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Our Depth

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JMoneyYourHoney

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Wanted to generate a discussion on the topic of our depth. I realize that this summer may not have produced the "big" player that we were hoping to maintain via Haywood's contract, but I think we've quietly transformed from a top-heavy team to one of the deepest in the league.

But let's back up a bit and recap where we were circa a year ago. Our starting 5 outside the big 3 consisted of Dion Waiters and Anderson Varejao; AJ Price and Will Cherry III competed for time and roster stuffers like Lou Amundsen and Alex Kirk rode the bench. Jump forward to the end of the year and we're dramatically improved, but our reserves are aged veterans whose tanks had long emptied....Kendrick Perkins, Mike Miller, Shawn Marion, and Brendan Haywood. We were a wheezing and depleted unit that struggled valiantly against the top team in the league on the biggest stage but predictably fell short of immortality.

Heading into this season, we've casted off all the driftwood that watched hopelessly from the bench and vault into the upcoming season with a seasoned playmaker who can initiate an offense and provide a potent scoring punch, a consistent threat from the arc who can finish at the rim, and a true backup 5 coming off his best season and who has the added advantage of experience playing with the head coach and the team's starting center. Above all else, we've retained all of core pieces and we welcome a recovering Andy into the fold. We of course won't truly know how we measure on the depth chart until the season kicks into gear, and we could see precipitous fall-offs the like we're accustomed to, but I really like these signings. From top to bottom our 1-10 is as legit as it gets, and you're doing something right when your 11-14 consists of Varejao (a former borderline all-star), James Jones (former 3-point champion who has proven he can still be an effective scorer when his number is called), Delly (a young, improving talent who showed fierce heart and determination when we needed it most), and Joe Harris.

To top it off we have two trade exemptions and an open roster spot at our disposal...we can be even more loaded. It's funny, I've viewed the Clippers as our closest comparison in the West and they went out and plugged some holes this offseason. But while our utter lack of contributors on the bench has been the Achilles Heel we've limped with in the past, I'm very excited with what the Cavs come to the banquet with this year. I truly think this is our year to feast.

I think we're stacked guys; we finally have a deep team in Cleveland, one very deserving of the best player of his generation. The FO should be proud and Gilbert should be exalted. What are your thoughts?
 
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It was a weakness last season. Now my bet is that it won't be actually an advantage against other teams, but it will be good. And most importantly, no longer a weakness.

If it's going to be great, it depends a lot on what Varejao and Kaun can bring to the table, and both are big questionmarks. Also if Shumpert can be more dependable on offense, and if Jefferson can contribute with something.. but that's more like cream of the crop. The basic stuff is set to have a good one, very balanced, with guys with different characteristics who complete each other.

Only question is about health. Gotta limit the big 3 minutes, and there are tools for that, no doubt.

But I like this:

Kyrie 34/ Mo 12 / Delly 2
Shump 20 / JR 15 / Mo 7 / Delly 6
LBJ 29 / Shump 8 / JR 7 / Jefferson 4
Love 32 / TT 11 / LBJ 5
Mozgov 25 / TT 13 / AV 5 / Kaun 5

Total minutes:

LBJ 34
Kyrie 34
Love 32
Shump 28
Mozgov 25
TT 24
JR 23
Mo 19
Delly 8
AV 5
Kaun 5
Jefferson 4


Yep, that's pretty good. Good 8 men rotation at least right there. If things pan out, you may be talking about a 12 men rotation. Awesome.
 
We really needed some additional scoring. Just a little and Mo does that. Big man depth is sick. I really hope Andy had something and gets a ring.
 
It was a weakness last season. Now my bet is that it won't be actually an advantage against other teams, but it will be good. And most importantly, no longer a weakness.
I agree with this. Our second and third units aren't going to throttle other teams, but we can feel safe sitting all or most of our starters and not losing complete control of games. Remember how quickly we'd let sizeable leads evaporate within minutes before Blatt figured out his rotations? Our second units were casualties, and I highly doubt that will be the case now.

I'm particularly excited to see a Mo/JR backcourt. That can be a very dynamic and lethal 1-2 punch if both are in a groove. And I do think Jefferson may turn out to be a very underrated signing.
 
We really needed some additional scoring. Just a little and Mo does that. Big man depth is sick. I really hope Andy had something and gets a ring.
I think we have the deepest front court in the league. Who has a better one?
 
It's all about health really, as always with this team. If AV can actually give us a full year as a reliable backup, and our two 33 year olds (Jefferson and Mo, who will turn 33 mid-season) hold up well, then we have excellent bench depth. But if not then we are once again highly vulnerable to health problems with our big 3. Also, our depth will always be a notch behind the other top teams (Rockets, Warriors, Clippers, and Spurs) since two of our key starters in KI and KLove have bad recent injury histories. The other teams don't really have that problem. Except maybe the Rockets with Dwight?
 
I love how people talk about depth, sometimes without context.

So I'll give it context:

Player A: Superstar - 3 points
Player B: All-star - 2.5 points
Player C: Starter - 2 points
Player D: Rotational - 1 point
Player E: End of bench - 0 points

Even before we made the trade, we had some depth. No, it wasn't world-class, but it allowed us to hold on last season until we could pull off the mid-season trades

C-Andy, Haywood
PF-Love, Tristan
SF-LBJ, Marion, MM, JJ
SG-Dion, Harris
PG-Irving, Delly

Total Points: ~15.5

Just for some comparison, the Celtics also needed to make a couple trades during the season just to make the playoffs. They originally had a talented problem-child (Rondo), injury-prone front-court players (Sullinger), and guys that didn't fit quite as well (Green/Thornton). And they were about 8-10 deep at the beginning.

Historically, when our teams have competed as successful playoff teams, we were always missing something here or there.

1975-76:
C-Chones, Thurmond
PF-Brewer
SF-Bingo, Campy
SG-Snyder, Carr
PG-Cleamons, Foots

Total Points: ~15 points

They had good depth, but no true difference maker nor any way to fill in for injuries.

1988-89 & 1991-92:
C-Daugherty
PF-Nance, Hot Rod
SF-Sanders
SG-Harper ('89), Ehlo, Battle ('92)
PG-Price, Valentine ('89), Brandon ('92)

Total Points: ('89) ~14.5 - ('92) ~13.5

They were 7-8 deep most years. And fragile. And soft. Pity they had no player at MJ's level.

2006-07:
C-Big Z, Andy
PF-Gooden, Marshall
SF-LBJ
SG-Hughes, Pavs
PG-Snow, Gibson, Damon

Total Points: ~16

A somewhat deeper squad with some faulty players.

2008-09:
C-Big Z, Andy, Smith
PF-Big Ben, Hickson
SF-LBJ, Wally
SG-West, Pavs
PG-Mo, Gibson

Total Points: ~16.5

Ditto

2009-10:
C-Shaq, Andy, Big Z
PF-Jamison, Hickson
SF-LBJ, Moon
SG-Parker
PG-Mo, West, Gibson

Total Points: ~17

See above

We've spent most of our years competing with stars past their due date, players who can only play at one of the court, or players who couldn't stay healthy.

This past year was the first year we actually had great depth for a greater portion of our run.

C-Mozgov, Perkins, Haywood
PF-Love, Tristan
SF-LBJ, JJ, Marion, Miller
SG-Smith, Shumpert, Harris
PG-Irving, Delly

Total Points: ~17.5

I'm hoping people aren't taking the depth for granted, because we've never had anything close before last year.
 
This past year was the first year we actually had great depth for a greater portion of our run.

C-Mozgov, Perkins, Haywood
PF-Love, Tristan
SF-LBJ, JJ, Marion, Miller
SG-Smith, Shumpert, Harris
PG-Irving, Delly
Perkins, Haywood, Marion, Miller, and Harris were not and never will be construed as actual "depth". If they were we would have run more than a 6-man rotation in the Finals.
 
Perkins, Haywood, Marion, Miller, and Harris were not and never will be construed as actual "depth". If they were we would have run more than a 6-man rotation in the Finals.

I know. I only listed them on the roster. They don't count for any points.
 
I love how people talk about depth, sometimes without context.

So I'll give it context:

Player A: Superstar - 3 points
Player B: All-star - 2.5 points
Player C: Starter - 2 points
Player D: Rotational - 1 point
Player E: End of bench - 0 points

Even before we made the trade, we had some depth. No, it wasn't world-class, but it allowed us to hold on last season until we could pull off the mid-season trades

C-Andy, Haywood
PF-Love, Tristan
SF-LBJ, Marion, MM, JJ
SG-Dion, Harris
PG-Irving, Delly

Total Points: ~15.5

Just for some comparison, the Celtics also needed to make a couple trades during the season just to make the playoffs. They originally had a talented problem-child (Rondo), injury-prone front-court players (Sullinger), and guys that didn't fit quite as well (Green/Thornton). And they were about 8-10 deep at the beginning.

Historically, when our teams have competed as successful playoff teams, we were always missing something here or there.

1975-76:
C-Chones, Thurmond
PF-Brewer
SF-Bingo, Campy
SG-Snyder, Carr
PG-Cleamons, Foots

Total Points: ~15 points

They had good depth, but no true difference maker nor any way to fill in for injuries.

1988-89 & 1991-92:
C-Daugherty
PF-Nance, Hot Rod
SF-Sanders
SG-Harper ('89), Ehlo, Battle ('92)
PG-Price, Valentine ('89), Brandon ('92)

Total Points: ('89) ~14.5 - ('92) ~13.5

They were 7-8 deep most years. And fragile. And soft. Pity they had no player at MJ's level.

2006-07:
C-Big Z, Andy
PF-Gooden, Marshall
SF-LBJ
SG-Hughes, Pavs
PG-Snow, Gibson, Damon

Total Points: ~16

A somewhat deeper squad with some faulty players.

2008-09:
C-Big Z, Andy, Smith
PF-Big Ben, Hickson
SF-LBJ, Wally
SG-West, Pavs
PG-Mo, Gibson

Total Points: ~16.5

Ditto

2009-10:
C-Shaq, Andy, Big Z
PF-Jamison, Hickson
SF-LBJ, Moon
SG-Parker
PG-Mo, West, Gibson

Total Points: ~17

See above

We've spent most of our years competing with stars past their due date, players who can only play at one of the court, or players who couldn't stay healthy.

This past year was the first year we actually had great depth for a greater portion of our run.

C-Mozgov, Perkins, Haywood
PF-Love, Tristan
SF-LBJ, JJ, Marion, Miller
SG-Smith, Shumpert, Harris
PG-Irving, Delly

Total Points: ~17.5

I'm hoping people aren't taking the depth for granted, because we've never had anything close before last year.
Your post made me think of this article for some reason. I am not really arguing any particular side, just offering this study as something to consider.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/...nk-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/
 
What isn't Love underlined??
Even in a "down" year he averaged 17/9
For context, he in no way shape or form should be considered as the same level of player as Tristan and Shumpert. No knock on those guys but Love is a level or two above these guys. If u don't want to label him an Allstar cause he didn't make the team, that's fine but there's clearly a level between he and the rest of the players on the roster.
 

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