Looking for a new laptop

[gourimoko]

@gourimoko what are your thoughts on the Surface Laptop?

Well, I think the Surface line is awesome, particularly the Surface Pro...

I think the Surface Laptop is an interesting device, but I think people get confused by how Microsoft markets them. Most people think the Surface Laptop and Surface Pro (tablet) are the same, or that the Laptop is just a Pro with a fixed keyboard -- and that's not true, they're actually quite different.

Some advantages of the Laptop vs the Pro(tablet) are that it's keyboard is simply much better to type on.. There's no comparison. Secondly, it's a more rugged device, built solidly and feels like it could be dropped without shattering... Lastly, it has substantially better battery life since it's screen takes far less power to drive.

CPU performance-wise, these systems use the same processors, PCIe storage, same RAM, same GPU, same everything on the mobo; so there's no performance differences there..

So, the biggest issue that has mostly been resolved with the Surface Laptop pre-2018 is that it comes with Windows 10 S; which, is (was) criminal IMHO. Windows 10 S is basically a walled-garden, locked down version of Windows 10 Pro. You can (could) only run applications from the Windows Store -- which is insane. So you absolutely must upgrade to Windows 10 Pro to get a fully-functional laptop... Microsoft is now offering the upgrade for free, thankfully - so this is no longer an issue.

Since you can get Windows 10 Pro for free now, I'll set that aside and focus on the other points of difference..

For one, the display... The Surface Laptop has a beautiful, bright display with excellent color reproduction.. But while you might not notice it in the harshness of a retail store with all those bright ass lights, the Laptop has significantly lower resolution and pixel response than the Pro tablet... Which raises the question: why??

Why did Microsoft use two different displays for the Surface Laptop and Surface Pro? It makes no sense... The only answer is that the Laptop's display was so much cheaper in production that using it on a different SKU outweighed the cost benefits of scaling up production/sales of the Pro display.

To break down the difference,s the Surface Pro has the equivalent of a 5Mpx display at 267.47 PPI over 12.3"; whereas the Surface Laptop has ~3.4Mpx at ~200 PPI .. I'm using Mpx as the unit of measure because these devices are different aspect ratios.

In flat resolution terms, the numbers are deceptive because it looks like only an aspect ratio and size difference, but this isn't the case. The Laptop has significantly lower resolution regardless of the 1" size difference and aspect ratio difference. What compounds the difference is that the tablet is significantly brighter on the same settings; with 398 nits vs 361 nits... Both are sRGB compliant, but the tablet, again, has better color reproduction than the laptop -- which, when you think about it, makes no fucking sense...

Moreover, if you plan to use the pen; the tablet (Pro) is more responsive, with more pixel definition (for pen resolution) than the Laptop; so if you plan on doing art work, the Pro is the way to go.

I'm also not sure why they removed the Surface Pro's microSD card slot from the Surface Laptop? For photography work, this means you need to carry a USB SD card reader... You can also use the SD card as an archival disk, and given that neither system is upgradeable in the slightest, having an SD card slot is great since you can pop in another 128-256GB with a fast SD card .. It won't be as fast as PCIe, obviously, but you'll get similar speeds as an old SATA II HDD if not better depending on the card. So if you're running low on space, you can move static content to a $110 256GB Samsung EVO+ SD card.. Stuff like music, movies, photos, zip/rars, etc, can just be moved to very fast (90MB/s) removable storage... That's an awesome feature, so why take it away?

So with all that being said... it really boils down to this:

Laptop) If you will be typing a LOT on your Surface, and I mean a LOT.. and you do not really need the pen for art or anything requiring the finest precision, and you do not care about it's tablet features and plan to use it AS a laptop -- and you also don't care to use it as an eBook reader (a heavy one admittedly), then the Laptop is better.

1) It has way better battery life (like 30%+ battery life);
2) It has a more traditional aspect ratio so gaming and movie watching is better;
3) It has the larger display, 13.5" is standard in ultrabooks;
4) It has the vastly superior keyboard;
5) It is more rugged and more durable;
6) You do not need an additional keyboard attachment;
7) It's much more useful in your lap than the Surface Tablet without a case.
8) It's definitely better for gaming than the tablet given design.

Tablet) If you don't plan on typing a lot, or don't really mind using the keyboard attachment; if you DO plan on using the pen for art, design, precision-work; if you DO think you need the best color reproduction for photoshop or design work; if you will use the device most often WITHOUT the keyboard attached; if you DO want expandable storage; or if the $200 difference matters to you, then the tablet is better.

1) It has a way better display;
2) It has the better aspect ratio for a tablet, for reading, and for art/design, IMHO;
3) It is significantly lighter;
4) You can remove the keyboard (I like this feature);
5) The pen is FAR more usable, responsive, and operates with a higher resolution;
6) Without the keyboard it's more compact (the kickstand is very small)
7) You don't need to worry about Windows 10 licensing changes in the future...
8) It's $200 cheaper than the Laptop....

I think both are dope, but I would definitely go with the Tablet for my personal use-case since I already have 3 other laptops... If I didn't have a laptop though ... I might consider the Surface Laptop, although, it is expensive.

 

[MediumBaller]

Well, I think the Surface line is awesome, particularly the Surface Pro...

I think the Surface Laptop is an interesting device, but I think people get confused by how Microsoft markets them. Most people think the Surface Laptop and Surface Pro (tablet) are the same, or that the Laptop is just a Pro with a fixed keyboard -- and that's not true, they're actually quite different.

Some advantages of the Laptop vs the Pro(tablet) are that it's keyboard is simply much better to type on.. There's no comparison. Secondly, it's a more rugged device, built solidly and feels like it could be dropped without shattering... Lastly, it has substantially better battery life since it's screen takes far less power to drive.

CPU performance-wise, these systems use the same processors, PCIe storage, same RAM, same GPU, same everything on the mobo; so there's no performance differences there..

So, the biggest issue that has mostly been resolved with the Surface Laptop pre-2018 is that it comes with Windows 10 S; which, is (was) criminal IMHO. Windows 10 S is basically a walled-garden, locked down version of Windows 10 Pro. You can (could) only run applications from the Windows Store -- which is insane. So you absolutely must upgrade to Windows 10 Pro to get a fully-functional laptop... Microsoft is now offering the upgrade for free, thankfully - so this is no longer an issue.

Since you can get Windows 10 Pro for free now, I'll set that aside and focus on the other points of difference..

For one, the display... The Surface Laptop has a beautiful, bright display with excellent color reproduction.. But while you might not notice it in the harshness of a retail store with all those bright ass lights, the Laptop has significantly lower resolution and pixel response than the Pro tablet... Which raises the question: why??

Why did Microsoft use two different displays for the Surface Laptop and Surface Pro? It makes no sense... The only answer is that the Laptop's display was so much cheaper in production that using it on a different SKU outweighed the cost benefits of scaling up production/sales of the Pro display.

To break down the difference,s the Surface Pro has the equivalent of a 5Mpx display at 267.47 PPI over 12.3"; whereas the Surface Laptop has ~3.4Mpx at ~200 PPI .. I'm using Mpx as the unit of measure because these devices are different aspect ratios.

In flat resolution terms, the numbers are deceptive because it looks like only an aspect ratio and size difference, but this isn't the case. The Laptop has significantly lower resolution regardless of the 1" size difference and aspect ratio difference. What compounds the difference is that the tablet is significantly brighter on the same settings; with 398 nits vs 361 nits... Both are sRGB compliant, but the tablet, again, has better color reproduction than the laptop -- which, when you think about it, makes no fucking sense...

Moreover, if you plan to use the pen; the tablet (Pro) is more responsive, with more pixel definition (for pen resolution) than the Laptop; so if you plan on doing art work, the Pro is the way to go.

I'm also not sure why they removed the Surface Pro's microSD card slot from the Surface Laptop? For photography work, this means you need to carry a USB SD card reader... You can also use the SD card as an archival disk, and given that neither system is upgradeable in the slightest, having an SD card slot is great since you can pop in another 128-256GB with a fast SD card .. It won't be as fast as PCIe, obviously, but you'll get similar speeds as an old SATA II HDD if not better depending on the card. So if you're running low on space, you can move static content to a $110 256GB Samsung EVO+ SD card.. Stuff like music, movies, photos, zip/rars, etc, can just be moved to very fast (90MB/s) removable storage... That's an awesome feature, so why take it away?

So with all that being said... it really boils down to this:

Laptop) If you will be typing a LOT on your Surface, and I mean a LOT.. and you do not really need the pen for art or anything requiring the finest precision, and you do not care about it's tablet features and plan to use it AS a laptop -- and you also don't care to use it as an eBook reader (a heavy one admittedly), then the Laptop is better.

1) It has way better battery life (like 30%+ battery life);
2) It has a more traditional aspect ratio so gaming and movie watching is better;
3) It has the larger display, 13.5" is standard in ultrabooks;
4) It has the vastly superior keyboard;
5) It is more rugged and more durable;
6) You do not need an additional keyboard attachment;
7) It's much more useful in your lap than the Surface Tablet without a case.
8) It's definitely better for gaming than the tablet given design.

Tablet) If you don't plan on typing a lot, or don't really mind using the keyboard attachment; if you DO plan on using the pen for art, design, precision-work; if you DO think you need the best color reproduction for photoshop or design work; if you will use the device most often WITHOUT the keyboard attached; if you DO want expandable storage; or if the $200 difference matters to you, then the tablet is better.

1) It has a way better display;
2) It has the better aspect ratio for a tablet, for reading, and for art/design, IMHO;
3) It is significantly lighter;
4) You can remove the keyboard (I like this feature);
5) The pen is FAR more usable, responsive, and operates with a higher resolution;
6) Without the keyboard it's more compact (the kickstand is very small)
7) You don't need to worry about Windows 10 licensing changes in the future...
8) It's $200 cheaper than the Laptop....

I think both are dope, but I would definitely go with the Tablet for my personal use-case since I already have 3 other laptops... If I didn't have a laptop though ... I might consider the Surface Laptop, although, it is expensive.

Not to hijack @BMAN's thread, but I'm also looking for a new laptop for school. My parents are buying it for me as a bday present, so cost isn't much of a factor in my decision.

I know I want something from the Surface line. I have the Surface Pro 3 currently and it's great. I love using it as a tablet. The only drawback for me is that it's tough to type on in my lap. I haven't considered the new Surface Pro much because I'll be doing a lot of typing in school. I'm leaning towards the Surface Book 2, primarily because I can use it as a tablet while still having a good keyboard, but I wasn't sure if it has any drawbacks that would make the Surface Laptop a better choice.

 

[gourimoko]

Not to hijack @BMAN's thread, but I'm also looking for a new laptop for school. My parents are buying it for me as a bday present, so cost isn't much of a factor in my decision.

Lol.. asshole..

I know I want something from the Surface line. I have the Surface Pro 3 currently and it's great. I love using it as a tablet. The only drawback for me is that it's tough to type on in my lap. I haven't considered the new Surface Pro much because I'll be doing a lot of typing in school. I'm leaning towards the Surface Book 2, primarily because I can use it as a tablet while still having a good keyboard, but I wasn't sure if it has any drawbacks that would make the Surface Laptop a better choice.

If you already have a Surface Pro 3, then just sell the Pro 3 and buy a refurb/open-box Pro 2017 or a used Surface Pro 4 as a replacement on your own buck.. I do this often with my own hardware (sell the old one, replace it with a used version of the newer model)...

But I wouldn't recommend buying a Surface Pro / Surface Book if you already have a Surface Pro 3 .. there's too much overlap. An upgraded open-box Surface Pro 2017 can be had for $720 from Best Buy... And the Surface Pro 3 is being sold on eBay at prices ranging from $350 to $450 ... So it makes sense to sell yours and buy the upgrade yourself.

So on that note, for a gift, if I were you, I would get a non-Surface product... And if cost is not a factor, and you want a laptop; and you want to remain within the Windows ecosystem; the Dell XPS 13 and XPS 15 are fantastic...

Get the XPS 13 if you want something as light as possible. But I think the latest edition of the XPS 15 is more versatile and the XPS 15 256GB model comes with a GTX 1050 if you plan on gaming (it's more than adequate). It also has a massively upgraded battery as well.

It really depends on you, but it's hard to recommend a Surface Book at say $1,349 when you can get an XPS 13 with equivalent specs for $849, and a superior XPS 15 for the same price.

 

[MediumBaller]

Lol.. asshole..

I'm trying to keep the price pretty reasonable, of course, I just meant that it's not going to be the determining factor. I figure if I pick one that's too expensive they'll just tell me to pick something else, lol. My dad works in IT so he'd know if I was tryna get them to buy something that was way more expensive than what I need

If you already have a Surface Pro 3, then just sell the Pro 3 and buy a refurb/open-box Pro 2017 or a used Surface Pro 4 as a replacement on your own buck.. I do this often with my own hardware (sell the old one, replace it with a used version of the newer model)...

But I wouldn't recommend buying a Surface Pro / Surface Book if you already have a Surface Pro 3 .. there's too much overlap. An upgraded open-box Surface Pro 2017 can be had for $720 from Best Buy... And the Surface Pro 3 is being sold on eBay at prices ranging from $350 to $450 ... So it makes sense to sell yours and buy the upgrade yourself.

So on that note, for a gift, if I were you, I would get a non-Surface product... And if cost is not a factor, and you want a laptop; and you want to remain within the Windows ecosystem; the Dell XPS 13 and XPS 15 are fantastic...

Get the XPS 13 if you want something as light as possible. But I think the latest edition of the XPS 15 is more versatile and the XPS 15 256GB model comes with a GTX 1050 if you plan on gaming (it's more than adequate). It also has a massively upgraded battery as well.

It really depends on you, but it's hard to recommend a Surface Book at say $1,349 when you can get an XPS 13 with equivalent specs for $849, and a superior XPS 15 for the same price.

I hadn't thought about selling the Surface Pro 3 and buying an open box newer version. The Pro 3 I'm using is my dad's old one, so I was just going to give it back to him when I got a new laptop. I haven't really checked out any non-Surface computers, so I'll look into the Dell XPS ones you mentioned.

 

[Mr. Orange]

Computer science is a broad topic... You've got to think about what you'll be doing as an end/goal to such a degree.. If that's web development, you will find many web developers switched to Mac OS X from Windows because it natively supports a Unix environment (because it is Unix). So there's no need for messy abstraction layers of virtualization to get Unix-compatible code working on Mac OS X -- it will work out of the box.

For research and data analysis, I'd probably stick with a PC... But you can run MATLAB, Mathematica, R, etc all on the Mac natively; and Python is much easier to use in *nix than Windows, IMHO.

Believe me when I say, I'm not an Apple-guy.. I do not like their business model, and closed/walled-garden approach. I dislike the App Store, and I dislike needing an Apple ID for anything... But Mac OS X is simply a more powerful and more robust operating system than Windows for most tasks. I will say Windows is more versatile, more customizable, more configurable to do whatever you want it to do; but, if that's the goal, then Linux is right there too.

Also, there's Mac build quality... It's second to none.. Those machines are just built to last, unlike so many other cheap, plastic laptops where individual parts were cost reduced to cut lifespan while shaving a few cents on each piece... That adds up over time, causing most laptops to feel like shit after a few years. But not a MacBook...

There is DEFINITELY a learning curve coming from Windows though... but again, it depends on your use-case..

If you were to tell me that you'll be doing a lot of .NET / Windows Desktop development, I would obviously tell you to get a Windows machine. If you said you were doing mobile or web development though, I would say a Mac is probably preferred, IMHO. Windows is best, IMHO, for Windows development; but most other things, I think the Mac works either equally as well, if not better.

And to give you an idea; I came up with DOS 3.3.. I've been a Microsoft user since 1989, and I've used pretty much every major OS there is... It's still surprising to me writing this out, but yeah, OS X is worth the trouble...

With all that being said though, if you're looking to spend $1k on a Surface Pro, you could very likely get a great Windows laptop or a used MacBook Pro, so you've got options for sure..

For real....I cheaped out on $500-600 PCs for years, and within in 3 years they always crashed or ran so slow I needed a new one. 5 years ago I ponied up for a MacBook Pro (Though in hindsight the Air would have been best) and this thing is like new 5 years later. I bet I can keep it another five.

Though it kinda sucks for R as Mac does not have all the packages Windows has. Not sure about Python.

 

[Coyote850]

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/hp-ome...hing-and-carbon-fiber/5902586.p?skuId=5902586

Got me this one when my desktop fried its motherboard. I like it. Can play any game ya throw at it.

 

[Deezus]

Could go another 6... the MacBook Pro, IMHO, is the best laptop in the world. Since they're so reliable, you can buy a used one that's at least in the Haswell generation, and you're not far off from the latest machines, performance-wise (within 10% on most workloads).

Dude... I still have a frankenstein Powerbook G4 17" running Lubuntu...Fucker is 13 years old and still solid for fucking around in my garage! Have owned 4 MacBooks over the years along with 2 Powerbooks. Currently running with a 2015 15" MacBook Pro I7 2.2 for work, but will be eligible for a refresh to the brand new MacBook Pro in Sept.

 

[Zog]

XPS 13. Have the 9360 model and it’s pretty great.

Have a Latitude 7480 for work. Pretty good as well but the XPS is better.

 

[gourimoko]

XPS 13. Have the 9360 model and it’s pretty great.

Have a Latitude 7480 for work. Pretty good as well but the XPS is better.

I need to learn such brevity as you, Zog...

 

[gourimoko]

Dude... I still have a frankenstein Powerbook G4 17" running Lubuntu...Fucker is 13 years old and still solid for fucking around in my garage! Have owned 4 MacBooks over the years along with 2 Powerbooks. Currently running with a 2015 15" MacBook Pro I7 2.2 for work, but will be eligible for a refresh to the brand new MacBook Pro in Sept.

Love Lubuntu... It was one of my gotos before switching to Debian and then saying fuck it and just using Arch...

What's crazy is that your G4 might outlast Apple's stint with Intel chips! They're moving back to their own custom branded chips in their laptop and even desktop lineups (ARM, almost assuredly)!

And yeah, the MacBook IMHO, is simply the best... Fucker is a champ.. I remember arguing with @KI4MVP on the Mac/PC issue, but, yeah, I'm converted... He was right, these fucking things are beasts .. writing on my MacBook right now.. lol!

 

[el_capitan]

@gourimoko where are you getting a 2014 MacBook Pro for $500? I was looking around online but all the prices on craigslist and eBay are in the $7-800 range.

 

[gourimoko]

@gourimoko where are you getting a 2014 MacBook Pro for $500? I was looking around online but all the prices on craigslist and eBay are in the $7-800 range.

Literally just bought one as a gift two months ago on Craigslist for $500, 2014 MacBook Pro Retina 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD, in the retail case... I'm in Los Angeles (Pasadena), FWIW... But there were quite a few in that price range at the time. The fucking thing was so well kept, it felt like it was new.

 

[el_capitan]

Literally just bought one as a gift two months ago on Craigslist for $500, 2014 MacBook Pro Retina 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD, in the retail case... I'm in Los Angeles (Pasadena), FWIW... But there were quite a few in that price range at the time. The fucking thing was so well kept, it felt like it was new.

Damn, I need to look into that. I love my 2012 one and it's still going strong, but if I can flip this and upgrade to a retina display for only a few hundred bucks extra, I may have to think about it.

 

[gourimoko]

Damn, I need to look into that. I love my 2012 one and it's still going strong, but if I can flip this and upgrade to a retina display for only a few hundred bucks extra, I may have to think about it.

Definitely.. Keep in mind the 2013 was the first year they introduced the Retina display... AFAIK, there is no functional difference between the 2013 w/Retina and 2014 w/Retina; they are both Haswell, both 2133Mhz DD4, both come with PCIe SSD in their upgraded versions.. So if you see a 2013, just check the base specs (model number will tell you if Retina), and the upgrade specs (RAM, PCIe SSD)...

 

[gourimoko]

Damn, I need to look into that. I love my 2012 one and it's still going strong, but if I can flip this and upgrade to a retina display for only a few hundred bucks extra, I may have to think about it.

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/sys/d/macbook-pro-13retina/6552275985.html

Guy is asking for $600; but there's so many sellers out there, it's hard to ask a firm price -- sure you could probably get this for $550 or less. My only gripe is the 128 GB SSD... Think his price is a little high considering..