Minimum Wage Increase: Support or Oppose ?

[Notorious]

Purchasing power.... That is why minimum wage needs to be raised. Minimum wage has not gone up to match the inflation.

 

[Tornicade]

A couple things

since 1968 the real value of minimum wage compared to inflation would be the equivalent of 10.69 wage today.
inflation has risen to the point that even with gradual increase the real value of minimum wage has dropped over 30% in real value. raiding the wage is a long overdue correction and fixing it with an annual or bi annual inflation adjustment would keep it at the appropriate levels.

this represents 6 pecernt of the labor populations. now.. to put this in context 25-%(90% of the poverty line) to 40% (at or 10% above poverty line) of Americans in the labor force make less than the 1.60 an hour that min wage workers got in 1968.

This means inflations has not only passed up those at the poverty level but the lower middle class as well.

in addition if your making 56k salary right now..your value 30 years ago would of been 96k .

thats chart is estimated inflation adjusted.
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

other research
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42973.pdf

just shows that 10.69 is > 7.25

and despite min wage dropping in real value inflation continues on

at some point inflation will catch up with the middle class

as an economy its important to make sure that business operate in a capitalist system treating labor as capital

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Tornicade, what's the basis for the assumption that real incomes shouldn't or can't decrease?

The days of most people being able to get a good paying job in manufacturing without any particular skills are over for the most part in this country.

The historical era when American workers had a huge skill/productivity advantage over the rest of the world, which was part of the basis for that manufacturing economy, is over as well. The rest of the world has caught up, and that problem can't be solved with government-mandated wage policies.

 

[gourimoko]

Q-Tip,

You just asked Tornicade for a basis (assuming proof) for his statements (when he's been providing plenty), but then you make an assertion that seems based mostly on your opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are getting at; however, much of that has to do with globalization rather than "the world catching up."

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Q-Tip,

You just asked Tornicade for a basis (assuming proof) for his statements (when he's been providing plenty), but then you make an assertion that seems based mostly on your opinion.

Well, he didn't really provide a basis -- even an opinion -- for why real wages shouldn't go down. He just kind of took that as a given, and has been pushing ideas to make that happen. I'm not blaming him for doing that because nobody had asked that. I think others were kind of taking it as a given as well, to tell you the truth. I'm just asking why we should assume that. I suppose a response can be fact or opinion based.

however, much of that has to do with globalization rather than "the world catching up."

Well, I'm not sure there's much of a different between those two things in this context. Or maybe it's "both". But I think the concept is clear enough. The issue is justifying the economic logic behind a high school educated guy in the U.S. making so much more money than a high school educated guy in Mexico or China.

 

[Tornicade]

Well, he didn't really provide a basis -- even an opinion -- for why real wages shouldn't go down. He just kind of took that as a given, and has been pushing ideas to make that happen. I'm not blaming him for doing that because nobody had asked that. I think others were kind of taking it as a given as well, to tell you the truth. I'm just asking why we should assume that. I suppose a response can be fact or opinion based.



Well, I'm not sure there's much of a different between those two things in this context. Or maybe it's "both". But I think the concept is clear enough. The issue is justifying the economic logic behind a high school educated guy in the U.S. making so much more money than a high school educated guy in Mexico or China.

Tornicade, what's the basis for the assumption that real incomes shouldn't or can't decrease?

The days of most people being able to get a good paying job in manufacturing without any particular skills are over for the most part in this country.

The historical era when American workers had a huge skill/productivity advantage over the rest of the world, which was part of the basis for that manufacturing economy, is over as well. The rest of the world has caught up, and that problem can't be solved with government-mandated wage policies.

you can mow your grass every day but it will still look like shit if you dont take care of the weeds

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

you can mow your grass every day but it will still look like shit if you dont take care of the weeds

Uh, sure....

 

[gourimoko]

Well, I'm not sure there's much of a different between those two things in this context. Or maybe it's "both". But I think the concept is clear enough. The issue is justifying the economic logic behind a high school educated guy in the U.S. making so much more money than a high school educated guy in Mexico or China.

Is it your position that government policy should not take into account and attempt to improve American wages, given the three workers in three nations of equal education/skill - America, China, and Mexico - in your example?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Is it your position that government policy should not take into account and attempt to improve American wages, given the three workers in three nations of equal education/skill - America, China, and Mexico - in your example?

Honestly, the syntax in the second clause is throwing me off a bit, so I'm not sure what you're asking.

So, I'll just state that you cannot assume there is some inherent right to ever-increasing, or even ever-stable, real wages. Or that government actions in the form of wage mandates that try to compel such wages are sustainable.

 

[NtG]

Minimum wage should be eliminated.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Minimum wage should be eliminated.

I wouldn't go that far, but there is unquestionably work that cannot be performed here due to minimum wage, and is therefore outsourced to places with lower wages. And if you barred the outsourcing, the work wouldn't exist because the price for the product would be too high.

 

[Lee]

A couple things

since 1968 the real value of minimum wage compared to inflation would be the equivalent of 10.69 wage today.
inflation has risen to the point that even with gradual increase the real value of minimum wage has dropped over 30% in real value. raiding the wage is a long overdue correction and fixing it with an annual or bi annual inflation adjustment would keep it at the appropriate levels.

this represents 6 pecernt of the labor populations. now.. to put this in context 25-%(90% of the poverty line) to 40% (at or 10% above poverty line) of Americans in the labor force make less than the 1.60 an hour that min wage workers got in 1968.

This means inflations has not only passed up those at the poverty level but the lower middle class as well.

in addition if your making 56k salary right now..your value 30 years ago would of been 96k .

thats chart is estimated inflation adjusted.
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

other research
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42973.pdf

just shows that 10.69 is > 7.25

and despite min wage dropping in real value inflation continues on

at some point inflation will catch up with the middle class

as an economy its important to make sure that business operate in a capitalist system treating labor as capital

So if i read this correctly, and i am pretty sure i am, then the $15 an hour this thread suggests is as absurd as min wage still being at $4.25 an hour.

It seems somewhere around $10 an hour is appropriate.

While this might cost the dollar menu at some fast food places to go up $.25 per an item, i dont think this is a crippling increase like some are suggesting. The market will adjust, in many places that is almost as much as a fast food worker already makes.

All of that said, i lost count and i am not sure who in here is arguing for $15 an hour if anyone.

 

[Scrote Squad]

So if i read this correctly, and i am pretty sure i am, then the $15 an hour this thread suggests is as absurd as min wage still being at $4.25 an hour.

It seems somewhere around $10 an hour is appropriate.

While this might cost the dollar menu at some fast food places to go up $.25 per an item, i dont think this is a crippling increase like some are suggesting. The market will adjust, in many places that is almost as much as a fast food worker already makes.

All of that said, i lost count and i am not sure who in here is arguing for $15 an hour if anyone.

What are you doing in this thread? You make $200k a year, son. Tell these poor bastards to kiss your Jewish balls.

 

[OptimusPrime]

People are talking about inflation like it is an incidental thing, but it is the reason people feel the need to have a minimum wage. Back in the day before the Federal Reserve, when workers were being "exploited", their wages didn't decrease over time, but the purchasing power of their wages increased. They got a raise every year because the prices of goods and services decreased. If that trend would have held for the last 100 years, even the poorest worker would be wealthy enough to live comfortably even if they never got a nominal increase in their pay.

 

[Man Called X]

People are talking about inflation like it is an incidental thing, but it is the reason people feel the need to have a minimum wage. Back in the day before the Federal Reserve, when workers were being "exploited", their wages didn't decrease over time, but the purchasing power of their wages increased. They got a raise every year because the prices of goods and services decreased. If that trend would have held for the last 100 years, even the poorest worker would be wealthy enough to live comfortably even if they never got a nominal increase in their pay.

You mean that having a private entity control our entire currency is a bad thing?