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Minimum Wage Increase: Support or Oppose ?

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Do you support the attempt to increase the minimum wage to 15$ ?


  • Total voters
    53
  • Poll closed .
Sure they do. You need a majority to bring in a union, so having "more people" express an interest still doesn't mean you're going to win a single election, although of course unions do win about half of the elections. And, as I said before, the industries that historically had the highest level of union support, with the strongest, most powerful unions, also just happen to be the industries that have gone in the toilet.. Some might say that there's even a relationship between powerful unions and industries dying, and that unions killing off the higher-paying manufacturing jobs is one reason for increasing gaps in wealth....



But....that's all true though, isn't it? So "union busting" is telling employees the truth about unions?

All the stuff you posted about union salts is likewise not only perfectly legal, but unobjectional morally as well. The language you bolded all shows companies directing hiring managers not to ask about union affiliation, to hire the most qualified applicants (horrors!), and to make sure applicants fill out their employment histories fully and completely. Even if such policies have the effect of excluding salts (who typically have shitty employment histories), what the hell is wrong with hiring the most qualified people?

I guess it's somewhat amusing that unions object to companies directing hiring managers to hire the most qualified applicants, though.
i posted mulitple sections of that document it correlates with the rest of the document and it wasnt intended to be "damning"

you want to blame manufacturing leaving because of unions?

thats completely ignorning foreign policy as well as legal tools provided to companies to get rid of unions or just fire employees allright shut down and reopen under a new name same ownership within a year.

its happens in the mining industry all the time.

Unions have been fighting for labor rights in this country since the 1800;s dont act like they just showed up and ruined everything.

looks at the hostess company.. it spurchased unions and kept them fractured and functioned for years under agreements of a hundred different unions and who knows how many of those labor agreements their own people slipped in so the companies could make them look ridiculous.

or how bout these companies preferring to spend more money on consulting firms to break unions than what it would of cost to meet their asking price.

Thats a whole other topic though and the current way the unions are set up doesnt necessarily have to be way in the future..

employee representation either by trade or company is part of the solution going forward in some aspect.

there was a brief time when companies thwarted unions with better pay or benefits.
 
people are in no way smart enough to recognize fair market value or figuring out how much they actually need to make or able enough to do this in general.
And that's my problem because why?
 
your too busy arguing the headline to pay attention to the story.

discussions evolve.. your audience is well aware of exactly what im advocating so your mocking exaggerations most likely arent having the effect you desire.
I'm not kidding though, let's burst this inflation bubble.

as far as the retail employee organizations campaigning for 15. its an effective one for bringing attention to the case and in anegotiation you always start out asking for more than your expecting to get.

the legislature federal and state ar looking at the 10 to 11 range which wont cause the apocolypse your ranting about
Then if people have an idea what they're worth why do we need a federally mandated minimum wage? Don't accept the job if you don't like the wages and hold out for the one that pays you what you feel is fair.
 
t
i posted mulitple sections of that document it correlates with the rest of the document and it wasnt intended to be "damning"

you want to blame manufacturing leaving because of unions?

Solely? No, of course not. But I do think unions played a large role in making some industries much less competitive than they'd otherwise be. I know facilities where unskilled janitors made over $20/hour, plus full benefits. Insane. But that cost structure ended up affecting their prices, orders fell, then employment fell. Rinse, repeat.

or how bout these companies preferring to spend more money on consulting firms to break unions than what it would of cost to meet their asking price.

It's incredibly rare to hire a consulting firm to "break" a pre-existing union. You may hire one to convince employees not to vote for one in the first place. OF course, since the union employs full-time union employees to help get their message out, it seems only fair. And I've never seen anything close to the cost of a consultant being greater than the increased costs due to unionization. And, many times, the biggest cost to employers is not the compensation demands, but additional restrictions on work rules and discipline that, over time, make it much more difficult to operate efficiently.

there was a brief time when companies thwarted unions with better pay or benefits.

Can't do that. If a company gets a whiff of unionization and starts offering better wages/benefits etc., that's an unfair labor practice. In fact, what kind of sucks is that union organizing campaigns sometimes drag on for such a long time that the company can't offer increases they'd have offered otherwise, which pisses off the workers. Nor is a company allowed to listen to worker complaints and address them if there is a hint of unionization. And you can't even make promises of better wages or working conditions without violating labor laws.

To some extent, the labor laws themselves force companies to limit campaigns to "unions suck."
 
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im with Roosevelt if a company can only remain sustainable by paying their workers less than what it takes to live.. they should cease to exist

Business models shouldnt include the expectation of the us taxpayer to feed their employees

and if farmers and truck drivers are relying on mnium wage to sell their product then thats where the problem needs to be addressed not on a mandated inflation tied minimum wage.

labor is an asset not a liability. you shouldnt rely on what corporate America teaches you. this is exactly why the top 3 ercent earn as much as 85% of the working population.
These farmers and truck drivers should cease to exist by your own admission then no? They can't pay these guys more than min wage then let them fail.

subsidizing some peoples lives just isn't in the evolutionary deck of cards.
 
And that's my problem because why?

not only because its just the right thing to do for idiots, but also because youll then compete against people who will work for pennies. I do this right now in a 1099 position and saw my earnings drop drastically.

Youre in sales if I remember correctly, right? What if your company goes to 2$ an hour and pays 20$ cmmission on a sale that would have netted you 100$ previously and you made your 12$ an hour? without setting a minimum, people with less financial obligations or need for high wages or that are coming from different industries or socioeconomic cultures or have less experience, and may have roommates or a significant other to help with their financial burdens will set a new fair market value for wages paid to employees and you will be shit out of luck and fuming mad, and looking for a new career. And your problem is now your problem, while companies drop their bottom line and increase profits exponentially over night.

I worked at a call center and made 50k literally while sleeping at work and drinking and getting high and the entire sales force was outsourced to manilla who would perform at a lower rate, but they cost the amount they would normally pay out in 2.5% of their daily commissions to the entire building of sales people to split.

This pattern is already recognized via outsourcing and independent contracting and would only make the barrier to entry for both principles of payment lower and more common.
 
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These farmers and truck drivers should cease to exist by your own admission then no? They can't pay these guys more than min wage then let them fail.

subsidizing some peoples lives just isn't in the evolutionary deck of cards.
I have yet to find a truck driver who makes minimum wage .
farmhands make 11.00 an hour on average.


got anything else?
 
There is a huge shortage for truck drivers(cdl) and they make a lot more then minimum wage.

I agree there should be a minimum wage as there are enough immoral/corrupt people that would take adavantage of the young and adults.

IMO some of the people who support it, only see the positives and think of it in a bubble. But wages are just one piece of the economy from a Macro standpoint. You can throw out a lot of history because we are in a Global economy. It is hard to predict what raising min wage would do, and raising it to almost 15 would IMO have some negative consequences.
 
Tornicade is literally owning this thread.. Props.

Lots of FUD in the thread from the misinformed, glad to see someone making the obvious and most rational case for a stronger middle class.
 
I have yet to find a truck driver who makes minimum wage .
farmhands make 11.00 an hour on average.


got anything else?
Sure, you are completely overlooking the fact that people who are making $13 or $14 an hour are in danger of losing their jobs to less skilled workers at the new min wage whether it is $10 or $11 an hour or whatever. These slightly more skilled employees are now replaceable by their lesser skilled and cheaper competition. There are winners and losers in raising the min wage, in a vacuum raising min wage sounds great but that isn't going to change the way people do business.
 
I am still in a mild state of shock that so many professional economists apparently doubt that demand curves slope downward. I admit upfront that I have not spent more than an hour or so looking through the latest literature reviews on the topic. Nonetheless, I remain unrepentant: I think increasing the price of unskilled labor by 24% will make employers hire fewer labor hours. The burden of proof is on the doubters to show why this isn’t so.

In addition to the compelling logic of “demand curves slope downward,” we also have the casual empiricism of my last post, and now we’ve also got the below chart (brought to my attention by John S in the comments), taken from an AEI blog post but not sure who the original creator is:


Wow, look at that. It’s almost as if employers respond to incentives on the margin.

It’s true, there are papers that look at “natural experiments” and somehow throw away logic and evidence such as the above chart. Let me run through some issues quickly:

Monopsony. One claim is that the Econ 101 logic breaks down because employers have market power. But hang on a second. If you want to tell me that the wages of, say, brain surgeons are below the competitive equilibrium, since there are only a few employers who can form a cartel, then OK I’ll at least give you a few moments to make your case. But you’re telling me there is a cartel of employers who are willing to hire unskilled labor?! That is literally the most non-specific factor of production on planet Earth. You need labor for everything, and by definition, unskilled labor is not suited for one occupation more than another.

I think the reason this might initially sound plausible to people, is that there aren’t a lot of teenagers working all over the place. You just see them concentrated in a few areas, like fast-food restaurants. But do you know why? Because of the ()#%$#$ minimum wage (and school attendance laws)!

You actually do see young people in various professional businesses and halls of government. They’re called interns. So we’ve got lots of young people finding employers willing to take them on at $0/hour, and yet apparently there is this “indeterminate bargaining zone” where employers’ quantity of labor demanded is the same between 1 cent and $7.25 (or $9). Does this range also count as a “modest increase”? Or does even Krugman admit that getting rid of the minimum wage altogether would help reduce the 25%+ teen unemployment rate, while increasing it from $7.25 to $9 would be negligible in the other direction?

Studies look at employment growth, not unemployment rates. Apparently the standard thing to do in these studies is look at how much the absolute amount of employment or labor hours changes, rather than looking at the unemployment percentage. The idea (I gather) is that a high minimum wage can draw people into the labor market who can’t find a job, but these people wouldn’t have had a job anyway, so it’s not a strike against the system. Only if employers actually reduce the quantity demanded, can we say (some) workers are hurt. But even on its own terms, this argument fails. The most desperate, vulnerable people are the ones who will work for, say, $5/hour. At that rate, fewer middle-class college kids will enter the labor market. But bump up the wage rate to $7.25, and now a bunch of suburban white kids take a part time job at Pizza Hut to make a little extra money. Even if the total payroll and hours worked doesn’t change, it still means these kids bump out the new immigrant who barely speaks English and needs to get his foot in the door to establish a work history.

Studies correct employment growth for broader trends. My very quick reading of the literature suggested that the empirical studies in the olden days did find a strong connection between a minimum wage hike, and reduced hiring among teens. But, the newer wave of studies disputes that finding. One of the “corrections” the new studies make, is to adjust the change in teen hiring compared to the broader labor market, which presumably isn’t affected by a minimum wage hike. Yet hang on a second. Even in the “natural” experiments, I would imagine a state legislature that jacks up the minimum wage is also more likely to do other “progressive” things that hurt employment growth. So things still move in the same direction, but now you’re not going to get as clear a signal; it’s hard to disentangle why the teenagers in California can’t get a job–is it because of the minimum wage hike, or because of their outrageously progressive income tax code?

Studies focus on fast-food employment across county or state lines. Again, I am not claiming to be an expert on this stuff, but it looked like a lot of the really “compelling” studies looked at natural experiments where you had similar conditions except a chain of restaurants fell in one jurisdiction that raised its minimum wage, while the other restaurants in the chain fell in an adjacent jurisdiction that didn’t. Seems like a perfect laboratory test right? But hang on. If the minimum wage in one state makes it profitable for the restaurant to bite the bullet and install a bunch of labor-saving machinery (like the drink dispensers that you put the cup under and hit a button and walk away, unlike what they used to do when I was growing up where you had to hold the cup in place on the nozzle), then it would be pretty easy for that restaurant chain to use the same, new design when opening up new locations in other states with the original minimum wage. By the same token, even longitudinally looking at the same actual restaurant, once they redesign the place to be run by (say) 4 responsible teenagers and a manager, instead of (say) 9 goof-off teenagers and a manager, then even if that state later abolishes its higher-than-federal minimum wage, the damage is done; the restaurant isn’t going back to the old model.

How does this square with the Keynesian story about monetary stimulus? Finally, how the heck does this whole minimum wage digression line up with Krugman et al. constantly telling us that the problem in Europe and elsewhere, is that wages are too high relative to the price level? They tell us that if we engage in a currency war, we’ll all be better off because prices will rise, making it profitable for employers to hire once again. So, are they saying prices will need to rise by more than 24 percent, in order for the teen unemployment rate to budge?

I’m sorry, I just get the feeling that the story changes to fit the progressive policy of the day. And again, I am not burying my head in the sand and refusing to accept something obvious: On the contrary, I am saying demand curves slope downward, and I can point to all sorts of obvious evidence to back that up. Indeed, the Keynesians themselves think employers follow the same logic I’m talking about, when it comes to their proposals for monetary stimulus.

Yet somehow, the old empirical consensus on the minimum wage has been overturned by a wave of new studies of “natural experiments,” so I’m giving reasons in this post why those studies might be missing the obvious conclusion staring us all in the face: Making teenagers 24% more expensive in the middle of a depression is not the way to help teenagers.

There are always unforeseen consequences for government policies, even ones that seem to be common sense on their face. A minimum wage to help the poor only hurts the poor.
 
That’s what this ridiculous graphic tells us:



Even the Huffington Post refuted this one. The price increase would be much more substantial. (Though even here, HuffPo’s analysis is suspect. It doesn’t consider the effects of the price increases on the demand for the product: people would buy fewer burgers at the considerably higher prices, which means there would be less demand for fast-food workers’ labor.)

Incidentally, if you want to help poor people, why not just go ahead and do it? Why go the absurdly circuitous route of trying to make food more expensive (which in turn hurts other poor people)? Why not just seek out the working poor directly and help them? And why castigate the only institution in society that has lifted a finger to improve their material condition?

Answer: these people are all talk. They’d love to help everyone in the world, as long as someone else pays the price. These critics pay McDonald’s employees zero, but they are upset at McDonald’s, which gives them a paycheck. (Once again, I remind readers that the merits of fast food are not the issue here.)

A week or so ago I posted about how utterly wrongheaded the force-wages-up-by-wishful-thinking crowd is, and I explained how in fact wages rise. Click here for that post.

Let me add a few more thoughts to what I wrote at that link. Once wages are raised to $10 or $15 an hour, why would the critics stop? Isn’t it also tough to live on $10 or $15 an hour? Can’t we wish $50/hr wages into existence? And if we can do that, why not $100/hr?

The kind of thinking reflected in the graphic is that wage rates are really just arbitrary things, and that they can be increased without any real inconvenience to anyone. Plus, they say, it will help the economy (by stimulating consumption) if people get paid more, etc.

To give a sense of the problem with this latter claim, let’s be sports and set aside the disemployment effects of the wage increase. Let’s consider just the claim that spending more on consumer goods is what an economy needs. (So to be clear, we’re leaving out the point that higher wages don’t necessarily increase the overall spending of workers if fewer workers have jobs in the first place because the higher wages threw them out of work.)

So consider: if it’s “good for the economy” for unskilled labor to be given an arbitrary, coercively levied wage increase, would it also be good for the economy if employers quit shopping around for low prices for steel and just paid more for steel, so the steel manufacturers would have more money to spend on consumption? Would it be even better if they went out of their way to pay more for lumber than the going price? Then the lumber people would have more to spend. Would it be still better if employers paid extra for lumber, steel, labor — and everything else they needed? If it’s “good for the economy” for business firms to pay artificially high wages, why not demand that they pay artificially high prices for everything? Then the economy would be super!

You see the problem. The firm becomes less and less profitable, and less able to support employment, the more it needs to pay for inputs. And the more it pays for some inputs, the less it has on hand to pay for others. Extra money paid in wages over here means less spent on intermediate goods — and thus lower wages for other workers — over there. And the firm is less able to invest in capital equipment, which is what makes all of society wealthier.

A word, too, on the misplaced emphasis on consumption, as if that’s all an economy was about. If all we did was consume, and no one saved and productively expended any resources, the entire structure of production would grind to a halt. Just to maintain the structure of production involves saving enough to support the existing capital structure: all the stages and production processes from raw materials down to the finished product that constitute the intermediate stages of production that are left out of GDP. (For more on this, see my resource page on GDP.)

So if we were determined to “stimulate consumption,” we should be happy at the following outcome. Suppose we have a lucky person (lucky because the doubling of his wages at McDonald’s did not force him out of a job through layoffs or through the suddenly hastened automation of his job, or did not force him to do extra work, or did not take away his fringe benefits, etc). This lucky person takes some of his extra pay and buys five gallons of milk. The milk seller takes the money he earns from this sale and buys a new shirt. The shirt seller takes the money from selling the shirt and buys a few gallons of gas. And so on. All consumption. Nothing is saved or productively expended.

This means: no wages are paid (since making payroll is not consumption), no business-related bills are paid (again, not consumption), no intermediate goods are ordered by later-stage production (again, not consumption), etc. The result of all this spending: inventories of consumer goods would dwindle, and, the gross saving necessary to keep the production structure up and running not having occurred, the productive capacity of the economy would collapse. There’s your utopia of consumption.

Obviously, then, “the economy” is more than just money passing from hand to hand in exchange for consumer goods. To say that “consumption” needs artificial stimulus is a morally and economically arbitrary value judgment. Only the voluntary decisions of all market actors, based on their own preferences and coupled with a market price system, can give rise to a structure of production that balances our desires to consume with the enormously complex latticework of capital and stages of production that make our preferred level of consumption possible.

One more thing: we are faced with impossible obstacles anytime we think in terms of a “fair wage” that differs from the wage that emerges on the market.

Consider: economist George Stigler noted decades ago that in order to meet the nutritional standards of the U.S. government in 1943 least expensively, a man of 154 pounds could consume, in a year, 370 pounds of wheat flour, 57 cans of evaporated milk, 111 pounds of cabbage, 23 pounds of spinach, and 285 pounds of dried navy beans.

For a wage to be “fair,” would it have to allow only this for food? What kind of variety would be “fair”? Are movie rentals part of “fair” compensation? If so, how many per month? How many cigarettes are “fair”?

This is ridiculous. If you want wages to rise, abandon the juvenile insistence that protests and demands make economic sense. This is how wages rise.
 
There are always unforeseen consequences for government policies, even ones that seem to be common sense on their face. A minimum wage to help the poor only hurts the poor.

That's not true. Or at least, you need to qualify that statement a lot before it would be true. An increase in the minimum wage certainly helps those poor people who managed to retain that job at the higher wage. It hurts significantly those who either lose their job (comparatively rare), or (much more likely) don't get a job that might otherwise have been created. Generally, that's going to be a smaller number than those who keep the job at the higher wage rate, too.

And it is generally a minor disadvantage to everyone else who now must pay more of their income for whatever product or service is being produced at that higher minimum wage.
 
That's not true. Or at least, you need to qualify that statement a lot before it would be true. An increase in the minimum wage certainly helps those poor people who managed to retain that job at the higher wage. It hurts significantly those who either lose their job (comparatively rare), or (much more likely) don't get a job that might otherwise have been created. Generally, that's going to be a smaller number than those who keep the job at the higher wage rate, too.

And it is generally a minor disadvantage to everyone else who now must pay more of their income for whatever product or service is being produced at that higher minimum wage.

It doesn't even really help the ones that keep their job because they will have to spend more money on goods and services that were cheaper before. Ultimately it helps no one and hurts everyone, some more than others.
 
It doesn't even really help the ones that keep their job because they will have to spend more money on goods and services that were cheaper before. Ultimately it helps no one and hurts everyone, some more than others.

That's simply not true. The vast majority of goods and services purchased by Americans are not produced by people earning minimum wage in this country, So the increase will affect prices only for a relatively small number of goods/services, and won't eat up all the value of those increased wages. It's all those other people who didn't see their wages increase, and therefore get no benefit at all, who will end up the net losers.

In other words, the benefit of the wage increases goes to only a few, while the cost is distributed among everyone.

I don't support the increase either, but this just isn't a very good argument against it. To have an honest debate, you have to acknowledge that there are at least some "winners".
 

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