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Phil Savage

Discussion in 'Browns Talk' started by Mac, Oct 10, 2006.

  1. Mac

    Mac Slow Motion See Me Let Go

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    Just want to look at some of the moves that he has made..

    Kenard Lang, Courtney Brown, Gerard Warren, Ekuban Ebenezer, Anthony Henry, Chris Crocker, Michael Lehan, Melvin Fowler, and probably more, thats just off the top of my head.

    All defensive players let go or traded by Savage that are now starting elsewhere, all of those DL, where we are HURTING are starting for one of the best defensive units in the NFL. I dont dislike Baxter, but Id choose Henry everyday of the week over him..

    Traded a FOURTH ROUND DRAFT PICK for Trent Dilfer.

    Traded Faine away for nothing. Who is starting for the 4-1 Saints. Traded Fowler for nothing who is starting for the Buffalo Bills.

    Lets look at his drafting..

    I like Wimbley and Edwards, it's hard to miss in the first round, but after that it gets realllll shakey.

    Third Round-Travis Wilson, inactive all year.
    Fourth round-Leon Williams, inactive for four of five games, didnt play in the one game he was active.
    Fifth Round-Demario Minter-Placed on PUP list for no apparent reason, cant find why.
    Sixth Round-Vickers....had Terrelle Smith, he is useless.
    Sixth Round-Baba Oshinowo, cut twice, on practice squad.
    Seventh Round-Justin Hamilton-Played ST first game, hasnt played since, including three games inactive.

    2005 draft.
    Fourth Round-Antonio Perkins, he is on the roster but instead of playing DB like he is supposed to, we have to move safties over and sign bums off the street. Likely to be cut at theend of the year. Played STs in one game this year, vs Oakland, inactive for the other four.

    Fifth Round-David McMillan-Played special teams one game this year, inactive the other four.

    Sixth Round-Nick Speegle, not on team anymore
    Sixth Round-Andrew Hoffman-not on team

    Seventh Round-Jon Dunn, not on team

    So of the two years he has drafted, we have Braylon Edwards, Brodney Pool, Charlie Frye, Jerome Harrison, DeQwell Jackson, and Wimbley.

    So thats four starters, Frye shouldnt count but Ill allow it, and two back ups to account for our last two years drafting.

    McGinnest is looking like a bad signing every day of the week. Ted Washington is old. Bax and Charles are injured.

    Savage needs to step it up big time, because so far as a GM, he has sucked it up. I don't understand why he is getting such a free pass, but it is clear to see that he isn't do many things positive for this team.
     
  2. CornerThree

    CornerThree 13-7-9-14

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    Faine for the right to move up and take Jackson is a fair deal. Considering that Bentley was going to be the starter. It was basically like trading Faine for an early 4th rounder and then combining that with the 2nd in order to move up.
     
  3. DawgOnKing

    DawgOnKing Confused Spouse/Parent

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    I'm out the door for work in 20 mins, so I don't have time to respond to the entire post. I will try to later on in the week. A few points however......

    Kenard Lang- Failed miserably in conversion from DE to LB a year ago. We don't need any more LB's with what we drafted. Don't miss him one bit.

    Courtney Brown- Hurt again this year. Played sparingly. Butch bust #1. Zero sacks this year.

    Gerard Warren- Hurt this year. Played sparingly. Butch bust #2. Zero sacks this year.

    Ekuban Ebenezer- Playing well thus far, but do we need another down linemen on D? Would have been nice to play him the week Roye was hurt, but Fraser played great.

    Anthony Henry- Butch burned this bridge beyond repair. Nothing Savage could have done or offered A.H. to stay in Cleveland. Well documented.

    Chris Crocker- Traded when Bodden stepped up.

    Michael Lehan- 4 tackles, no INT, no sacks in 5 games.

    Melvin Fowler- Expendable when we got Bentley at C. Know one knew he wouldn't play a game in '06.


    Good.

    No one can plan for the type of injuries we've had at Center. No way. Was literally a soap opera for the entirety of training camp. I don't miss Faine one bit. He was average at best in every year he put on the orange helmet. You can't argue otherwise.



    Draft will have to wait for another day. I agree he's been less then stellar thus far however. See ya. Enjoy the Cavs tonight! I'll be in Pittsburgh. :(
     
  4. Mac

    Mac Slow Motion See Me Let Go

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    Couldnt disagree with you more.

    Lang is DE, it was stupid to try to move a guy that has been an end his entire life to LB. He is now an end in Denver and playing well. Warren is not injured and is playing very well, commanding a double team almost every down, just like he did here. People said he was over rated here, but had the same stats as Seymour, the probowler from NE.

    Brown is hurt, but he did play well last year.

    It is well documented that he and Butch had a bad relationship, however, he was very open to coming back because he knew there was new management. Dallas stepped to the plate, we didn't. We didnt even make an attempt.

    Bodden had nothing to do with Crocker, well because, they dont even play the same position. So, yeah...anyways.

    Fowler was traded a year before Bentley, do you even pay attention to the Browns?

    And you think it is good that we traded a fourth round draft pick for a useless QB? Next..

    Faine was not an average C, he is in the upper half of the league. The problem is this team has some dilusional thinking that we are a smash mouth football team, which we arent and never will be, so we got rid of the guy for nothing. Ill take Bentley every day of the week over him, dont get me wrong, but atleast get something for the guy if you trade him.

    People complained about Butch trading a second rounder to get Winslow, well atleast we got a damned good player out of it. Jackson hasnt shown much yet....which isnt surprising out of Savage's draft.
     
  5. cavincali

    cavincali California's finest

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    Crocker had to go, he had no upside. Would you rather have Crocker or Sean Jones.

    Thus far Sean Jones has stepped up.
     
  6. Mac

    Mac Slow Motion See Me Let Go

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    Point is, he gave him away for nothing and he is depth that could help this team. Not saying Jones isnt better, but he was still an NFL player on a team that needs backups.
     
  7. PIP

    PIP Orange and Blue Staff Member

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    I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Savage just yet.. I like his pro active approach.. However, if he can't improve our O-line from the guard spots, and our run stopper on the d-line this upcoming draft/free agency, then I will change my stance.. Also, if Mo Carthon is here for '07, then there's indeed a problem..

    The Fullback fetish is ridiculous...

    Just improve the line, get a QB that has a brain & arm, get a run stopper, and get a coordinator... We'll be on our way...
     
  8. DawgOnKing

    DawgOnKing Confused Spouse/Parent

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    The Plain Dealer and many other sources must of gotten hold of some bad info then.

    When you consider that McCutchen became the 5th DB. Yeah....anyways.

    You know Melvin Fowler could still be on the roster for all I know. Who really gives a sh*t. He's not booking tickets to Honolulu anytime soon.

    At the time I could see exactly what Savage was doing and yes, I think it was a fine move. We recieved a fourth round pick that year as well, so essentially it was a straight up swap.

    I respectfully disagree.
     
  9. Mac

    Mac Slow Motion See Me Let Go

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    Crocker is not a DB, what do you not understand about that?

    The PD is correct in the fact that Butch ran AH out of town, but he never said he wouldnt play for the new regime.
     
  10. bomber

    bomber Abrasive

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    Mac, first of all Leon williams plays I believe every game. He plays on the special teams, he's the one who recovered the fumble v carolina which was later overturned.

    Lang and Ekuban, I've always liked but it sure looked like they weren't gonna fit our scheme. Both 4-3 de's, not 3-4 ends. Plus they wanted to change house from different regimes which EVERYONE does often. Wait until you get into the business world, different managers, companies they want their OWN people and get rid of people that aren't their own.

    Which also includes, Brown and Warren which I think is self explanatory, they were bad and underachivers.

    Lehan - could never stay healthy

    Crocker - agree on that one, don't know why he was traded.

    Fowler - Really don't know why he was trade sure could use for depth

    Henry - I thought he already signed with the boys and savage could do nothing about. Don't remember all the details but I agree I sure wanted him back.

    Faine-I agree I wanted him for depth. Was D'qwell worth Faine? D. Jackson doesn't look bad, I'd give him time before we right him off. What Savage's mistake was paying a price to move up to get "his guy" when he could have just sat and got someone of equal value at that pick. but then again we don't know the full story, maybe Faine burned bridges, the coaches didn't like him etc..

    Don't forget Savage signed cribbs as a udfa

    As for Perkins, he was hurt basicly all training camp, can't just throw him back in right away.

    Minter had knee surgey, he's running in straight lines now and will be re-evaluated when he can return soon.

    I'm with you all the way Mac, bash him for not taking OL, DL on the first day of his drafts. I just can't understand it, were old and we get man handeled on the lines. If he doesn't seriously address it this year he will catch alot of shit from fans.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2006
  11. bomber

    bomber Abrasive

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    Yeah dude Crocker was/is a Safety
     
  12. Smooth

    Smooth Vatreni

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    Yeah, but's he was a late signing.. And as of now, we are 4 deep at the WR position...

    What?

    I am pretty sure that he has been active for every game this season.. Because I recently just read an article that he has been an key player on special teams..

    This guy was drafted in the 4th round because of his tremendous physical skills.. He just needs a coach like Romeo Crennel to coach him up..

    We were also pretty weak at the ILB and needed a backup there...

    He had knee surgery during Training Camp...

    If you have noticed, a lot of teams are going for multi-purpose FB's.. Smith is very one dimensional, but he does a great job at what he does..

    As of now, they are trying to groom Vickers for the future and as a short-yardage/goal line runner...

    Honestly, this has been my only disappointment of his draft.. The guy was too small from the start to be a NT...

    At that point in the draft, I was hoping for a guy like Bruce Gradkowski or Greg Eslinger (C)...

    In the preseason he's looked pretty good.. He's a very big hard-hitting safety..

    I agree with this bust.. He's had problems with his knees all throughout his career..

    His DB skills are average at best.. That's why we've called guys in from the streets..

    He was mainly brought in to be a punt return/kick return guy but Northcutt and Cribbs are the main guys..

    A very good pass rusher, I must say as an observer of him..

    He COULD be the heir apparent to Willie McGinest... He's shown pretty solid progression from last year..


    That's 6 players that contribute on a regular basis.. If you ask me 3 players like draft is pretty solid...

    The main thing that I am happy about, is the fact Savage knows his frist day picks and knows how to handle them.. So far, none of this first day picks have been busts like the previous regimes... I can handle a guy who has trouble drafting the second day but does very well the first day..

    Probably one of the worst things about the old regime was the fact they couldn't get production out of their first day picks.. But, they did find guys like Andra Davis and Anthon y Henry...

    So with that said, wouldn't you rather have a guy like Savage? Who doesn't WASTE his first day picks?

    So far 4 out of the 6 first day picks the last 2 drafts are starters now: Charlie Frye, Braylon Edwards, D'Qwell Jackson, and Kamerion Wimbley..


    McGinnest has been hampered by injuries.. Can't do anything about that..

    Washington was a okay signing.. Hasn't been the best but he has done some good things...

    Baxter had NO previous record of injury before coming to Cleveland.. Go back and look.. He's just had bad luck...


    I wouldn't say big time, but he does need to step it up..

    And why does he get a free pass?

    Go back and look at our starting roster, with everyone healthy 2 years ago , when he inherited the job... And look at our starting lineup, with everyone healthy, at the beginning of the year... That's why....
     
  13. Smooth

    Smooth Vatreni

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    Limited upside...

    Not really the biggest guy either...

    Wasn't progressing that much... Plus we traded him for I believe for Nat Dorsey, to be a future starter at T...

    Henry - I thought he already signed with the boys and savage could do nothing about. Don't remember all the details but I agree I sure wanted him back.

    Doesn't matter.. Faine said he didn't want to be a backup center.. So basically he forced his way out..

    Savage needed to draft guys like Braylon.. When he inherited this team, we were one of the least talented teams in the NFL.. We needed some game changers, playmakers etc..

    So now, look for some Lineman in the upcoming drafts..
     
  14. Deadlock

    Deadlock Have Faith

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    Don't like Savagae at all. He gives away to many quality players for nothing. But besides that we never get an o-line. I can't remember ever having a decent o-line since the browns come back. If you have a steller o-line you will hae a good running/passing game. Offensive line makes the RB look good along with the QB and the whole offence.
     
  15. cavincali

    cavincali California's finest

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    Reading what you guys have to say about the oline is ridiculous.

    Savage got Bentley, he got the best center in the NFL and he got hurt. He got hurt for the first time in his career. He also got a LT, but isnt very good. He had a solid backup in Hallen, he quit. The guards we all knew had to be fixed but the most important problems he addressed.

    Schaffer hasnt panned out, but he seemed adequate as a replacement for shelton.

    Who knew Bentley was going to get hurt?

    If you look at teams with solid o-lines there is one consistant trend, continuity. We have new players on the line every single year.
     
  16. Mac

    Mac Slow Motion See Me Let Go

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    Def like the discussion in this thread..

    A couple of things from my part and then i will go in detail later cause Im at school, looking at the stats, it said Leon hasnt played in four games I believe, so maybe ESPN.com is wrong in that part.

    And Minter, I was looking all over for why he was the PUP and I couldnt see it, so thanks for bringing that up,.
     
  17. Style

    Style Gold Star Member

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    Cali, you and some others in this thread seem like you want to give Savage credit just for trying. You don't get a good score just for trying. Schaffer may have seemed like an adequate replacement for Shelton, but he's awful. It's the job of the GM and his underlings to scout and evaluate players, to figure out who is actually good, who fits in their system, etc. Trying and failing is still failing.

    I haven't totally given up on Savage yet. I think he's head and shoulders ahead of the past regimes, but that's not saying anything. In all honesty, I could of done better than Clark and Davis. Still, I feel better than I did two years ago.

    At this point I have 3 big complaints with Opie Cunningham (Savage):

    1 - Not drafting linemen. The game is won in the trenches. Phil hasn't drafted any linemen high, and the Browns have zero young talent on the OL and DL. IMO, in your top 4 draft picks you should have at least 1 OL and 1 DL EVERY YEAR! Savage gets an F in this category. An F actually isn't even harsh enough.
    2 - Giving away players with value. This has been documented through out this thread.
    3 - Putting a team on the field without a starting caliber NFL QB. Two years in a row under Opie, and all he's give RAC to choose from to fill the most important position on the field is backups. To be honest, this year I don't know that the Browns QBs are even quality backups. What's worse, finding a QB has never been a strength of the teams Phil has been involved with. Kyle Boller anyone?

    Getting three quality starters a draft is actually not too bad. If you can draft three quality starters and 3 quality backups every year, you would be one of the elite GMs. If he can keep getting us players through the draft, add some young talent to our lines, stop giving away players with value, and land us a real QB, I'll be thrilled.

    Oh, and he needs to whack Carthon, obviuosly.
     
  18. CornerThree

    CornerThree 13-7-9-14

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    Next year, I think the team could greatly improve if he were to sign someone like Michael Turner to play RB, and draft some linemen. Bentley is a great center, so hopefully it will allow the guards to help out more with the premeire pass rushers, as LeCharles can take the DT's more one on one.

    And a lot of the guys they got rid of had to go cause of their costs, etc. Obviously Warren and Brown were somewhat effective starters elsewhere last year, but a main factor of that was that they were most likely willing to take significant pay cuts to play somewhere else, versus what they were demanding the Browns to pay them. If a guy's base salary is 6 million, plus he counts another 3 million in bonus(for a 9 million dollar cap hit), if he's not willing to drop his base salary by a few million your only options are to cut or trade him.
     
  19. bomber

    bomber Abrasive

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    Cali our gaurds suck, especially Andruzzi.
     
  20. bomber

    bomber Abrasive

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    Style, I agree with just about everything you said except Frye. I give him the benefit of the doubt right now. You, me and many others agree our o-line is bad along with mo. Shouldn't that reflect a bit on your assessment on Frye? He should be given some leeway seeing, he is still a young starting qb.

    I mean look at Grossman, it took him what 3+ years, now look at him. Everyone's already starting to write frye off after starting what 7 games?

    The bears finally got a good o coordinator now look at them.

    Fix our o-line and get a new coordinator, then I say we should re-evaluate charlie.
     

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