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Obama to use Executive Action on Immigration

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EDIT: And just reading through the thread I can see multiple times where the "you don't like him because he's black" card is being played. I probably won't be responding to this thread again if that's the line of argument being tossed around. It's lazy and insulting. You feel like being lazy and insulting then go ahead, but I won't respond.

There are clearly some people of all races who give a "plus" when voting for people of their own race -- it's not limited to "white people racism". And while race certain matters at some level -- and in primaries more than general elections -- it simply isn't going to be the determinative factor in most general elections because the views of the candidates are going to trump it. For most people, it is a very minor factor. And I agree the idea that half or more of the current opposition to him is based on his race is simply wrong. The opposition to him is based overwhelmingly on him espousing views that are further to the left -- in an absolute sense -- than those of any prior President.

Republicans in Ohio voted overwhelmingly for Ken Blackwell -- the most conservative the Republican, the more likely he/she was to support Blackwell. And a lot of liberal Dems really despised Blackwell despite his being black. You saw the same thing in the GOP primary in 2012, where the black GOP candidate Herman Cain's most fervent supporters were hard-line tea partiers who were overwhelmingly white. Policies trump race for the vast majority of people.

But people are willing to manipulate facts for their own agenda. Blacks voting more heavily for Obama in the Democratic primary has been excused because "blacks tend to vote for the more liberal candidate, and Obama was more liberal than Hilary."

Of course, if you accept the argument that Obama was the more liberal candidate, Obama's greater degree of liberalism also could explain why there is so much GOP opposition to him. Republicans tend to oppose/vilify liberal candidates, which is why Ted Kennedy was sort of the poster boy for GOP anger for much of the 70's-90's. But some prefer to race bait.
 
There are clearly some people of all races who give a "plus" when voting for people of their own race -- it's not limited to "white people racism".

The insinuation here seems to be that it isn't used as a negative as well.

That seems...naive.
 
Few points here.

1. Q, you want to focus first on border security. Sounds great but not only would it take years.

That's true, which is why you get started on it. Had Obama pushed that in 2009 instead of doing the opposite, we'd have had those "years", and the southern border at least might well be comparatively secure now.

Be practically impossible due to the sheer length of the border and cost entirely too much.

First, you don't have to have an absolutely impenetrable border. Just much, much better than the way it is today, which is certainly attainable.

As for it being "practically impossible", the freaking Chinese managed to build a much longer wall across an entire border -- including deserts, mountain ranges, etc., -- thousands of years ago. They did it without modern construction equipment, road networks, or building materials. Why is it so impossible today? We spent $900B on a stimulus bill in 2009, barely 5% of which was infrastructure/construction. Even the high estimates of a southern border fence were below $50B. Had we spent some of that stimulus money on a fence, we'd actually have something concrete to show for all that cash in addition to putting all those construction people to work. Instead, Obama actually cancelled fence expenditures that already had been planned.

It's ignoring the fundamental issue that we have illegals here already. Amnesty and making our immigration system easier and cheaper not only allows those here to start on the path to citizenship, it makes there much less of an incentive to cross illegally.

To the contrary, if you have a system that legalizes those that are "already here", when there is not a reliable system for proving who was "already here" and who wasn't, you've greatly increased the incentive for people to cross. Because if they cross, they can be legalized.

2. Republicans are a walking hypocritical mess on immigration. Want border security yet many are elected and influenced by big companies that exploit illegal labor.

As I said upthread, the GOP is not monolithic. You have a faction that wants tighter border controls, and a faction that wants more cheap labor. They are very often not the same people. You have factions within the Democratic party as well on this issue.

Max calling Obama the most divisive president ever or recent history is incorrect. Obama spent much of his first term trying to act bipartisan and the republicans employed a strategy of doing nothing and holding the system in a deadlock. That was a result of the tea party movement.

You seem to be advancing the idea that Congress has some sort of obligation to approve the President's agenda. It doesn't. "Deadlock" -- meaning there is not substantial agreement on major policy initiatives -- is a perfectly "constitutional" condition that was deliberately built into the Constitution. The Framers leaned towards a government doing less, not more. They thought considered inaction to be preferable to rash or unwise action. So, they structurally biased the system by giving just one House of Congress the ability to stop legislation.

Obama has been "divisive" in the sense that he's not has a good relationship with Congress period. You don't have to look far to find Democrats who believe the White House has been insular, unwilling to listen/make deals, etc.. I think there are some in the White House who believe Congress' responsibility is limited to doing the "detail work" of drafting actual legislation, but that it should basically rubber stamp the President's broad policies. And that just ain't true. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Congress opposing at the outset the entire thrust of a Presidential initiative with which it disagrees.

4. While his executive order is beyond the Reagan and Bush, extending amnesty in this manner in my opinion is certainty within the spirit of those. It's largely uncharted territory and as Obama said, pass a bill rather than sit and get pissy. The refusal to put the bill to a vote, the same do nothing method republicans have been adhering to for years, bit them in the ass.

Unlike some others, I agree Obama has the Constitutional authority to refuse to enforce the law, even if some might claim it is not in keeping with the "spirit" of the Constitution. The proper Congressional response is to do the same -- use all of its Constitutional authority, even if some may say that is not being used as intended either.

So for starters, I'd freeze all judicial nominees at the Court of Appeals and Supreme Court level until the end of his term. And if that doesn't get his attention, expand the freeze to nominations outside the judicial context.
 
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The insinuation here seems to be that it isn't used as a negative as well.

That seems...naive.

It's used as a negative by some people in both parties, and by people of all races. But as I said, it rarely is enough to overcome substantive policy differences.
 
So yeah how 'bout that immigration...
 
I'm @ school right now but I live in Baltimore. What part of Maryland are you talking about? I know you said up north, but what city?

sorry, didnt check this thread for a while.

cecil county. specifically rising sun. for those of you that dont know its where the grandmaster of the KKK used to live. One of my exes' told me stories about her grandfather hosting klan meetings in the 90s.
 
I'm curious about your take on this, Bob. I'm not trying to call you out. Like I said, I'm just curious about your opinion since you seem fairly vocal about this issue.

I agree with you that racism is alive and well in the US in 2014. However, I think a lot of what people call "racism" nowadays tends to be what I would consider "bigotry" or "prejudice". Not that those two things are acceptable by any means, but to me they aren't AS severe as downright believing in the innate inferiority or deficiency of a person simply because he is a member of a particular race (cue the Gourimoko posting of modern dictionary definitions of racism in an attempt to say I'm "behind the times" on this). I know, I get it: Language changes over time, but in my opinion it's not always for the best. And in my opinion the equation of racism with prejudice and bigotry does a disservice to the accuracy of language and it clouds the discussion about race and the motivations of people.

None of that is central to my curiosity, but I wanted to get it out there so you kind of knew where I stood. Really my point/question is this. You and others believe that a large segment of the anti-Obama voters cast their ballots against Barack simply because of his race. I would argue that the exact same thing is true for many people who voted FOR Obama: they did so simply because he is black. Philosophically speaking, there's no difference between these two groups. Both are using the race of the candidate as the determining factor of their voting decisions. Yet I would venture to guess that many people (yourself included perhaps?) don't have a problem with the second group of voters who selected Obama simply because he is black. So I guess my question to you is: Do you personally see any difference between these two acts of prejudice?

i guess my personal belief is youre really cutting hairs in order to define it differently, but you might not be incorrect? I think part of that problem is without really knowing the individual its impossible to really tell are they a bigot, prejudice, racist... all 3. I would say that being a bigot and being prejudice more of shows up on the actual actions of the person. Where as being a racist is more of something the person feels? If that makes sense. Could you be a bigot and prejudice and not be a racist (per your definition), absolutely. But my experiences seem to lend me to the a whole heck of a lot of those people are also racist.

Also for the record, im white.

Finally part of the systemic problem we face is people on a regular basis vote against their own ideals. I dont know if i chalk that up to ignorance, apathy, or what. Im sure someone's done a study on it.
 
Immigration is a loser topic for Republicans, which is why the President made this controversial move.. America is a nation of immigrants, and it cannot fundamentally refuse "the tired huddled masses yearning to be free" and still be the "shining city on the hill". Ronald Reagan saw this and pushed for and got the IRCA bill of 1986, which created amnesty for 3 million illegals. Unfortunately it did not create a path to citizenship for future illegals. More people crossed the border than ever illegally.

After Reagan, neither Bush Sr, nor Clinton took any real action to fix the problem. It was George W, who proposed a solution (temporary workers program), but his own right abandoned him as too soft, while the Dems refused to compromise.

And so here we are with 11 million illegals, a porous border, and a legal immigration backlog measured in years, and nobody interested in actually addressing the problem.

If The President has had the authority to grant mass amnesty as president, why did it take him six years to issue his edict? The answer is that he wants it to be an issue in the next presidential election. So the Dems lose the senate and bang he puts it front and center in the national debate.

If the extreme right had any damn sense (which they don't) They would get in front of this issue by establishing a path to citizenship which includes paying taxes while your are here and not committing felonies. In addition they would provide resources to fast track immigration from south america in particular, and conflict regions in general, so that the wait for US visa's in a matter of weeks, not months..

And border security? We are wide open to terrorists coming from South America, but we won't do anything about it until something bad happens. And a chain link fence will not prevent Al Quaeda from coming across. The problem is a weak and or corrupt mexico (and any other central american nation for that matter) . We spent all this money trying to create a democratic Iraq. It seems to me it would make more sense to spend money to create a working state on our border.
 
Immigration is a loser topic for Republicans, which is why the President made this controversial move.

Every poll I've seen consistently shows that a solid majority believe that we should increase border security and reduce illegal immigration. 2/3 of Americans oppose Obama's immigration action.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...-Americans-Disapprove-of-Obama-on-Immigration

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...legal-immigration-should-be-top-priority.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...e-but-latinos-arent-about-to-vote-republican/

http://www.people-press.org/2014/09/03/more-prioritize-border-security-in-immigration-debate/

America is a nation of immigrants, and it cannot fundamentally refuse "the tired huddled masses yearning to be free" and still be the "shining city on the hill".

The issue isn't stopping all legal immigration. It's stopping illegal immigration.

Ronald Reagan saw this and pushed for and got the IRCA bill of 1986, which created amnesty for 3 million illegals. Unfortunately it did not create a path to citizenship for future illegals. More people crossed the border than ever illegally.

You're ignoring the part of the IRCA deal that promised increased border security. Reagan agreed to IRCA, and Democrats promised to fund more border security. Of course, they reneged on that promise almost immediately.

And so here we are with 11 million illegals, a porous border, and a legal immigration backlog measured in years, and nobody interested in actually addressing the problem.

No offense, but that's simply ridiculous. Lots of people are extremely interested in fixing the problem. It's just that there isn't agreement on solutions.

If The President has had the authority to grant mass amnesty as president, why did it take him six years to issue his edict? The answer is that he wants it to be an issue in the next presidential election.

That makes no sense at all. If he would have felt it was a big electoral winner, he would have done it prior to when he was up for reelection himself in 2012. Or, he'd have done it prior to this year's midterms so as to boost his chance of keeping the Senate and winning the House. Unless you want to claim that he didn't care if he was working with a Congress controlled by Democrats or Republicans. And Democrats themselves were pretty clear that they did not want him to do it for fear it would hurt their elections chances.

The timing of this move leads to the exact opposite conclusion from the one you just drew. He didn't do it prior to the 2010 midterms, the 2012 election, or the 2014 midterms because it was an issue that would have hurt Democratic prospects in those elections. And if he wanted it to be a major issue in 2016 (and why help the 2016 nominee but not yourself....), he'd have done it much closer to that election so that it would be a hotter issue. Instead, he did it during the lame-duck session immediately following an election so that as much time as possible would elapse before the next election.

If the extreme right had any damn sense (which they don't) They would get in front of this issue by establishing a path to citizenship which includes paying taxes while your are here and not committing felonies.

You may not like the polls, but if people who disagree without you on this issue are just the "extreme right", that's upwards of 2/3 of the population.

We spent all this money trying to create a democratic Iraq. It seems to me it would make more sense to spend money to create a working state on our border.

Classic liberalism. It's not enough for you to establish a welfare state in the U.S.. You want to fund a welfare state in Mexico as well.

We need much tighter employment restrictions with much greater penalties. Unfortunately, the fascists on the left are in bed with big business (because that's what distinguishes fascism from socialism), who want all those immigrants to drive down wages. That's why you've got this weird alliance of Democrats and establishment C 0f C Republicans like Jeb Bush on the same side of this issue.

I personally believe we need more legally immigration. But legalization without border security and tightening up employment verification is the worst of all worlds.
 
Q,

You misinterpreted what I said to point where i am not sure i could explain it to you..

So I am not a liberal. Never voted for a liberal. Start with that.

Polls are not votes, and although it might be true that 66% of Americans want to increase border security and reduce illegal immigration, unless those americans are registered voters willing to vote soley on that issue, it is politically meaningless.

Amnesty for illegal aliens provides 11 million votes for the democrats in 2016. This is added to the existing voting math, which is very nearly 50/50. So this is a loser issue because by fighting it, republicans only create a unified single issue voting block against them. And I am not talking about just the amnestid illegals newly made citizens, I am talking about a large latino community which thinks Republicans are racist because they oppose illegals. . The democrats are amping up this fight now because it strengthens them. It does not strengthen Republicans...

I am not ignoring the enforcement aspects of 1986. It just is not relevant to my point which is that the only President to actually amnesty illegal's using the legislative process ( as opposed to edict) was a republican, bu you wont hear that over the next two years because all republicans are supposedly racist..

I you think the President chose to grant amnesty by edict thinking it would be a loss of votes, you are crazy. The democrats believe they will add votes by supporting the edict, and of all of the political topics possible, they want that one front and center.

And finally, i am not suggesting a welfare state in mexico. They tried that already. I am suggesting a non corrupt state in mexico, and the other central american states.
 
Us Mexicans helped us fight off Santa Anna and their reward was to have their gold mines stolen and their farms taken. Mexican immigration policies themselves have an interesting history
policies have transitioned migrant workers from seasonal to all year around simply because its so hard to travel between the two countries and when Mexico starts to develop their economy the Us destroys. like flooding mexico with free grain and destroying a budding agricultural trend.

What we should do is treat mexico like an Indian reservation declare all its inhabitants American citizens and allow the Mexican government to still maintain their autonomy.
 
Polls are not votes, and although it might be true that 66% of Americans want to increase border security and reduce illegal immigration, unless those americans are registered voters willing to vote soley on that issue, it is politically meaningless.

Where is your evidence that this is a loser issue for Republicans? The Republicans just won huge in a midterm when this exact issue was one of the ones more prominent in exit polls. The actual Democratic politicians involved -- who presumably have a very good idea which things help them win and which don't -- begged Obama not to do it until after the election.

Where's the evidence suggesting otherwise?

Amnesty for illegal aliens provides 11 million votes for the democrats in 2016.

No, it doesn't. Obama's action does not make them all citizens, nor does it make them eligible to vote. And while some undoubtedly will vote illegally, it won't be anything close to 11 million.

This is added to the existing voting math, which is very nearly 50/50. So this is a loser issue because by fighting it, republicans only create a unified single issue voting block against them.

Again, they're not the ones voting. And, if they could, they were going to vote Democrat regardless of the GOP position on that issue. Same with Latino activists who are single issue voters. They're all on the left and voting Democrat anyway.

And I am not talking about just the amnestid illegals newly made citizens

Well, I'll just go back to your first point and toss it right back at you. If this is what you think happened, then I'm not sure there's a basis for discussion at all. Obama's action DID NOT make amnestied illegals "newly made citizens". All he did was say that he wasn't going to deport them, and that he'd issue them green cards. That does not make them citizens.

I am talking about a large latino community which thinks Republicans are racist because they oppose illegals. . The democrats are amping up this fight now because it strengthens them. It does not strengthen Republicans.

You're asserting this as fact without any supporting evidence. How do you know this to be true? You've already said to ignore polls. And the actions taken both by congressional candidates and by the President himself refute the idea that this is an overall help to Democrats, at least in the short/medium term. I'll ask the same question again -- if this action was such a huge net boost for Democrats, why didn't Obama do it 1) in 2010 to preserve a Democrat Congress; 2) in 2012 to boost his own reelection, hold the Democrat Senate, and regain the House, or 3) in 2014 prior to the election, to hold the Senate and regain the House for his final two years? You've offered no explanation for why he waited until after all the elections that mattered to him to do something that supposedly is a huge boost to Democrats.

I you think the President chose to grant amnesty by edict thinking it would be a loss of votes, you are crazy. The democrats believe they will add votes by supporting the edict, and of all of the political topics possible, they want that one front and center.

Then why were most Democrat congressional candidates begging him to wait until after the election??

And finally, i am not suggesting a welfare state in mexico. They tried that already. I am suggesting a non corrupt state in mexico, and the other central american states.

We've been trying to do that for more than half a century, and it hasn't worked.
 
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/11/07/latino-voters-in-the-2012-election/

He did not need to do it for 2012 because he was winning by a landslide..

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2014/11/07/hispanic-voters-in-the-2014-election/

The party is losing ground in this demographic. He needs an issue to make this voting block cohesive, and now the republicans are going to have to oppose amnesty, which is a Latino issue.. Also they are pressing to claim the black vote as well. Right now that community is mobilized, and in my opinion the Democrats are better positioned to carry that as well. The Republicans are going to run a rich, old white guy.. and at this rate, lose..

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/24/obamas-amnesty-gets-90-percent-approval-from-hispa/

I have read a lot of claims from the republican anti immigration guys that Republicans dont need hispanic votes to win the whitehouse. But they are whistling in the dark. The Democrats will try to tie this issue to racism against Latinos, and that will tie it to the legal voting population, which is significant, even if none of the 11 million vote, legally or otherwise.

But that is not the whole story. Coming out against amnesty for illegal immigrants that are already here looks racist, especially to immigrants that associate themselves with darker skin..I am talking about refugees from the middle east and africa. Many of these are fast tracked (rightfully) to citizenship because they were getting shot at back home. Who do you think they will relate to in this debate? At the end of it, we are a nation of immigrants and refugees,and in the end opposing the amnesty will look like opposition to immigration itself.. Yeah you can argue its not the same thing, but the first 30 seconds will be the sound bite and its game over.

So stick to you premise that opposing amnesty is going to be a winner. I think that is what the republicans will do, and I think they will lose the most winnable election in a decade. Believe it or not, I hope I am wrong..
 
Yeah a trillion dollar boom to the Us economy is on the same political level as kissing babies.

What Obama is doing will be a huge boon tot he US economy and generate billions a year in tax revenue.

this has been proven. the Reagan administration put this theory to the test legalizing immigrants in the eighties.

Immigrant labor market bring down construction prices. reduces advantages of companies outsourcing labor to other countries and generates a boost in spending income for these immigrants that typically end up raising the quality of living for the general population.

legalizing immigrant itself would more than pay for any border tightening provisions that have a direct taxpayer cost.


This is important stuff not to be dismissed as poll fodder.
 
He's right about the race issue though. I don't know why you shrug it off so easily. It can be easily demonstrated that there is a very large segment of the electorate that despise Obama simply because he is black.

Yeah; however, there's an equal representation of folks who support him because he's black. It should be the decision making that is focused on.

I also believe that the media politics cloud the image one way or another that people are left trusting their own instincts, which often is to gravitate towards people like oneself.

Still, though, you can factually point out where Obama has been a terrible President, regardless of race. It's not necessary to even talk about his race. Now, does it irk these people who hated him to begin with when he is doing poorly (race or not)? You bet.

My issue is that Michelle Obama (allegedly) tells my President to focus and support issues that serve one "race" of the population. It makes me not trust the guy.
 

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