at finishing among the trees in the league, and the combination of elite handles, shooting 60% in the restricted area, and shooting over 40% from deep makes him damn near impossible to guard. You can't say that about a "rich man's Boobie Gibson," the only other point guards from my lifetime that combine the total package of skills Kyrie has already shown at 23 are Steve Nash, Steph Curry, and CP3.

Look at that group again, because that's exactly what Kyrie is right now: a franchise point guard.

 

[Jon]

I think a lot is missed in this description, but that's your prerogative.

Personally, I don't really care about a 4 year old comment you made about Kyrie - worse things have been said about the kid in that time, that's for damn sure.

But I think in an effort to defend that stance you might be missing something special in Kyrie. This guy has MVP potential and I'm not sure if you're seeing that.

I think ball dominant SG explains Harden pretty well, but like you said ... prerogative. Probably explains why I disagree with a number of your examples, but we don't need to get bogged down in that.

I have no problem going back 4 years. I only take issue with people who try to tell me what I meant and pretend the context of how Kyrie was playing 4 years ago has no meaning.

I also have no problem seeing the value Kyrie brings to the team in his dual role as our starting-SG and our backup-PG.

PG isn't a position, it's a set of skills. If you don't believe that, then you can disregard the following, but Kyrie played SG in highschool. When did he have a chance to learn how to play PG? Can you list some skills that Kyrie has clearly learned and mastered?

I think he's doing a nice job with the Alley Oops this season ... and he's seeing the guys in front of him pretty well on his drives. What else?

 

[Jon]

Of course not, *snip*

Cool. You agree with what I said 4 years ago.

We also seem to agree that a player who shoots really well but doesn't bring a lot else to the table is not very special.

So... do you happen to remember what Kyrie was doing well (and not doing so well) 4 years ago early in his rookie season?

 

[CosmoKramer]

Cool. *snip*

Great.

 

[DionGetsBuckets]

Should've kept Dion. Better threads.

 

[gourimoko]

I think ball dominant SG explains Harden pretty well, but like you said ... prerogative. Probably explains why I disagree with a number of your examples, but we don't need to get bogged down in that.

Fair enough.

I have no problem going back 4 years. I only take issue with people who try to tell me what I meant and pretend the context of how Kyrie was playing 4 years ago has no meaning.

But Kyrie's rookie year was one of the best in the history of the NBA... I think this context is most accurate.

I also have no problem seeing the value Kyrie brings to the team in his dual role as our starting-SG and our backup-PG.

Huh??

PG isn't a position, it's a set of skills. If you don't believe that, then you can disregard the following, but Kyrie played SG in highschool. When did he have a chance to learn how to play PG? Can you list some skills that Kyrie has clearly learned and mastered?

Mastered? At 23 years old?

I think Kyrie has mastered isolation, dribbling and ball-handling which are point guard and perimeter skills.

I think he's becoming a better facilitator, but he's right about league average (actually slightly higher) in that respect, statistically. He's done quite well at drive and kick and the 1-4/5 PnR which are again point guard skills. I think he has room to improve, but he's again better than average among point guards.

But again, Kyrie's game encompasses the entirety of point guard skills, so I'm not sure why you'd move him to the 2 considering that's the position he's least able to defend.

I think he's doing a nice job with the Alley Oops this season ... and he's seeing the guys in front of him pretty well on his drives. What else?

Are you being serious right now?

 

[TitleTown]

Should've kept Dion. Better threads.

Only because of dumb people trying to prove he was good.

 

[DatDudeZ3]

I'm so glad I stuck up for Kyrie in here the way I did last spring/summer when everyone was bashing the kid. This thread was loaded with idiots, people saying trade him, saying Waiters is the better player (Yes, people actually gave the idea of building around Waiters instead), saying Kyrie doesn't deserve max money and saying he wasn't a winner. People asked why I was backing up Kyrie so hard, this is why...

This kid has turned into a superstar at the age of 23 and is the perfect complement to LBJ now as he ages. Oh, and he's still going to get better and understand the game better. Ky can carry the load when need be, any day, any time. I've always had confidence in Kyrie turning into a superstar, this kids talent is something rarely seen and his defense has improved with his effort. It's hard to look good when you're playing with jackass teammates and a dysfunctional (at the time) organization. Kyrie loves Cleveland, he's always said that and he shows it, he seems like a relatively clean and nice kid. We couldn't have better faces for this franchise than LeBron, Kyrie and K Love, all good dudes. Once Kyrie learns the game a bit more and gets this playoff experience, I expect him to become a progressively better passer and average 8 assists a game in his prime and he will be an MVP candidate. Right now he is being primed by LeBron James, the best player in the world, can't wait to see the monster LeBron created when LeBron sort of hands the reigns to Kyrie as LBJ gets older. That is why I stuck up for Kyrie last spring/summer while everyone else was bashing him.

 

[gourimoko]

I'm so glad I stuck up for Kyrie in here the way I did last spring/summer when everyone was bashing the kid. This thread was loaded with idiots, people saying trade him, saying Waiters is the better player (Yes, people actually gave the idea of building around Waiters instead), saying Kyrie doesn't deserve max money and saying he wasn't a winner. People asked why I was backing up Kyrie so hard, this is why...

This kid has turned into a superstar at the age of 23 and is the perfect complement to LBJ now as he ages. Oh, and he's still going to get better and understand the game better. Ky can carry the load when need be, any day, any time. I've always had confidence in Kyrie turning into a superstar, this kids talent is something rarely seen and his defense has improved with his effort. It's hard to look good when you're playing with jackass teammates and a dysfunctional (at the time) organization. Kyrie loves Cleveland, he's always said that and he shows it, he seems like a relatively clean and nice kid. We couldn't have better faces for this franchise than LeBron, Kyrie and K Love, all good dudes. Once Kyrie learns the game a bit more and gets this playoff experience, I expect him to become a progressively better passer and average 8 assists a game in his prime and he will be an MVP candidate. Right now he is being primed by LeBron James, the best player in the world, can't wait to see the monster LeBron created when LeBron sort of hands the reigns to Kyrie as LBJ gets older. That is why I stuck up for Kyrie last spring/summer while everyone else was bashing him.

I remember when a few of us took a lot of shit from some posters for supporting Kyrie, especially during the whole Bynum fiasco.