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Past, Present, and Future: Your Ideal Cavs Contender:

Discussion in 'Cavs Talk' started by rabman_gold, Dec 17, 2012.

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What type of contender do you want to see in the future?

  1. I want a traditional 3 star championship team (maybe 1-2 more stars).

    51.3%
  2. Let's make a team balanced so they can deal with everyone (above average players per position)!

    25.6%
  3. I want a team that Kyrie can lead, get him some role players (1 star's enough)!

    7.7%
  4. Let's move some of those "core" pieces! No draft picks! Get better players through trade!

    5.1%
  5. Stock up the picks! We're going to have a great roster with guys who were selected in the top 5!

    10.3%
  1. rabman_gold

    rabman_gold Anti-Florida yet stuck here...

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    I think this discussion is one worthy to debate for quite a while, as everyone has a personal preference of what the (supposedly future) champions should look like. Or even one that may have resembled our team from the past.

    Last year's champions looked like this:

    [TABLE]
    <tbody>[TR]
    [TH]Tier[/TH]
    [TH]Center[/TH]
    [TH]Power Forward[/TH]
    [TH]Small Forward[/TH]
    [TH]Shooting Guard[/TH]
    [TH]Point Guard[/TH]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Starters[/TD]
    [TD]C. Bosh[/TD]
    [TD]L. James[/TD]
    [TD]S. Battier[/TD]
    [TD]D. Wade[/TD]
    [TD]M. Chalmers[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]2nd String[/TD]
    [TD]J. Anthony[/TD]
    [TD]U. Haslem[/TD]
    [TD]M. Miller[/TD]
    [TD]--[/TD]
    [TD]--[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]3rd String[/TD]
    [TD]R. Turiaf[/TD]
    [TD]--[/TD]
    [TD]--[/TD]
    [TD]J. Jones[/TD]
    [TD]N. Cole[/TD]
    [/TR]
    </tbody>[/TABLE]

    Our 2009 team had a very different taste:

    [TABLE]
    <tbody>[TR]
    [TH]Tier[/TH]
    [TH]Center[/TH]
    [TH]Power Forward[/TH]
    [TH]Small Forward[/TH]
    [TH]Shooting Guard[/TH]
    [TH]Point Guard[/TH]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Starters[/TD]
    [TD]Z. Ilgauskas[/TD]
    [TD]B. Wallace[/TD]
    [TD]HIM[/TD]
    [TD]D. West[/TD]
    [TD]M. Williams[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]2nd String[/TD]
    [TD]A. Varejao[/TD]
    [TD]J. Smith[/TD]
    [TD]W. Szczerbiak[/TD]
    [TD]D. Gibson[/TD]
    [TD]--[/TD]
    [/TR]
    </tbody>[/TABLE]

    How about 1992:

    [TABLE]
    <tbody>[TR]
    [TH]Tier[/TH]
    [TH]Center[/TH]
    [TH]Power Forward[/TH]
    [TH]Small Forward[/TH]
    [TH]Shooting Guard[/TH]
    [TH]Point Guard[/TH]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Starters[/TD]
    [TD]B. Daugherty[/TD]
    [TD]L. Nance[/TD]
    [TD]M. Sanders[/TD]
    [TD]C. Ehlo[/TD]
    [TD]M. Price[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]2nd String[/TD]
    [TD]--
    [/TD]
    [TD]HR. Williams ^v[/TD]
    [TD]--[/TD]
    [TD]S. Kerr[/TD]
    [TD]T. Brandon/J. Battle[/TD]
    [/TR]
    </tbody>[/TABLE]

    That's just some figurative examples.

    What would YOU like to see as a future contender from the Cavs?
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2012
  2. foucault87

    foucault87 Towel Waver

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    I voted for the three-star method, although I might be interpreting this statement incorrectly. It seems to be the most tried and true system to have multiple "star" players who could impact any given game. While the term "star" seems arbitrary, the model can really be applied to pretty much any championship or contender, especially those that were relevant for several years. Just cherry-picking a few examples:

    Early 2ks Kings: Peja, CWebb, Divac
    80s Celtics: Parish, DJ, McHale, Bird
    90s Bulls: Jordan, Pippen, Grant/Rodman etc.

    It seems to me that a few things are needed for a team that plans to contend for several years: a primary star that can impact any given game and is also a leader when faced with difficult times, at least one to two more players who are good enough to be considered potential all-stars in any given season and also players that can impact a game (whether by passing, rebounding, defense) but not necessarily the main leaders of the team and willing to accept their roles as the second/third most important player, role players who are really good at what they do and sticking within their roles, at least one vet (probably a role player) with tons of playoff experience and possibly rings who is there mostly for the mental strength, and a token towel waver. The last role is super important.

    Looking at our roster, it seems we have the primary star (Kyrie) and hopefully one of those supporting stars (Dion). There are a few other players that could fill different roles (role player - Gee, Boobie, Zeller vet - AV, Boobie). Sadly, we just released a player that could become a premier towel waver (Harangody), but others will come. There is a lot this team still needs, but I think that Grant has done a great job getting a foundation set and hopefully leading the Cavs to long years of contention and many championships.
     
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  3. theSTEREO.

    theSTEREO. The second of his name.

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    Lotta exclamation marks in that poll
     
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  4. Free Agency God

    Free Agency God Birthing All-Stars

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    Our best towel-waver is forever gone now. His name was Wally Szczerbiak.

    His contributions went far beyond towel-waving. Just look at these videos below:

    [video=youtube;5iYwkJ1lBK4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iYwkJ1lBK4[/video]

    Just look at Wally's clutch congratulations he gives (0:35) Mo Williams after he makes the 3/4ths court shot of game 1 in the 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Finals. Just sick.

    [video=youtube;wopeVyuGRPg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wopeVyuGRPg[/video]

    Yet another clutch performance by Wally. He managed to not only slap LeBron's ass, but he got it right on the asshole, and he was watching while he did it.

    Wally will always have a warm spot on the bench of my heart.
     
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  5. rabman_gold

    rabman_gold Anti-Florida yet stuck here...

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    Nah. I just want to see what the other posters would like to see more of: stars, teams, draft picks, etc. Just depends on how you get there. For the 3 team method, I may as well say it's up to the poster's discretion. They could even post on here and say "trade Kyrie for Paul" or whatever if they feel that's better for our reasoning.

    Seems acceptable. Once again, up to the poster on the type of stars they feel we should have.

    Very good points. I put mine to a minimum so it could free up discussion that I think we may have for a few years or so.

    I think so too, but we're not the only ones with an opinion... Oh well.

    Yup. Sounds a lot like how some posters act on here, doesn't it ;)?
     
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  6. The Voice

    The Voice Best in the World

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    The only time I can find above average players winning it all is with the Pistons, though I may be wrong. That's why I think the three star deal works best, but after those three stars you need a clutch veteran IMO.
     
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  7. CleveRocks

    CleveRocks There go the Cavs!

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    Top teams today are:

    OKC Westbrook, Durant, Ibaka + Martin off bench
    New York Melo, Chandler, Felton* + JR Smith off the bench
    Clippers Paul, Griffin, Butler* + Crawford and Barns off the bench.. They also have DeAndre J who defends the rim
    San Antonio Duncan, Parker + Manu off the bench+ Pops
    Memphis Zbo, Gay, Gasol the younger and Conely. erratic bench
    Golden State Curry, Thompson, Lee plus Barns/Green Jarret Jack from the bench.
    Miami Wade, James, Bosh Allen off the bench...

    So it looks to me as if you need three really good players starting and one volume scorer off the bench. It appears to be best when those three starters include a long physical and versatile wing with inside and outside offense plus defensive ability, and somebody around the basket rebounding, swatting shots and finishing. This is the original Celtics model, with Garnett, Pierce and Ray Allen, plus Rondo who I think was an unplanned surprise.

    Or current configuration looks a lot more like Golden State. Our core is really two scoring ball handling guards. We are obviously looking for Thompson to be that rebounder blocker, but he is not there yet. So i think we are still two good pieces away from contention.
     
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  8. Adam

    Adam Reading and reacting

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    I think the secret to the modern NBA is two guys who demand double teams. Everyone else's offence feeds off the defensive rotations. Irving is one of those guys, just need another one from the draft
     
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  9. Jack Brickman

    Jack Brickman Preview Team

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    I think Dion could be that guy in time.
     
  10. ajz20

    ajz20 Draft Guru

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    100 percent correct. However, I dont think we will be able to draft that player this year. I dont see a player of Irving's caliber in this draft so dont expect it this June. Len may demand double teams later on in his career, but that is 2-3 years from now. it is going to have to be trade or FA and using the draft to add "core pieces who are starters but not top 20 type players." Perhaps, Waiters turns into that player, you never know! For true contention, as several of us have stated countless times, we need to make 1-2 MAJOR Moves in FA or trade and add one top 20-25 NBA talent in the next 2 years. That is assuming Waiters develops into a 17-20 a night scorer. If our team ends up being Irving, Waiters and solid role players I doubt we will ever win anything other than one playoff series.
     
  11. mAo_mAo

    mAo_mAo NBA Starter

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    I really want a 2 superstar bigman model.
     
  12. randymoss1881

    randymoss1881 Situational Stopper

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    You say Len could be that player but 2years from now then why not draft him. We wont be contending anytime soon anyway so whats the rush. Also waiters has shown plenty signs of being that player to. He gets to the rim and he his good in pick and roll and its only his rookie season. Give him time and when he starts getting calls and gets more comfortable he will easily be a 17-20ppg guy with good assist numbers and good defense.
     
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  13. Jon

    Jon ~

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    Offensively, you need at least 3 guys who can shoot the ball for the sake of floor spacing, and at least 2 who can create a shot for a teammate. Defensively you need decent length combined with speed & smarts to make effective rotations and contest shots.

    Tactically, I think we all want our team to play like a team ... not a star and his helpers, or even a pair of stars who take turns.

    What I'd enjoy a lot is a team without an obvious weakness that opponents can exploit and a team that plays smart. Attacking and driving is a lot of work compared to just setting an effective screen and taking the resulting open shot.
     
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  14. mds

    mds Sixth Man

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    Yeah, I don't think just having 'stars' works. It needs to fit together. Miami has struggled with this and still does. It was really the role players who made last year work for them. Battier just shot the shit out of the ball. It spaced the floor and allowed Lebron to do his shit.

    The current Lakers aren't working at all and they're loaded with stars. Lots of teams with big names never make it work.

    Obviously you want the best players possible, but most championship teams have players that fit certain roles. Some are creators, some are shooters, some are defender/rebounders, 6th men, etc. You kind of need it all. The Spurs did/do so well because they have a great big man, a great point guard, a great 6th man, and solid role players who just shoot, play D, and rebound.

    I have no idea how we're going to get there. Irving is one piece. Waiters might be another, and it might be 6th man. Everyone else is a role player at best. Of what we have now Andy is the only other piece I see contributing to a contender. If next years draft doesn't yield a legitimate player we're probably still years away unless we go nuts in free agency.
     
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  15. MalTalm

    MalTalm Formerly known as Talm

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    The ideal is drafting a great team, but the risk is the necessity of getting all (or most) of your picks right. But theoretically, letting young players learn the NBA game together will help with that cohesion. The Lakers, OTOH, have managed to combine a bunch of talented vets who all played under different systems, and then introduced a coach which teaches a system different from anything any of them have done before (with the exception of Nash, who's been hurt for most of Dantoni's current tenure). I still think the Cavs need a significant piece, and while I really like Dion, I'm not sure he'll be a perennial all-star type talent. Time will tell, but if he's not, we still need one. (Besides Kyrie)
     
  16. ajz20

    ajz20 Draft Guru

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    I would be thrilled with Len, but I am not sure he is the type of 2nd Banana people are looking for. My point is the draft wont bring us back to NBA title contention by itself. We are going to need to make 1-2 major moves in the next year and a half on top of the draft. There is no way around it!
     
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  17. CleveRocks

    CleveRocks There go the Cavs!

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    Noels looks to be the better answer for the team we are assembling in my opinion. I think he will track closer to Garnett... However I would not argue with having 2 Zellers.
     
  18. Free Agency God

    Free Agency God Birthing All-Stars

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    How the hell will Noel be anything like Garnett? He has no offensive game whatsoever. End of story. If anyone is going to be the next Garnett, it'll be Anthony Davis. Noel wishes he was Anthony Davis.

    This team functions best when everyone can shoot and run the floor well. Len can shoot very well for a big man. Noel can't shoot at all. Len is also even longer than Noel at 7'1" and a 7'5" wingspan. He also has the frame to defend the post whereas Noel will be questionable in that area. Len can also post up and he can shot block very well. We're in dire need of big men who can score. Len fits that mold much better than Noel, and Len is great on defense as well.

    I don't think it's any question that Len fits infinitely better for this team than Noel.
     
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  19. NarlCavs

    NarlCavs Gold Star Member

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    It's been proven you need stars to win championships in the NBA. In the last 33 years there's really been only 2 teams (Lenny Wilkens late 70's Seattle team and the Billups/Hamilton/Wallaces Pistons team) that won a title without what most would consider multiple star/superstar caliber players.
    That is why the Cavs have to hit it big on these top draft picks they've been getting. That is the most likely and quite possibly only way they're going to be able to acquire that level of talent.
     
  20. Jon

    Jon ~

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    Which of course means it's been disproven. :)

    I think most would throw Dallas, Houston, and perhaps Washington in that group as well. The recent Celtics team is a dubious just because their superstar/star players were so far past their prime when they got together. Similarly I think the reputation of guys like Parker, Ginobili, Odom, Bynum, and Gasol are raised *because* their teams won championships.

    Could the Spurs have won their championships with Billups and Hamilton rather than Parker and Ginobili? Perhaps.

    If the Knicks or Nets ever actually win something - just watch and gape at who that media mecca immortalizes as a "superstar". Heck, it was funny listening to them argue that Felton should be an All Star for his performance this year and outright dismissing Kyrie because even though we're months away from the All Star game, in their opinion he hadn't played enough games. lol

    There's no doubt the tank-a-holics on the board feel that we must draft multiple star players, but we wouldn't even have Irving if not for a trade where the only thing of substance we gave up was cap space.
     
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