Love/Wiggins Trade Revisited

[cavsfever]

Plus in terms of value: Mozgov came for 2 firsts while we ended up with two quality SG's for essentially a salary dump which seems to vindicate the thought that getting 3 and D guys to fit Lebron and Kyrie is easier then getting bigs.

I think this is a good point. If you're thinking about Wiggins value to us *this year*, I think basically he would have been as valuable as JR Smith. Now JR Smith is actually a very valuable player to this team (so Wiggins could have made a real contribution), but we did manage to get JR for almost nothing partway through the season.

Of course Wiggins ceiling 2-3 years out is much higher than JR Smith, who is going to be declining significantly within a few years while Wiggins probably improves a lot. So that is certainly a loss. But I think this is our year -- we really have to jump on the opportunity this year.

I was/am a Love skeptic, he is just not playing up to the level I expected. But I'm feeling better recently. His defensive intensity is much improved and over last six weeks or so he is shooting substantially better on 3s (he is finally hitting over 40%, which he should be given how many WIDE FUCKING OPEN 3s he gets with us). Still looks physically outmatched in the post (which Bosh never did) and doesn't look like a superstar, but I guess you can't have everything.

I do wonder if we could have traded Dion/Bennet/TT for Love.

 

[Taiter]

I was not in favor of the Love-Wiggins trade, but occasionally I've seen a few people inanely compare it to the Harper - Ferry trade where the talent disparity was tremendous. A better, although still imperfect, comparison was trading Kevin Johnson (and, alas, Mark West) for Larry Nance. In Johnson the Suns got a much younger player who quickly became an all-star, alhtough as it turned out he only played a few years more than Nance due to injury. Nance was obviously a key player on those Cavs teams. It was a controversial deal at the time.

I've been a Cavs fan for 38 years so if they get one championship the Love trade is worth it as far as I'm concerned. I just thought Wiggins would extend the window to get a title, particularly if Kyrie can develop into that Isiah-style alpha that I think he can by the time he hits his prime in a few years. I like Wiggins' versatility and athleticism defensively. I'm impressed with Love's game (passing, rebounding, good shot selection, team player, etc) but have been waiting for him to commit himself to defense and take more 2s instead of camping out at the arc (he also could dispense with some of the moping). We're seeing strides in these areas of late. In fact, I'm hopeful that we're at the start of seeing the things Love needs to do to transform himself and his formidable skills from "all-star" to "champion." I think he's on the right team to help push him to that place.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I think Gour's point, which he and other members persuaded me of this summer, is Wiggin's potential is above "All star Maybe?". For example, that would fit the Demar Derozen criteria. Wiggins has the potential to be a top-5 superstar. So, I don't really find his viewpoints that contradictory. If Kyrie and Wiggins are both superstars, which I think is likely, even if LBJ is a borderline all-star we still can compete for a championship. The overall point, here, is that it is way too early to evaluate the success of this trade.

Not all of us agree on that, though. I don't think Wiggins has top five potential. His court vision, passing, and handles are all too limited for that, in my opinion. Maybe he addresses some of those issues, but I still don't see top five as his ceiling. Top twenty? Sure. Maybe even top ten. But I don't think he'll ever be "best guy on a title team" good, and that's what a top five guy is.

 

[Futuredome]

100000 reason why the Love trade was stupid. You are only going to have first and second options. Then there is everybody else. If he thought Kyrie was going to settle for not being the 2nd option, He was nuts. Griffin was nuts. Wiggins would have provided much better value with his all around game while eventually rising up the ranks to becoming the 1st or 2nd option. Bigs scoring is not important to this team except when Kyrie is going through one of his slumps after a Kypage and you still will not be a 1st/2nd option.

 

[LeShaq]

I don't think Wiggins has top five potential.

Yeah, I agree. I'm not seeing that in Wiggins. At least not yet.

Here's how Wiggins compares in PER with some other members of his rookie class.

McGary ---- 18.2
Mirotic ----- 17.7
Stokes ----- 16.2
Nurkic ------ 15.6
Vonleh ----- 15.0
Clarkson --- 14.9
Powell ------ 14.9 (Traded to Bos in Bogans deal)
Parker ----- 14.7
Warren ---- 14.4
Noel ------- 14.3
Payton ---- 13.4
Jefferson -- 13.2
Wiggins ---- 13.1
Gordon ----- 12.1
Smart ------ 11.3
Adams ----- 10.6
McDaniels -- 10.6
Wilcox ------ 10.4
Grant ------- 10.2
Hood ------- 10.1
Napier ------ 09.4
Brown ------ 09.0
Young ------ 08.6
Anderson --- 08.3
Harris ------- 06.4 (Joe Harris)


Wiggins looks good here but definitely not like a cant miss guy.

A good comparison with Wiggins right now, as a rookie, is Jordan Clarkson of the Lakers.


Clarkson Per 36 -- 16/5/4 -- 14.9 PER ---- 21.9% Usage

Wiggins Per 36 --- 16/5/2 -- 13.1 PER ---- 21.8% Usage

The biggest difference between the two players is that Wiggins plays about 14 more minutes per game.

Is anyone saying that Clarkson is a cant miss guy? I don't think that is the case.

Wiggins has talent. But there's a long way to go between talent and consistent productivity.

Incidentally, this is what Kevin Love looked like as a rookie.

Love Per 36 ------ 16/13/2 -- 18.3 PER ---- 21.6% Usage

Those figures would put Love at the top of Wiggins' draft class, in terms of PER.

 

[Dylan Windler's Mom]

So Wiggins went from being called the next Corey Brewer and Gerald Green before the start of the season to people now questioning if he can someday be a top 5 player in the league? Wow he's made a hell of a leap!

 

[Jack Brickman]

By the way, the situation in Oklahoma is exactly why you go all in on a title shot when you have the chance. Look at what happened to OKC. They were a candidate to become a dynasty; the best team in the league for the next five to ten years. Three years later, they're about to miss the playoffs and their best player may never be the same due to serious foot issues (and can leave in free agency in a year if he does heal up).

When you've got the chance to win a title or two, you put the chips on the fucking table and go for it, because you never know what could happen in two or three years.

 

[Henry Tuttle]

I still have no idea why this thread is here.

 

[Jscc]

100000 reason why the Love trade was stupid. You are only going to have first and second options. Then there is everybody else. If he thought Kyrie was going to settle for not being the 2nd option, He was nuts. Griffin was nuts. Wiggins would have provided much better value with his all around game while eventually rising up the ranks to becoming the 1st or 2nd option. Bigs scoring is not important to this team except when Kyrie is going through one of his slumps after a Kypage and you still will not be a 1st/2nd option.

What all around game? Kevin Love was a better rookie than Andrew Wiggins is. He had a higher PER, TS%, win shares, ORtg and DRtg in ten less minutes and coming off the bench.

 

[randymoss1881]

So Wiggins went from being called the next Corey Brewer and Gerald Green before the start of the season to people now questioning if he can someday be a top 5 player in the league? Wow he's made a hell of a leap!

Thing about that is people decided he'd be Brewer/Green after 8 summer league games. Fucking summer league games.

 

[Randolphkeys]

For all the crap the 76ers take for openly tanking the season and trading away anyone who will stand in the way of their tank, the Timberwolves have a worse record. Wiggins is putting up decent stats, but they are the definition of empty stats until he begins getting wins.

 

[randymoss1881]

For all the crap the 76ers take for openly tanking the season and trading away anyone who will stand in the way of their tank, the Timberwolves have a worse record. Wiggins is putting up decent stats, but they are the definition of empty stats until he begins getting wins.

You're better than that

 

[Randolphkeys]

You're better than that

I'm better than this topic, that's why I've left it alone for 2 months. He is a talented kid but he is a few years away from being a 2-3 option on a meaningful team, Love is doing it right now.

 

[randymoss1881]

I'm better than this topic, that's why I've left it alone for 2 months. He is a talented kid but he is a few years away from being a 2-3 option on a meaningful team, Love is doing it right now.

Looks like you made your mind up on his season a long time go and calling it empty stats backs that.

 

[gourimoko]

I'm better than this topic, that's why I've left it alone for 2 months. He is a talented kid but he is a few years away from being a 2-3 option on a meaningful team, Love is doing it right now.

Wiggins is a rookie on a bad team, surely you didn't honestly expect them to win in his first season after losing Kevin Love and effectively entering a rebuild (through the draft no less)?

But with that said, is team performance a true measure of individual potential for a rookie?

The Cavaliers were .318 in Kyrie's first season. Both the Cavs and the Timberwolves were/are tanking their seasons. Personally, I didn't think people should judge Kyrie's potential on the Cavaliers record anymore than I think people should judge Andrew Wiggins.

So as I see it, a team's present-day performance isn't really a function of his individual potential as an NBA player.

Also, the "empty stats" line is odd, especially how you coupled it with Wiggins and decoupled it from Love (or maybe you're saying Love was an empty stats player as well?).

Considering Love's stats completely deflated, and the hope of him being the Cavalier's second option has long since faded, I don't think it proves the point you're asserting here that somehow "Love is doing it right now." He's on our team, and he's contributing, but no more or less than you state Wiggins would do, as a "a 2-3 option on a meaningful team."

Or maybe that is your point? That the two players are generally equivalent, so it's an even trade -- but that we needed the more developed of the two rather than waiting for Wiggins to develop into what would essentially be a Kevin Love-level performer?